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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 12, 2021 11:58:54 GMT -5
Are you serious?
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Post by joutsHC77 on Feb 12, 2021 12:42:24 GMT -5
Many snowflakes in academia today. Their feelings are always getting hurt. Laughable. I quit my 40 plus year position as a HC class agent and have not contributed one cent since HC’s leftist administration and BOT dropped the Crusader.
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Post by crusader12 on Feb 12, 2021 12:44:52 GMT -5
Many snowflakes in academia today. Their feelings are always getting hurt. Laughable. I quit my 40 plus year position as a HC class agent and have not contributed one cent since HC’s leftist administration and BOT dropped the Crusader. Same
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Post by alum on Feb 12, 2021 13:58:28 GMT -5
Serious question: If a donor offered the College $20 million to drop the name Cruaders and replace it with "Purple," should they take the dough and order tee shirts with the new name? How about $50 million? $100 million?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 12, 2021 14:11:59 GMT -5
Serious question: If a donor offered the College $20 million to drop the name Cruaders and replace it with "Purple," should they take the dough and order tee shirts with the new name? How about $50 million? $100 million? "You sell your soul a little bit at a time"
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Post by alum on Feb 12, 2021 14:19:04 GMT -5
Serious question: If a donor offered the College $20 million to drop the name Cruaders and replace it with "Purple," should they take the dough and order tee shirts with the new name? How about $50 million? $100 million? "You sell your soul a little bit at a time" I guess that's begs the question. Is the Crusader name part of the College's soul or is it just a garment it wears?
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Post by Crucis#1 on Feb 12, 2021 14:20:51 GMT -5
For those who are not aware of the history of Valparaiso University, the Lutheran Church in the 1920’s purchased Valpo to prevent it from becoming a Ku Klux Kollege. He is an article found on the Indiana government site. After reading the article, one will have a better understanding of why Valpo has made the change. blog.newspapers.library.in.gov/ku-klux-u-how-the-klan-almost-bought-a-university/Here is an excerpt from the article, that should hit home for many of us. Less we forget...... “For some residents of Valparaiso — which hosted a parade of at least 5,000 Klansmen in May 1923, an event that attracted 30,000 visitors from around the Midwest — the offer to take over the struggling school seemed like a God-send. Academics, alumni, and many students, especially “undesirable” Catholics and Jews, thought differently. Many teachers and students were ready to pack up and leave.” Another notation that should strike home to all of us.... “The “Second” Klan defined itself as a hyper-patriotic organization of white Protestant Americans and was more mainstream than at any other point in its history. During the ’20s, the Klan was less concerned with suppressing African Americans than with stemming the tide of new immigration coming from Southern and Eastern Europe — including to heavily-industrial towns like Gary, just thirty miles from Valparaiso. The Klan sought to cripple an imaginary conspiracy contending that Catholics wanted to destroy American public schools and hand the U.S. government over to the Pope. It also warned of the activities of “Jewish Communists” and anarchists in the wake of the Russian Revolution and the 1919 Red Scare. (The fear provoked by deadly anarchist bombings wasn’t entirely groundless, however.) Prohibition of alcohol, another cause taken up by the KKK, was a barely concealed way to crack down on immigrant culture.”
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Post by Crucis#1 on Feb 12, 2021 14:56:38 GMT -5
In July of 1969, I saw first hand the similarities of the Holy Cross athletic logo and an Billboard advertising recruitment of the Klan. I still see in my mind, the billboard that I recall in horror. The billboard was in Wilson North Carolina, was just off of I95 (now the intersection of I795) with the connection to Rt117. It was a large red sign with white lettering and a knight on a horse, an exact duplicate of the old ‘Sader on the horse’, that was used by HC until the 1990’s. The billboard was sponsored by the United Klans of America with the following wording “ Join the United Klans of America. Help Fight Communism, Socialism and Integration”. I would guess that very few reading Crossports have ever seen a Klan recruitment billboard. Very few also have been exposed to the virulent anti Catholicism and “Know Nothing” philosophy that the organization still embraces. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_NothingReflecting back to that very early morning encounter in NC, and seeing the appropriation by the Klan of the Crusader logo provides a clear understanding to me why organizations and schools want to change their branding image.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 12, 2021 15:18:15 GMT -5
The Tamil Tigers caused thousands of deaths in Sri Lanka--should Auburn, Clemson, LSU, Memphis, Princeton, Missouri et al change their mascot? I think not. The misuse or abuse by one party should not affect the proper use by other parties
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Post by alum on Feb 12, 2021 15:34:46 GMT -5
The Tamil Tigers caused thousands of deaths in Sri Lanka--should Auburn, Clemson, LSU, Memphis, Princeton, Missouri et al change their mascot? I think not. The misuse or abuse by one party should not affect the proper use by other parties I pretty much agree with you about this part of the story. The use of the Crusader name by the Klan doesn't necessitate changing the name by itself. When Colin Kapernick wanted to take a knee to protest the treatment of Black Americans, all sorts of people insisted that he was really saying he hated the troops. It was wrong of people to insist he had a different motive. Then, Kapernick complained about Nike, his sponsor, using the Betsy Ross flag on a pair of sneakers because some white supremacist groups had adopted it as a symbol. Even though this was not widespread and the ADL didn't list that flag as a symbol of hate, Nike acceded to that request, as was their right. I wouldn't have been bothered if they told Kapernick that they didn't think some a-holes should get to redefine a symbol not traditionally associated with hate groups. (I know that some oppose all pre Civil War flags because they were used during slavery, but as I recall that wasn't Kapernick's original point.)
