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Post by HC92 on Mar 18, 2021 13:03:40 GMT -5
HC should be in the Atlantic 10 with UMass, Fordham, LaSalle, St.Bonnie's , URI etc. We do not belong in the PL with our basketball history. We’d have to be willing to make some serious changes to how we think about admissions for student athletes. Even then, could be tough. See Rams, Fordham.
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Post by Tom on Mar 18, 2021 13:07:58 GMT -5
Being a "one bid league" is not carved in stone. If the play of the PL improves, a second bid (in a typical year) could be a possibility. If we want to move forward and upward, it may be necessary to make some changes. Are all OK with the way things are currently? At large distribution P6 conferences got 32 of 37 this year AAC, A-10, MVC, Mountain West, and West Coast each got . Before the power conferences went crazy with expansion and raided the top schools in the next tier, the Missouri Valley or A-10 might have put 4 teams in. The top non power conferences are just getting one at large now. The Patriot League might get an at large some day. If Bucknell got upset in the tournament in 2006, I think they would have gotten one. Years like that are a rarity. I think college hoops in general is moving away from multiple bid leagues so the #9 team from the Big 10 can dance. PL play would have to be dramatically increased before it was a 2 bid league in a typical year. I can't see something that dramatic happening
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Mar 18, 2021 13:09:21 GMT -5
Don’t love our current situation but adding Fairfield and Marist to the PL isn’t the answer. That definitely doesn’t move us in the direction of becoming a two bid league. You got a better shot of hitting the lottery and getting zapped by lightning on the same day that you do of the pL ever becoming a two-bid league.
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Post by trimster on Mar 18, 2021 13:09:22 GMT -5
HC should be in the Atlantic 10 with UMass, Fordham, LaSalle, St.Bonnie's , URI etc. We do not belong in the PL with our basketball history. Should be and where we are miles apart. Our history is ancient history. To put it in context, if we were back in the ECAC days of Potter, Vicens, Perry and Doran, we would be referring to what happened in 1930.
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Post by timholycross on Mar 18, 2021 14:08:32 GMT -5
I like 8 in football. It also ensures that if something happens to one of our football-only members, the league is still viable. Allows an annual end-of-season game w/Gtown or Fordham which the PL frowns on for no good reason.
I'd rather have 12 teams in two divisions w/a 16 game schedule (2 against your division, 1 against the other) than 11 in one division and a double round robin.
So yes to Fairfield if they restore football or there's a 12th member that has it.
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Post by Ignutz on Mar 18, 2021 16:02:08 GMT -5
The PL is lucky it's a one-bid league many years....I'll be here all week, try the veal.... or the corned beef. Leftovers.
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Post by trimster on Mar 18, 2021 16:09:45 GMT -5
HC should be in the Atlantic 10 with UMass, Fordham, LaSalle, St.Bonnie's , URI etc. We do not belong in the PL with our basketball history. We’d have to be willing to make some serious changes to how we think about admissions for student athletes. Even then, could be tough. See Rams, Fordham. You are too young to remember the student-athletes HC had on the basketball squads when HC was last relevant on the national scene in the mid to late 70's. Three were chosen as the outstanding student-athlete in the graduating class, (Crusader of the Year), one earned a dual liberal arts/engineering degree from HC and WPI, another went on to become a PhD. God forbid we admit people like that to win basketball games.
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Post by bison137 on Mar 18, 2021 16:11:36 GMT -5
So yes to Fairfield if they restore football or there's a 12th member that has it. Chance of Fairfield bringing back football is exactly zero, so they'd need to find a 12th member that has it. Other than Marist, there are no possible all-sport candidates. If they look for football only, Villanova is possible (but not likely), and Duquesne might be possible IF they opted to significantly change the AI for them. Neither is very likely.
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Post by timholycross on Mar 18, 2021 16:53:49 GMT -5
Is the gap that Marist would have to make up academically any different than what AU had to make up (IIRC they were seen as having an advantage)? Seems to have worked out for them over the course of 20 years.
