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Post by longsuffering on May 23, 2021 8:43:22 GMT -5
I imagine the percentage of people who had access to a flu vaccine and decided to get it went up, even if the number of people who had access might have declined. My reasoning for the former is people were initially frightened about the severity of a combined flu/Covid outbreak. For the latter because more people switched to Zoom for medical appointments and mail order for Pharmacy purchases.
But the main driver of reduced flu cases would be masks and social distancing.
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Post by timholycross on May 23, 2021 10:18:58 GMT -5
I got to work remotely a lot starting 15 years ago; retiring 4 years ago.
In that time, there were clearly a lot less cold/flu "events" and I did get the flu shot to boot. No question not being in the office 5 days a week (2 or 3 days; and when the winter weather was a factor, not even considering going there) It also afforded me the ability to spare others from my affliction which I think is the worst part of the standard workplace, i.e., you're not sick enough to reasonably call in sick but you are spreading germs all over the place.
Clearly being retired kept me healthy, only remember one cold in the last 4 years, no flu.
Certainly having the option to mask up in the future might be taken advantage of. On the other hand, the masks seemed to do more for others than for one's self; so i think I'd be more inclined to do all the other little things that have gotten popular; little or no handshaking, decent distance between one's self and others, frequent hand washing and being careful in a lot of situations not to touch one's face.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 24, 2021 8:04:28 GMT -5
Percent of population vaccinated / by age cohort, at least one dose, as of May 22 States arrayed from bottom to top 12-17 years old / 18-64 years old / 65+ years old
MS 4 / 35 /74 AL 5 / 36 / 76 LA 6 / 37 / 76 WY 9 / 38 / 75 WV 16 / 39 / 73 SC 10 / 41 / 82 TN 9 / 41 / 76 ID <1 / 41 / 76 AR 10 / 41 / 75 GA 10 / 43 /79 ++++ MD 28 / 64 / 88 NM 24 / 64 / 89 RI 30 / 64 / 93 ME 30 // 66 / 93 NJ 24 / 67 / 89 CT 33 / 68 / 93 NH 19 / 71 / >99 MA 36 / 72 / 94 VT 35 / 74 / >99 HI 37 / 76 / 97
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Post by mm67 on May 24, 2021 9:30:57 GMT -5
My impression is that various leaders were concerned that the origin of the virus was being used politically to whip up anti Chinese hatred in this country. Fact is, anti Asian violence in this country greatly increased after certain folks knowingly used the term "China Virus" as an epithet for "various purposes." Some continue to use this term in an inflammatory way. Secondly, I did hear some (Dr. Fauci, inc.) state that at that time there was No Evidence available linking the origin of the virus directly to the Lab which was true. At no time was the lab definitively dismissed as others on the China virus bandwagon erroneously claimed. It is one thing to say the lab was definitively not the source and quite another to say that at that time there was no evidence. And the evidence available at the time indicated that the virus "Most Likely" evolved in nature." Fauci stated the latter. Jesuitical hairsplitting? In fact the lab was never entirely was dismissed. Last Year, during the "China Virus" brouhaha, I heard and saw Dr. Fauci and others state that there needed to be further investigation including of the Lab. Some knew & understood the distinction Dr. Fauci was making but mischaracterized his views for their own purposes. Dr. Fauci & others added that at that time the priority was on stopping the spread of the virus with intelligent science based public health practices and the development of vaccines and treatments. In the end science prevailed.