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Post by rgs318 on Feb 12, 2021 15:45:50 GMT -5
That encounter with Klan recruiting ads must have been upsetting. But what if the Klan changes its logo? At what point do we dig in our heels and say enough? I think that may have been what Fr. B. did with his decision about the Crusader, separating the mascot from the nickname.
I have encountered the Klan a number of times. When sailing out to Fire Island our family swas stuck there overnight by a thunderstorm. That night we could see the light of a large fire down the beach. In the morning we walked down the beach and found the ash of a huge bonfire and, in the grasses, a Klan hood. To get away with that on park land, some of the rangers had to be involved.
Coming home from a Civil War Reenactment through a forest area in North Carolina we felt a car was following us. It flashed its headlights and we pulled over. The driver got out and walked up to us. He said he was part of a group looking for new members and gave us an invitation to a Klan rally, saying we would be welcome. With all of us being Jews or Catholics, we decided to just take gthe flyer and to move on...quickly. (BTW, the Klan now takes Catholics as members. Was "thrilled" to hear that.)
I can understand why people want nothing to do with the Klan., but I do not want to allow them to have control over my life and choices. I was unaware of Valpo's history with the Klan. Their decision is very different from that of HC and I can understand it.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 12, 2021 16:08:39 GMT -5
Just for perspective, a 2017 study by the ADL estimated that were were 30 Klan groups in the country with perhaps 3,000 total members
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Post by Tom on Feb 12, 2021 16:17:04 GMT -5
Serious question:
If a bunch of bad people with a disgusting philosophy embrace noble symbols to somehow make that philosophy seem acceptable, should good people abandon the symbol?
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Post by Crucis#1 on Feb 12, 2021 16:17:25 GMT -5
Klan Billboard late 1960’s. Article from the Raleigh New and Observer. The billboard I saw was similar to the pictures displayed in the article below. THE Knight on the billboard was very close in resemblance to the old HC logo. www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article232986152.html
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Post by Crucis#1 on Feb 12, 2021 17:08:03 GMT -5
Serious question: If a bunch of bad people with a disgusting philosophy embrace noble symbols to somehow make that philosophy seem acceptable, should good people abandon the symbol? Serious answer....Yes! A symbol that was found in South Asian and Sanskrit culture was appropriated by a cult in the 1930’s. That symbol is now “verboten”. I believe we all know the history why it can no longer be used in Germany, and should not be used anywhere.... period! Valpo’s use of Crusader imagery they have found to be detrimental to the school’s recruiting efforts. One can continually to be an ostrich and say while it may hurt Valpo, it has nothing to due with HC. I disagree. In 2002, about seven months after 9/11, I met Alan Harre, then president of Valparaiso. When I discussed that HC and Valpo should be playing as a battle of the “Crusaders”, he seemed very uncomfortable with the Crusader imagery. The same was the reaction by the former Executive Director of the Patriot League, Carolyn Schlie Femovich, who is a graduate of Valparaiso. I spoke to her at a PL championship basketball game in the Hart Center. She did not embrace the idea of a game between the two institutions with that imagery. It would be of interest if an independent survey was conducted among high school students regarding the use of the Crusader name and imagery to determine if it is detrimental to HC recruitment of students as well as student athletes. The same survey may find it to be true regarding fund raising efforts with major foundations. While the old guard continues to hold onto past imagery for a college, the clutching to nostalgia may be causing It to loose students, and athletes who would enjoy the education, but are weary of the mascot association. An example is Elon... a school that 30 years ago was unknown in the Northeast. Reviewing their current admissions profile they had 15,306 applications. Over twice the number as HC. Top states being NC, MA, NJ, NY, VA and MD. In case you are unaware, the mascot was changed to the “Phoenix” from “The Fighting Christians”. Seems like the change has been beneficial.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Feb 12, 2021 17:17:04 GMT -5
That encounter with Klan recruiting ads must have been upsetting. But what if the Klan changes its logo? At what point do we dig in our heels and say enough? I think that may have been what Fr. B. did with his decision about the Crusader, separating the mascot from the nickname. I have encountered the Klan a number of times. When sailing out to Fire Island our family swas stuck there overnight by a thunderstorm. That night we could see the light of a large fire down the beach. In the morning we walked down the beach and found the ash of a huge bonfire and, in the grasses, a Klan hood. To get away with that on park land, some of the rangers had to be involved. Coming home from a Civil War Reenactment through a forest area in North Carolina we felt a car was following us. It flashed its headlights and we pulled over. The driver got out and walked up to us. He said he was part of a group looking for new members and gave us an invitation to a Klan rally, saying we would be welcome. With all of us being Jews or Catholics, we decided to just take gthe flyer and to move on...quickly. (BTW, the Klan now takes Catholics as members. Was "thrilled" to hear that.) I can understand why people want nothing to do with the Klan., but I do not want to allow them to have control over my life and choices. I was unaware of Valpo's history with the Klan. Their decision is very different from that of HC and I can understand it. Can you imagine the encounter, if you was of another ethnicity? The outcome of the meeting may have not been as “Pleasant”.and relatively “Benign”. Hope you are vigilant in future travels.