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Post by HC92 on Mar 18, 2021 17:01:13 GMT -5
We’d have to be willing to make some serious changes to how we think about admissions for student athletes. Even then, could be tough. See Rams, Fordham. You are too young to remember the student-athletes HC had on the basketball squads when HC was last relevant on the national scene in the mid to late 70's. Three were chosen as the outstanding student-athlete in the graduating class, (Crusader of the Year), one earned a dual liberal arts/engineering degree from HC and WPI, another went on to become a PhD. God forbid we admit people like that to win basketball games. Times have changed since the 1970s. We’ve been trying to win basketball games admitting people like that since I was a young undergrad. Needless to say, we’ve struggled outside of the Willard years to win basketball games in the PL. Would be much worse in the A10 absent a serious change in how we think about our commitment to hoops on all levels, including admissions.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Mar 18, 2021 20:43:32 GMT -5
Another candidate for the PL that no one ever mentions -- Binghamton. Geographically a fit and it's generally considered the top SUNY school academically. They've had some awful basketball teams the past decade but for whatever reason they consistently draw very well -- 4,000+ / a game if I'm not mistaken most years. So you'd think with that level of support, there's an opportunity for that program to change direction fairly quickly.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Mar 18, 2021 20:51:59 GMT -5
Another candidate for the PL that no one ever mentions -- Binghamton. Geographically a fit and it's generally considered the top SUNY school academically. They've had some awful basketball teams the past decade but for whatever reason they consistently draw very well -- 4,000+ / a game if I'm not mistaken most years. So you'd think with that level of support, there's an opportunity for that program to change direction fairly quickly. What possibly makes you thing U of B would have any interest whatsoever in leaving the AE for the pL?
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Post by bison137 on Mar 18, 2021 21:09:49 GMT -5
Another candidate for the PL that no one ever mentions -- Binghamton. Geographically a fit and it's generally considered the top SUNY school academically. They've had some awful basketball teams the past decade but for whatever reason they consistently draw very well -- 4,000+ / a game if I'm not mistaken most years. So you'd think with that level of support, there's an opportunity for that program to change direction fairly quickly. What possibly makes you thing U of B would have any interest whatsoever in leaving the AE for the pL? PL has made it pretty clear that they aren't interested in public schools. Stony Brook found that out years ago. Bing used to draw close to 4000 per game a decade ago. Now they are closer to 2200. Still respectable considering how bad their teams have been. Bing has about 17,000 students.
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Post by bison137 on Mar 18, 2021 21:11:39 GMT -5
Is the gap that Marist would have to make up academically any different than what AU had to make up (IIRC they were seen as having an advantage)? Seems to have worked out for them over the course of 20 years. No difference at all. The biggest advantage to Marist is that they could bring in a football team, if they ever were willing to upgrade recruiting/expenditures.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 18, 2021 22:55:03 GMT -5
Another candidate for the PL that no one ever mentions -- Binghamton. Geographically a fit and it's generally considered the top SUNY school academically. They've had some awful basketball teams the past decade but for whatever reason they consistently draw very well -- 4,000+ / a game if I'm not mistaken most years. So you'd think with that level of support, there's an opportunity for that program to change direction fairly quickly. I'll start driving now and get there in time for basketball season. Selfishly I could attend HC games at Fairfield more easily than against any other PL foe except B.U. Looking at the map Binghamton is a reasonable drive from several PL schools. One drawback is they don't play football. In some ways it would be expansion for the sake of expansion. I was very comfortable with the eight team PL and getting to the NCAA tournament often under RW and the women under BG during his long winning stretch. For that reason I like the smaller configuration of PL football and baseball, too.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Mar 19, 2021 6:56:59 GMT -5
Another candidate for the PL that no one ever mentions -- Binghamton. Geographically a fit and it's generally considered the top SUNY school academically. They've had some awful basketball teams the past decade but for whatever reason they consistently draw very well -- 4,000+ / a game if I'm not mistaken most years. So you'd think with that level of support, there's an opportunity for that program to change direction fairly quickly. What possibly makes you thing U of B would have any interest whatsoever in leaving the AE for the pL? I don't think they necessarily would. But it's not impossible. Plus, I get the impression that the 3 SUNYs want to stay together. When SBU and Albany went to the CAA in football, it was originally reported that they would become full-time members within 2 years. Reason cited at time was that Albany had home court for the AE tourney and wanted to wait. And low and behold the move never happened. So maybe politics additionally involved.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Mar 19, 2021 6:57:52 GMT -5
What possibly makes you thing U of B would have any interest whatsoever in leaving the AE for the pL? PL has made it pretty clear that they aren't interested in public schools. Stony Brook found that out years ago. Bing used to draw close to 4000 per game a decade ago. Now they are closer to 2200. Still respectable considering how bad their teams have been. Bing has about 17,000 students. Unless you're a public school named after two 17th century English monarchs.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 19, 2021 7:21:18 GMT -5
Army and Navy are National public schools and American U. was chartered by Congress.
