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Post by WCHC Sports on Jun 16, 2021 9:12:55 GMT -5
Pedro was great nearly his whole career, from early on, only got slightly better, and held that level of performance consistently. He was also a pitcher, who threw every five days, never had to hit, and while he was at the peak of the position, did similar things to other players in his generation. He faded fast due to injuries and fatigue on his arm. After his age 33 season, he never threw over 133 innings again, and was retired by 37. Ortiz was trash for a number of years, juiced up and got even bigger, and was the size of an ox in his Red Sox years. He was 40 years old, generated over 5 WAR (tying the 3rd best season in his 20 year career), and hit 38 homers. He hit FORTY-EIGHT doubles, leading the AL. He led the lead in RBI. He led the league in Slugging and OPS. He. Was. 40. Years. Old. If you don't think steroids put him into a different plane of performance relative to "clean" peers, you're representing the stereotype of SAWX fandom. Some of those doubles might have been triples for other players. Papi's heel was a stub by the end of his career as I recall, influencing his decision to retire when he was still one of the best sluggers in the game. Like the disappointment of Grady Little not pulling Pedro when he was out of gas in the 2003 playoffs, I was disappointed with the way the Red Sox handled the celebrating during his final games, coordinated by Dr. Charles Steinberg, the current Woo Sox President. The Red Sox were in the post season in 2016 but all the gala salutes to Ortiz distracted and fatigued him and both he and the Sox fizzled out. He only hit .111 with no HRs after being Mr. Post Season for much of his career. I was disappointed for him because whether he juiced or not he has a great personality and was/is a great ambassador for the game. Sammy Sosa is a great ambassador of the game. AROD is a great ambassador of the game. Lots of people think AROD is fake with the media, but young players love him and would go to his infield camps (Manny Machado, also widely disliked, wore #13 in AROD's honor). Neither will likely ever get a job on the bench, with a team, or the league. Neither will likely ever get into the hall of fame.
My gripe is why Ortiz doesn't get the same scrutiny. Because he has a cool nickname? Because he's undeniably charismatic?
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Post by clmetsfan on Jun 16, 2021 11:29:36 GMT -5
Some of those doubles might have been triples for other players. Papi's heel was a stub by the end of his career as I recall, influencing his decision to retire when he was still one of the best sluggers in the game. Like the disappointment of Grady Little not pulling Pedro when he was out of gas in the 2003 playoffs, I was disappointed with the way the Red Sox handled the celebrating during his final games, coordinated by Dr. Charles Steinberg, the current Woo Sox President. The Red Sox were in the post season in 2016 but all the gala salutes to Ortiz distracted and fatigued him and both he and the Sox fizzled out. He only hit .111 with no HRs after being Mr. Post Season for much of his career. I was disappointed for him because whether he juiced or not he has a great personality and was/is a great ambassador for the game. Sammy Sosa is a great ambassador of the game. AROD is a great ambassador of the game. Lots of people think AROD is fake with the media, but young players love him and would go to his infield camps (Manny Machado, also widely disliked, wore #13 in AROD's honor). Neither will likely ever get a job on the bench, with a team, or the league. Neither will likely ever get into the hall of fame.
My gripe is why Ortiz doesn't get the same scrutiny. Because he has a cool nickname? Because he's undeniably charismatic?
Yep. It's also worth noting that Ortiz started to hit a downward slide after the 2007 WS in his age 33 season (i.e. the age when you'd expect a bulky power hitter to decline) before suddenly finding the fountain of youth again in his late 30s. His three-year stretch from 2008-10 saw a big drop in SLG and ISO, and his bat speed was clearly slowing down if you look at his drop in pull % and hard contact %: www.fangraphs.com/players/david-ortiz/745/stats?position=DH#batted-ballOrtiz was a likely PED user given his metamorphosis from part-time DH to superstar as soon as he went to a team with a whole bunch of PED users, but there are also natural ways for a slugger in his late 20s to suddenly start figuring things out. It's the unnaturally long production late in his 30s and into his 40s (just like Barry Bonds) that really starts raising my eyebrows. But yeah, if you're an outgoing, charismatic guy adored by the fans and the media, you can get away with a lot more than a d---head like Bonds or A-Rod can.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 16, 2021 11:55:40 GMT -5
Nice analysis
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Post by alum on Jun 16, 2021 12:11:20 GMT -5
As far as we know, Ortiz never failed another drug test. Therefore, either he was clean and did it through hard work or it wasn't really very hard to beat the tests. Probably the latter.