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Post by crusader12 on Feb 12, 2021 18:26:49 GMT -5
I don’t really see any issue with this topic. Exactly. LIBERATE CROSSPORTS!
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Post by rgs318 on Feb 12, 2021 18:35:34 GMT -5
I certainly can imagine that. As reenactors we are always vigilant. I also taught parolees in recovery in Paterson, NJ and was vigilant there as well.
As to Tom's earlier question, no.
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Post by Tom on Feb 12, 2021 18:53:56 GMT -5
Serious question: If a bunch of bad people with a disgusting philosophy embrace noble symbols to somehow make that philosophy seem acceptable, should good people abandon the symbol? Serious answer....Yes! A symbol that was found in South Asian and Sanskrit culture was appropriated by a cult in the 1930’s. That symbol is now “verboten”. I believe we all know the history why it can no longer being used in Germany, and should not be used anywhere.... period! Valpo’s use of Crusader imagery they have found to be detrimental to the school’s recruiting efforts. One can continually to be an ostrich and say while it may hurt Valpo, it has nothing to due with HC. I disagree. In 2002, about seven months after 9/11, I met Alan Harre, then president of Valparaiso. When I discussed that HC and Valpo should be playing as a battle of the “Crusaders”, he seemed very uncomfortable with the Crusader imagery. The same was the reaction by the former Executive Director of the Patriot League, Carolyn Schlie Femovich, who is a graduate of Valparaiso. I spoke to her at a PL championship basketball game in the Hart Center. She did not embrace the idea of a game between the two institutions with that imagery. It would be of interest if an independent survey was conducted among high school students regarding the use of the Crusader name and imagery to determine if it is detrimental to HC recruitment of students as well as student athletes. The same survey may find it to be true regarding fun raising efforts with major foundations. While the old guard continues to hold onto past imagery for a college, the clutching to nostalgia may be causing It to loose students, and athletes who would enjoy the education, but are weary of the mascot association. An example is Elon... a school that 30 years ago was unknown in the Northeast. Reviewing their current admissions profile they had 15,306. Over twice the number as HC. Top states being NC, MA, NJ, NY, VA and MD. In case you are unaware, the mascot was changed to the “Phoenix” from “The Fighting Christians”. Seems like the change has been beneficial. How about if I take this to a different extreme. The KKK claims to be a Christian group even if their doctrine goes against every Christian principle. They proudly display the most widely known Christian symbol. There is a cross clearly displayed in that NC recruiting billboard shown earlier in the thread. I do not think anyone (including Holy Cross) should retreat from a Christian heritage or Cross symbol because a disgusting group tries to co opt them. It's like letting the bad guys win. If Holy Cross could attract more applicants by changing the name to Worcester College, that doesn't mean they should. I don't care how many people don't like that image. Obviously, this is an extreme example and the Crusader nickname is not as central to the school's core values as the term Cross. However, there is a point where one should not yield to a small but vocal minority. I understand that this is also a gray line because sometimes you should yield to the vocal minority. There are people (with whom I disagree) that would equate the Crusader to the stars and bars over the SC state capital. I just think that there are some very vocal people out there whose definition of "offensive" is way too expansive
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Post by Crucis#1 on Feb 12, 2021 19:12:47 GMT -5
Might does not make right regarding numbers. The women’s suffrage and the civil right’s movement was launched by a small but vocal minority.
If the cause is morally just, it should be given consideration to be addressed.
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Post by Dean Wormer on Feb 12, 2021 19:15:28 GMT -5
Merged all the Valpo name change threads into one thread under the appropriate topic.