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Post by HC92 on Mar 19, 2021 7:24:54 GMT -5
Bottom line, PL expansion with any of the schools mentioned in this thread who might have interest in joining does nothing for HC other than maybe allow for a couple of shorter road trips per season. Not enough of a benefit to support expansion imho.
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Post by trimster on Mar 19, 2021 7:31:45 GMT -5
Another candidate for the PL that no one ever mentions -- Binghamton. Geographically a fit and it's generally considered the top SUNY school academically. They've had some awful basketball teams the past decade but for whatever reason they consistently draw very well -- 4,000+ / a game if I'm not mistaken most years. So you'd think with that level of support, there's an opportunity for that program to change direction fairly quickly. I'll start driving now and get there in time for basketball season. Selfishly I could attend HC games at Fairfield more easily than against any other PL foe except B.U. Looking at the map Binghamton is a reasonable drive from several PL schools. One drawback is they don't play football. In some ways it would be expansion for the sake of expansion. I was very comfortable with the eight team PL and getting to the NCAA tournament often under RW and the women under BG during his long winning stretch. For that reason I like the smaller configuration of PL football and baseball, too. There is something to be said for Fairfield being reasonable close to many HC alums in the NYC area. One of the real drawbacks to the PL is many of the other schools are near very few HC alums.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 19, 2021 7:52:33 GMT -5
Another candidate for the PL that no one ever mentions -- Binghamton. Geographically a fit and it's generally considered the top SUNY school academically. They've had some awful basketball teams the past decade but for whatever reason they consistently draw very well -- 4,000+ / a game if I'm not mistaken most years. So you'd think with that level of support, there's an opportunity for that program to change direction fairly quickly. Can’t see any advantage for Binghamton (although it is true schools like Binghamton and SBU are strong academically). I just read online that the Bing admissions director noted a 3% increase in applications this cycle.
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Post by HC92 on Mar 19, 2021 7:55:10 GMT -5
I'll start driving now and get there in time for basketball season. Selfishly I could attend HC games at Fairfield more easily than against any other PL foe except B.U. Looking at the map Binghamton is a reasonable drive from several PL schools. One drawback is they don't play football. In some ways it would be expansion for the sake of expansion. I was very comfortable with the eight team PL and getting to the NCAA tournament often under RW and the women under BG during his long winning stretch. For that reason I like the smaller configuration of PL football and baseball, too. There is something to be said for Fairfield being reasonable close to many HC alums in the NYC area. One of the real drawbacks to the PL is many of the other schools are near very few HC alums. I like the idea of expanding our athletic relationship with Fairfield and playing them in every sport they offer every year. Maybe multiple times in some sports. Don’t think they need to join the PL in order for us to do that.