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Post by hcpride on May 24, 2021 10:54:18 GMT -5
I think there were some individuals who were largely if not unceremoniously dismissed when they raised the prospect that this virus may have emanated from a lab in Wuhan. Certainly a healthy suspicion of the ‘experts’ (including all things Covid) is part of a rational existence. When one considers 50 folks died in the terrible Chernobyl explosion and it gave a horrified world fits, one can imagine that killing 3.5 Million via an escaped virus is something China would desperately want to conceal. When Senator Paul quizzed Dr. Fauci last week regarding any US-funded research at the Wuhan Institute I couldn’t help noticing a rather full voiced and rather angry denial (even worse that a couple of weeks ago when he reacted to Senator Paul’s suggestion that double masking when fully vaccinated is theatre rather than science). I remember thinking, why the emotion or anger, just say yes or no and leave it at that? Who cares one way or another? Any chance Tony is starting to think something horrible (if you consider 3.5 million deaths, a hundred million victims, and 29 trillion in costs horrible) is connected to the Wuhan Lab? (Various sources on the internet are busy recording those scientists and journos who mocked and sneered the at the Lab Leak Story as a conspiracy theory and those very very few who early on found it, at least, quite plausible.)
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 24, 2021 11:06:53 GMT -5
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Post by alum on May 24, 2021 13:43:04 GMT -5
I think there were some individuals who were largely if not unceremoniously dismissed when they raised the prospect that this virus may have emanated from a lab in Wuhan. Glad to see that others including our fellow alumnus are now open to pursuing the truth behind what really happened. I have little trust in those on both sides of the aisle and share this commentary not to play politics as I greatly appreciate the fact that Dean Wormer keeps the politics out of the discourse here. The topic here regarding the origination of this virus strikes me as one of meaningful interest.
ICYMI: Fauci Not Convinced Covid Developed Naturally, Backs Investigation nypost.com/2021/05/23/fauci-not-convinced-covid-19-developed-naturally/
Dr. Anthony Fauci, a top adviser to President Biden on the coronavirus pandemic, said he’s “not convinced” the deadly virus developed naturally and has called for further investigations into where it emerged.
Fauci was asked during a Poynter event, “United Facts of America: A Festival of Fact-Checking,” earlier this month about whether he was confident that COVID-19 developed naturally.
“No actually. I am not convinced about that. I think we should continue to investigate what went on in China until we continue to find out to the best of our ability what happened,” Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergies and Infectious Diseases, said, according to Fox News.
“Certainly, the people who investigated it say it likely was the emergence from an animal reservoir that then infected individuals, but it could have been something else, and we need to find that out. So, you know, that’s the reason why I said I’m perfectly in favor of any investigation that looks into the origin of the virus,” he added.
The coronavirus was first reported in the Chinese city of Wuhan in December 2019, and many believe it could have begun in a lab there and escaped.
Fauci was pressed on that theory during a Senate hearing on May 11 and said he would support a further investigation during an exchange with Sen. Roger Marshall (R-Kansas).
“Do you think it’s possible that COVID-19 arose from a lab accident … in Wuhan, and should it be fully investigated?” Marshall, a doctor, asked Fauci.
“That possibility certainly exists, and I am totally in favor of a full investigation of whether that could have happened,” he replied.
A few months after the start of the pandemic last year, Fauci said the virus most likely “evolved in nature and then jumped species,’’ as opposed to being “artificially or deliberately manipulated.”
Fauci and Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) clashed during the hearing over whether the US government funded “gain of function” research at the Wuhan lab – a process of making a virus more potent in a controlled lab setting as a way to generate better vaccines to defeat it.
“Sen. Paul, with all due respect, you are entirely, entirely and completely incorrect … the NIH has not ever and does not now fund gain of function research in the Wuhan Institute,” Fauci said.
When Paul pushed Fauci: “Government scientists like yourself who favor gain function,’’ Fauci interjected, “I don’t favor gain-of-function research in China.
Last Thursday, Republicans on the House Intelligence Committee released a report claiming there is “significant circumstantial evidence” that the coronavirus originated from a leak at China’s Wuhan Institute of Virology, and that the US government “may have funded or collaborated” in the research that led to it.
“International efforts to discover the true source of the virus, however, have been stymied by a lack of cooperation from the People’s Republic of China,” the Republicans wrote in the report.
Hmmm . . . Fair question to ask whether there are those in the know who are sharing truths behind the scenes as to what really happened. Interesting. Very interesting. Interesting stuff. If it is true, I guess that means this could happen again with a similar coronavirus. If that is true, it seems to me that we ought to be getting every last person in the world vaccinated. Are you ready to get the jab?