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Post by Tom on Feb 13, 2021 8:35:43 GMT -5
Might does not make right regarding numbers. The women’s suffrage and the civil right’s movement was launched by a small but vocal minority. If the cause is morally just, it should be given consideration to be addressed. I totally agree. However, the fact that a minority labels something as immoral does not make it so. A minority of Americans think that consuming alcohol is immoral. That opinion does not make it so. Furthermore the rest of us should not be forced to abstain from alcohol because some people slapped the label immoral on it. I put the Crusader in this category, not in the civil rights category. There are some people that think it is wrong for me to identify myself as a Crusader and that it is a morally just cause to eliminate that nickname. One might even say they're on a crusade to eliminate the name Crusader. I disagree with the idea that the nickname is a case of right or wrong. It's just a choice. Other than Siena basically every nickname as some good and bad to it - kind of like life. People are entitled to their opinions. That does not mean I have to adjust my behavior every time a handful of people label something as a morally just cause
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Post by CHC8485 on Feb 13, 2021 10:08:25 GMT -5
Ah, Tom, as we have known all along about many saints and further illustrated as we learned more about St. John Paul, a saint many of us “knew” in life, even saints have some serious failings. So even Siena has some bad reflected in their nickname. 😃
And of course Siena has McCrybaby on their record as well. 😜
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 13, 2021 10:27:56 GMT -5
Great post, Tom--really puts things in proper perspective
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Post by Chu Chu on Feb 14, 2021 15:59:56 GMT -5
The article in the New York Times is interesting. Note that the move was approved by all university stakeholders, including students. www.nytimes.com/2021/02/11/sports/valparaiso-drops-crusader-mascot.html?searchResultPosition=1Valparaiso U. Drops Crusader as Mascot, Citing Ties to Hate Groups The private university in Indiana, which is affiliated with the Lutheran Church, said the Crusader name could be associated with “aggressive religious oppression and violence.” By Neil Vigdor Feb. 11, 2021 Valparaiso University, which is known for one of the biggest upsets in the history of the N.C.A.A. Division I men’s basketball tournament by a mid-major athletic program, announced on Thursday that it was dropping the Crusader as its mascot because of its association with hate groups and violence. In a video posted on Facebook by the private university, which is in Indiana and is affiliated with the Lutheran Church, the university’s interim president and the student body president said that the Crusader mascot had developed a negative connotation and that it no longer reflected the institution’s values. The university, whose name is frequently shortened to Valpo, adopted the Crusader as its mascot in 1942, a nod to the Christian conquests of the Holy Land from the 11th century to the 13th century that pitted European invaders against Muslims. The mascot costume features a suit of armor, a helmet and a shield. A new mascot has yet to be announced by the university, which became the latest notable entry on a list of professional sports franchises and collegiate athletic programs — led by the Cleveland Indians of Major League Baseball and the N.F.L.’s Washington football team — that have abandoned their team names amid a nationwide reckoning over such symbols. Colette Irwin-Knott, the university’s interim president, said in the video that the Crusader mascot had been under scrutiny during the past few decades, “as it can be associated with aggressive religious oppression and violence.” “Unfortunately, the Crusader and its symbols related to the Crusades have been embraced and displayed by hate groups,” Ms. Irwin-Knott said. “In fact, a newspaper of the K.K.K. carries the name The Crusader, and this is not something we want to be connected with Valparaiso University in any way.” During last month’s deadly siege at the U.S. Capitol, white supremacists brought with them their variant of the Crusader cross, which has become popular among the racist and anti-Semitic fringes. It was not immediately clear if that element of the attack had contributed to the university’s decision to retire the Crusader as its mascot. Ms. Irwin-Knott said a task force of university stakeholders she convened during the fall semester had recommended the change, along with the Faculty Senate and the Student Senate. Kaitlyn Steinhiser, the student body president, said in the video that many students had been eager to see the Crusader retired. “Mascots are intended to help us show our school spirit and represent Valpo values, rather than be divisive and symbolize negativity,” Ms. Steinhiser said. “There has been a growing concern from students on campus about how the current Crusader mascot represents us, as well as how it may impact prospective students’ views of our university.” Valparaiso is not the first higher learning institution to grapple with a Crusader mascot. In 2000, Wheaton College in Illinois ditched the Crusader as its mascot. But the College of the Holy Cross in Worcester, Mass., decided after a review in 2018 to stick with the name Crusaders. At the time, Holy Cross’s president said the college’s definition of Crusader was based on a “contemporary understanding of the term, which suggests a noble effort to support a cause, to right a wrong or to make a difference.” Valparaiso’s most triumphant sporting moment came in the opening round of the 1998 N.C.A.A. men’s basketball tournament when the Crusaders, a No. 13 seed, stunned Mississippi, a No. 4 seed, at the final buzzer on a 3-pointer by Bryce Drew. It became known as the Shot.
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