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Post by possum on Jun 16, 2021 12:42:13 GMT -5
The reasons Ortiz is not viewed as a steroid pariah like ARod, Sosa, Bonds and others is because he's great with the fans and media plus in the last 20 years he's had more iconic post season hits than all those guys combined.
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 16, 2021 12:42:19 GMT -5
Example of charisma reducing media scrutiny:
"There's nothin' in me except rice and beans."
Followed by laugh with million dollar smile and guffaws from the beat writers.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jun 16, 2021 12:52:44 GMT -5
The reasons Ortiz is not viewed as a steroid pariah like ARod, Sosa, Bonds and others is because he's great with the fans and media plus in the last 20 years he's had more iconic post season hits than all those guys combined. So being cool and nice lets you cheat without consequence, but being a moron or a jerk or disingenuous has the wider world of "baseball" relegate you to the obscurity of history?
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 16, 2021 12:57:36 GMT -5
The reasons Ortiz is not viewed as a steroid pariah like ARod, Sosa, Bonds and others is because he's great with the fans and media plus in the last 20 years he's had more iconic post season hits than all those guys combined. So being cool and nice lets you cheat without consequence, but being a moron or a jerk or disingenuous has the wider world of "baseball" relegate you to the obscurity of history? Arod and Sammy had stats, Papi had CLUTCH. Plus the personality to put a team and a fanbase on his back.
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Post by possum on Jun 16, 2021 13:15:47 GMT -5
When thinking of Ortiz the general fan base sees a lovable teddy bear who got all those big hits on the largest stage. With ARod, Sosa, Bonds and McGwire fans think of steroid cheaters.
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Post by Tom on Jun 16, 2021 14:33:41 GMT -5
Some of those doubles might have been triples for other players. Papi's heel was a stub by the end of his career as I recall, influencing his decision to retire when he was still one of the best sluggers in the game. Like the disappointment of Grady Little not pulling Pedro when he was out of gas in the 2003 playoffs, I was disappointed with the way the Red Sox handled the celebrating during his final games, coordinated by Dr. Charles Steinberg, the current Woo Sox President. The Red Sox were in the post season in 2016 but all the gala salutes to Ortiz distracted and fatigued him and both he and the Sox fizzled out. He only hit .111 with no HRs after being Mr. Post Season for much of his career. I was disappointed for him because whether he juiced or not he has a great personality and was/is a great ambassador for the game. Sammy Sosa is a great ambassador of the game. AROD is a great ambassador of the game. Lots of people think AROD is fake with the media, but young players love him and would go to his infield camps (Manny Machado, also widely disliked, wore #13 in AROD's honor). Neither will likely ever get a job on the bench, with a team, or the league. Neither will likely ever get into the hall of fame.
I am not convinced the steroid boys will never go to Cooperstown. Time will soften opinions. Old time sports writers who are upset their heroes records were broken will retire off the voting rolls. In my opinion the precedent was set with the enshrinement of Gaylord Perry. That being said, Sosa and AROD are in slightly different positions. Sosa was in that group that never "officially" tested positive and was never suspended for illegal substances. AROD was suspended. That might play a factor in the voters' minds
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Post by bfoley82 on Jun 16, 2021 15:07:58 GMT -5
Sammy Sosa is a great ambassador of the game. AROD is a great ambassador of the game. Lots of people think AROD is fake with the media, but young players love him and would go to his infield camps (Manny Machado, also widely disliked, wore #13 in AROD's honor). Neither will likely ever get a job on the bench, with a team, or the league. Neither will likely ever get into the hall of fame.