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Post by alum on Mar 19, 2021 8:09:31 GMT -5
We’d have to be willing to make some serious changes to how we think about admissions for student athletes. Even then, could be tough. See Rams, Fordham. You are too young to remember the student-athletes HC had on the basketball squads when HC was last relevant on the national scene in the mid to late 70's. Three were chosen as the outstanding student-athlete in the graduating class, (Crusader of the Year), one earned a dual liberal arts/engineering degree from HC and WPI, another went on to become a PhD. God forbid we admit people like that to win basketball games. It is certainly true that there have been great student athletes who have played hoops at HC but I can name 5 players recruited in the late 70's and first half of the 80's who flunked out. Some came back and some did not. I think GB was doing his best to keep winning and was cutting some corners. I would also point out that Ivy financial aid was not as generous in those days as it is today and more athletic families had to pay some or all of the tuition at those schools. They get some of the uber smart players we might have gotten with a full scholarship in those days. (I think that this is ever more true in football than basketball.)
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Mar 19, 2021 9:08:17 GMT -5
You are too young to remember the student-athletes HC had on the basketball squads when HC was last relevant on the national scene in the mid to late 70's. Three were chosen as the outstanding student-athlete in the graduating class, (Crusader of the Year), one earned a dual liberal arts/engineering degree from HC and WPI, another went on to become a PhD. God forbid we admit people like that to win basketball games. Times have changed since the 1970s. We’ve been trying to win basketball games admitting people like that since I was a young undergrad. Needless to say, we’ve struggled outside of the Willard years to win basketball games in the PL. Would be much worse in the A10 absent a serious change in how we think about our commitment to hoops on all levels, including admissions. I always hate getting involved in the good old days comparisons, but I can't help myself. I just think any comparisons with the pre internet/cable world are risky at best. In the case of HC, the pro sports stranglehold in this area has also changed things as well.
I just feel we need to be honest. In no way am I trying to compare the level of competition of the PL with the old ECAC of the 70s....but (and it pains me, having cut my non alum teeth on those 70s squads) - when you look at the bottom line, program wise, what was accomplished that hasn't been duplicated or bettered by those Flannery bison squads? They won against power teams, on the road......they won (twice) in the NCAA tournament; and if I'm not mistaken, they cracked the top 25 at one point. Now, no one in the PL has had a preseason top 10 ranking, and no one had a national freshman of the year, but - I'm pretty sure (again, if we accept the fact that it's not HC) you can compare C.J. McCollum with RP Jr., based on the entire body of work.
The challenge for the PL is that there is no margin for error, in anything. You have to have the right coach, who gets the right mix of players.....and maybe finds a hidden gem or two. I also think there needs to be at least 1 (if not more) teams that can really push the top dog, the way the Saders and Bison used to go at it (with AU nipping at their heels). But - it has happened, if we accept that it hasn't been HC that reached the greatest heights in the PL (I hate saying that, res - I know you're smiling at this!)
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Post by trimster on Mar 19, 2021 9:47:00 GMT -5
You are too young to remember the student-athletes HC had on the basketball squads when HC was last relevant on the national scene in the mid to late 70's. Three were chosen as the outstanding student-athlete in the graduating class, (Crusader of the Year), one earned a dual liberal arts/engineering degree from HC and WPI, another went on to become a PhD. God forbid we admit people like that to win basketball games. It is certainly true that there have been great student athletes who have played hoops at HC but I can name 5 players recruited in the late 70's and first half of the 80's who flunked out. Some came back and some did not. I think GB was doing his best to keep winning and was cutting some corners. I would also point out that Ivy financial aid was not as generous in those days as it is today and more athletic families had to pay some or all of the tuition at those schools. They get some of the uber smart players we might have gotten with a full scholarship in those days. (I think that this is ever more true in football than basketball.) Perhaps I am being naive but I don't think GB or any coach in the history of Holy Cross has been able to get recruits admitted to the college, at least in any numbers, that clearly didn't belong at HC. I am sure there are exceptions to what I just wrote but the same can probably be said about some legacy admits. The idea that admissions standards to the college would have to be significantly altered to attract student-athletes to the college to be competitive at a level like the A10 is a concept I have a hard time believing. Being strong in both academics and athletics isn't mutually exclusive.
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