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Post by hcpride on May 24, 2021 13:53:41 GMT -5
Well, if China confesses and pays restitution to the survivors and families of the dead, I’m sure there will be better safeguards in place going forward. Less lab leaks not more. And quite a few apologies from the journos (they literally wore themselves out labeling the lab notion as a 'debunked conspiracy theory') and ‘experts’. Hard to believe this interview with Senator Cotton [not a scientific expert] was 15 (!) months ago. www.foxnews.com/media/sen-tom-cotton-coronavirus-origins. Now, 15 months later it appears Dr Fauci is starting to agree with him. Apparently, to the nonexpert, it was awfully odd that a deadly coronavirus materialized right next store to a lab that studies deadly coronaviruses. Assuming, for a moment, one of China’s labs was responsible.
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Post by Crucis#1 on May 24, 2021 14:50:01 GMT -5
This morning, I witnessed first hand, why the pandemic will be with us for a while, despite the picture some have been portraying recently of returning to normal.
My wife and I were at a very large university hospital campus, not located in a city, that encompasses multiple distinct buildings, including science labs and forensic medicine.
She had an appointment in a building dedicated to day surgery for skeletal issues. The office is located on a second level directly accessible from the garage. As we were in discussion with a medical assistant during intake, a late middle age woman rudely interrupted the medical assistant talking to us and asked if this is where Covid Testing was taking place. The medical assistant looked at her and immediately stated.......I am talking to a patient and please.......Pull up your mask. We were inside a medical suite, and this person had to be instructed to pull up her mask. Less than 30 seconds later, the woman interrupted again asking it this the place was where Covid Testing is taking place. The medical assistant once again and for the second time told the woman to pull up her mask and she would answer her question as soon as she was finished with our intake discussion. The medical assistant then told her, that testing is occurring outside of the building in another area of the campus, and that she should leave immediately get in her car and follow the directions regarding the location.
Fortunately, both my wife and I are fully vaccinated and double mask with an N95 base level for a close seal when in a building. I am really annoyed with this encounter for several reasons. 1) The person was not even close to following directions when she drove onto the campus regarding testing location. 2) The person due to her thoughtlessness, may have exposed people in the room to the virus, if she is indeed positive. There is no way of knowing if the others awaiting a procedure have been fully vaccinated and fully protected. 3) The person did not follow instructions the first time, when instructed to pull up her mask. 4) The person was clearly of age, that she should have been able to have completed either Pfizer or Moderna vaccinations, and her lack of doing so has now place her in a situation where she is displaying anxiety regarding the need for immediate testing. 5) The person was rude and acting entitled when she approached the medical assistant.
You never know, when even in an environment clearly marked with expectations of protocols to be followed, you may encounter a person, whose interest pushes the bounds of incredibility. I am still seething from this person’s rudeness and stupidity.
In in spite of all the publicity, people are still not of clear mind regarding what is acceptable for their own and others public health safety.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on May 24, 2021 15:54:03 GMT -5
Crucis, moving forward, what is the plan for being in areas where there are many people who are not donning masks? Is the thought to avoid these places altogether?
If you are vaccinated, then should you not feel safe anywhere?