I am not convinced the steroid boys will never go to Cooperstown. Time will soften opinions. Old time sports writers who are upset their heroes records were broken will retire off the voting rolls. In my opinion the precedent was set with the enshrinement of Gaylord Perry. That being said, Sosa and AROD are in slightly different positions. Sosa was in that group that never "officially" tested positive and was never suspended for illegal substances. AROD was suspended. That might play a factor in the voters' minds Sosa was suspended for corking his bat though ;-)
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jun 16, 2021 19:57:57 GMT -5
The reasons Ortiz is not viewed as a steroid pariah like ARod, Sosa, Bonds and others is because he's great with the fans and media plus in the last 20 years he's had more iconic post season hits than all those guys combined. So being cool and nice lets you cheat without consequence, but being a moron or a jerk or disingenuous has the wider world of "baseball" relegate you to the obscurity of history? The biggest issue I have with the writers is precisely this. Because steroid use was allowed to run rampant for so long, there is a significant chunk of history where we have no black and white answers on exactly who used and when. Even the 2003 list, as you pointed out, isn't official. My hunch is that it's accurate but can't be officially confirmed due to potential lawsuit from the union. This has given the media the ability to exhibit "selective outrage". The suspected steroid users who were pricks to the media (Bonds) will be fighting an uphill battle similar to the plight of Mr. Rose. Those that embarrassed themselves in front of Congress in 2005 (Sosa, McGwire) helped dig their own graves to an extent. Sosa was the most popular player in baseball during his heyday but it came to light later in his career that his happy-go-lucky image was more than a bit fabricated and he was indeed a bit of a douche. Those viewed positively by the media (Ortiz, Pedro) will be given a pass. Those that got caught cheating after MLB Drug Testing officially began (Palmeiro, Manny, A-ROD, Cano) are basically toast. A-ROD has the best shot out of that group if he can etch out a long career as a "baseball contributor". And despite the season-long suspension, he never actually tested positive after testing began in 2004. He was connected to HGH shipments and served a year-long suspension, a punishment reserved for a repeat offender. MLB effectively used his 2009 admission to the 2003 positive "anonymous test" as strike one. I don't know how, since it was an anonymous test, but they somehow got away with that. Had it not been for the HGH thing, I think A-ROD would be on his way into the HOF sometime this decade because he at least had the cojones to come clean the first time. But when you get caught cheating again, very tough to recover. Clemens is another interesting one. On the 2003 list, loosely connected to HGH shipments IIRC. But I always thought that Rocket overall had a positive media perception. Not the charisma of Big Papi but that of the honest, hard-working goody-two-shoes down-on-the-farm family man. Would've expected Rocket to get more of a break.
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MLB 2021
Jun 16, 2021 20:16:20 GMT -5
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 16, 2021 20:16:20 GMT -5
Manny had a Roid Rage incident where he assaulted the Red Sox traveling secretary which further sealed his fate ... not that it bothered Dodgers fans when he arrived there in a pennant race and was hotter than a pistol at the plate.
Jim Rice had to wait twenty years after retirement to get voted in to the Hall, which many attribute to his frequently surly disposition with the media when he was a player. Ironically he has been in the media as an analyst at NESN for decades in his post playing days.
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Post by bfoley82 on Jun 16, 2021 21:06:03 GMT -5
Manny had a Roid Rage incident where he assaulted the Red Sox traveling secretary which further sealed his fate ... not that it bothered Dodgers fans when he arrived there in a pennant race and was hotter than a pistol at the plate. Jim Rice had to wait twenty years after retirement to get voted in to the Hall, which many attribute to his frequently surly disposition with the media when he was a player. Ironically he has been in the media as an analyst at NESN for decades in his post playing days. Well, Ortiz barged into a Francona press conference over a hit/error decision the night before
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MLB 2021
Jun 16, 2021 21:27:07 GMT -5
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 16, 2021 21:27:07 GMT -5
Manny had a Roid Rage incident where he assaulted the Red Sox traveling secretary which further sealed his fate ... not that it bothered Dodgers fans when he arrived there in a pennant race and was hotter than a pistol at the plate. Jim Rice had to wait twenty years after retirement to get voted in to the Hall, which many attribute to his frequently surly disposition with the media when he was a player. Ironically he has been in the media as an analyst at NESN for decades in his post playing days. Well, Ortiz barged into a Francona press conference over a hit/error decision the night before Remember that. Very petty of David.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jun 16, 2021 21:45:34 GMT -5
Sammy Sosa is a great ambassador of the game. AROD is a great ambassador of the game. Lots of people think AROD is fake with the media, but young players love him and would go to his infield camps (Manny Machado, also widely disliked, wore #13 in AROD's honor). Neither will likely ever get a job on the bench, with a team, or the league. Neither will likely ever get into the hall of fame.
I am not convinced the steroid boys will never go to Cooperstown. Time will soften opinions. Old time sports writers who are upset their heroes records were broken will retire off the voting rolls. In my opinion the precedent was set with the enshrinement of Gaylord Perry. That being said, Sosa and AROD are in slightly different positions. Sosa was in that group that never "officially" tested positive and was never suspended for illegal substances. AROD was suspended. That might play a factor in the voters' minds One would think you'd be right about a newer generation of voters softening up on steroids. However, 30+ years of change in the voter rolls hasn't benefited Pete Rose. And haven't a lot of the steroid guys fallen off the ballot at this point? Meaning they'd need a ton of write ins. Sosa screwed the pooch with his embarrassing performance at the Congressional hearings. Having his name on the "rumored but probably real" 2003 list doesn't help. I think AROD would've ultimately won over the voters by taking the high road in 2009 as far as his admission of use. But, he got caught cheating again, so that's a wrap IMO. And I've always been a huge fan of his.
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MLB 2021
Jun 17, 2021 1:40:29 GMT -5
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Post by bfoley82 on Jun 17, 2021 1:40:29 GMT -5
I am not convinced the steroid boys will never go to Cooperstown. Time will soften opinions. Old time sports writers who are upset their heroes records were broken will retire off the voting rolls. In my opinion the precedent was set with the enshrinement of Gaylord Perry. That being said, Sosa and AROD are in slightly different positions. Sosa was in that group that never "officially" tested positive and was never suspended for illegal substances. AROD was suspended. That might play a factor in the voters' minds One would think you'd be right about a newer generation of voters softening up on steroids. However, 30+ years of change in the voter rolls hasn't benefited Pete Rose. And haven't a lot of the steroid guys fallen off the ballot at this point? Meaning they'd need a ton of write ins. Sosa screwed the pooch with his embarrassing performance at the Congressional hearings. Having his name on the "rumored but probably real" 2003 list doesn't help. I think AROD would've ultimately won over the voters by taking the high road in 2009 as far as his admission of use. But, he got caught cheating again, so that's a wrap IMO. And I've always been a huge fan of his. I think ARod has a bad rap for no reason whatsoever. The guy played basically everyday of his career and was one of the best players in the league throughout. Did he win enough? Well, he can only do so much in that sport on his own.
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Post by Tom on Jun 17, 2021 7:38:45 GMT -5
I am not convinced the steroid boys will never go to Cooperstown. Time will soften opinions. Old time sports writers who are upset their heroes records were broken will retire off the voting rolls. In my opinion the precedent was set with the enshrinement of Gaylord Perry. That being said, Sosa and AROD are in slightly different positions. Sosa was in that group that never "officially" tested positive and was never suspended for illegal substances. AROD was suspended. That might play a factor in the voters' minds One would think you'd be right about a newer generation of voters softening up on steroids. However, 30+ years of change in the voter rolls hasn't benefited Pete Rose. And haven't a lot of the steroid guys fallen off the ballot at this point? Meaning they'd need a ton of write ins. Totally different scenario. In the eyes of baseball, steroid use is a serious violation that can get you a one year suspension for your second offense. Gambling on baseball is a more serious violation where the first offense is a life time ban including Cooperstown. There are lots of people who think Rose should be in (I am not one of them). Reasonable to assume that a similar percentage of the writers would vote for Rose if they had the option
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Post by alum on Jul 14, 2021 11:28:59 GMT -5
It is Opening Day and there will be (some) fans in the seats. I'm sorry to say that I think that this is going to be a Yankees year. Right city, wrong team. LGM As we start the second half tomorrow, it looks like hchoops was right. The Mets lead their division while the Yankees are mired in 5th. Sox are on top.
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Post by timholycross on Jul 14, 2021 11:45:22 GMT -5
God, those unis were hideous last night.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jul 14, 2021 12:37:54 GMT -5
Right city, wrong team. LGM As we start the second half tomorrow, it looks like hchoops was right. The Mets lead their division while the Yankees are mired in 5th. Sox are on top. *4th place. They'd have to be about 18 places worth to be tied with the embarrassingly-lowly Orioles.
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Post by alum on Jul 14, 2021 12:46:27 GMT -5
As we start the second half tomorrow, it looks like hchoops was right. The Mets lead their division while the Yankees are mired in 5th. Sox are on top. *4th place. They'd have to be about 18 places worth to be tied with the embarrassingly-lowly Orioles. Apparently I am still under the impression that it is 1975 and there are two divisions of 6 teams.
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Post by Tom on Jul 14, 2021 15:06:32 GMT -5
In case anyone forgot the All Star game is a meaningless made for TV exhibition, there was a rule change for last night.
Ohtani started the game on the mound and was replaced after one inning by Lance Lynn of the White Sox. Somehow he managed to come back into the game and bat as a DH in the 3rd inning. Ohtani is a phenom and everybody wanted to see him, so they made some special rule that the DH and the pitcher are two separate positions and effectively Ohtani was two separate people
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Post by sader1970 on Jul 14, 2021 15:11:24 GMT -5
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Post by hchoops on Jul 14, 2021 15:34:48 GMT -5
He is both of those
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