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Post by mm67 on May 24, 2021 16:05:40 GMT -5
It seems to me there are primarily two camps interested in ascertaining the source of the Covid 19 coronavirus. One one is the community of scientists such as Dr. Fauci, other epidemiologists, virologists researchers and a variety of others with expertise in this field (certainly not community based ophthalmologists.) They want to find the source to learn more about the virus, its mechanisms and spread so as to develop preventative measures, vaccines treatments and avoid any future mistakes that may have resulted in the transmission of this deadly virus. This info would be extremely important for future research and to guide governments, physicians, pharmaceutical companies & other institutions such as WHO, CDC, etc. In effect to advise and protect the general population from future deadly pandemics. On the other hand there are those in the other camp who in attemting to delineate the source are attempting t to cast blame for the virus & its spread on those the Wuhan Lab, the Chinese government, the CDC, Dr. Fauci and a host of mainstream scientists. Certainly there may be blame to go around from the governing leadership to scientists. No doubt there is some value in understanding the role mistakes may have played in causing the pandemic. It seems that Chinese opaqueness, their lack of transparency has created a roadblock for researchers. Let's face it, there is a lot to find fault with in regard to the Chinese government in a lot of areas. We can all learn from any mistakes or malfeasance among their scientists and political leadership. However, there is little of any value seved if the primary basis of any inquiry is merely to blame and not to learn. The two camps seem to be competing for the support of both sides of a partisan divide whereas ultimately the issue as to the source is of interest mainly to the scientists. Ironically, we may never learn the source of the virus not due to the nefarious actions or mistakes of some but to our limited knowledge and understanding of the wonderful mysteries nature.
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Post by Chu Chu on May 24, 2021 16:35:07 GMT -5
I have enjoyed reading the discussion, and I would like to share my thoughts about about two points:
1.) The discussion over the last several months about how the virus evolved has been tainted severely by bad faith, twisted and manipulative comments emanating all the way from the top of our government, trying to score political points by demonizing China. Recent examples included above by Tucker Carlson and Rand Paul are illustrative of this.
The fact is that we still do not have a good idea, proven by research, of how the virus presented. Whether or not China tried to hide an accident is not known, but it is certainly plausible. After all, our own chief executive lied repeatedly to try and make things look better. That is not political, just a fact. I think that Dr Fauci has just the right attitude about this. International cooperation with China and others, regarding global medical issues, is an import, necessary and ethical undertaking, that helps our country and the world advance our understanding of many challenges. To try and demonize this after the fact is reactionary and very short sided.
2.) With regard masks, Dr. Fauci and others have made it clear that if you are of normal health and fully immunized, you are well protected and should feel safe without wearing a mask. Although that good news is true, as far as it goes, there are other considerations that complicate things. For example; in my community, the most aggressive non-mask wearers are the COVID deniers who have taken the recent announcement as a carte blanche for their irresponsible behavior because "no one can tell if I am immunized or not". There is a large group of people who, although immunized, have not formed protective antibodes (transplant recipients, people on immune suppressing drugs for Crohns Disease, arthritis, Lupus, etc, etc, etc.) Millions of children are not immunized. It makes a lot of sense to me that until the vast majority are immunized, we should continue to use masks in many venues where close contact occurs. I hope that many businesses will contuse their mask policies, or, ask for evidence of immunization, instead.
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Post by purplehaze on May 24, 2021 17:14:08 GMT -5
I was always surprised that when Fauci was interviewed about a year ago about investigating the origins of the virus, he stated (paraphrase) 'I trust my colleagues in China with whom I have worked with for many years'. I think he might have been guilty of a certain degree of naivete then - as more evidence emerges I think he might rethink such trust
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Post by Crucis#1 on May 24, 2021 18:01:02 GMT -5
Crucis, moving forward, what is the plan for being in areas where there are many people who are not donning masks? Is the thought to avoid these places altogether? If you are vaccinated, then should you not feel safe anywhere? Outside, with proper,distancing, not an immediate problem. Went to a popular snack bar by the water yesterday and had dinner while looking at boats. I still plan to keep my distance from kids that are obviously not vaccinated. I will feel comfortable outside and inside, unfettered, once the T-Cell vaccines and therapies are available, proven and my family has them available. My family has health issues with their immune system, so I need to continue to be vigilant. Personally I can be patient and not being in crowded venues until next year. All a matter of risks vs rewards and a possible zero sum game. Having spent my career in risk management, and data analysis, I will continue to follow my intuition based on logical information regarding population densities and proximities. In terms of current risks, I rather be hiking near an active volcano, in Iceland, as was shown on 60 minutes last night, than be in a crowded Sports venue this year. There are protocols and risks that I understand. Technology allows me to see anyone and watch just about any event I want on demand.
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Post by hcpride on May 24, 2021 18:53:36 GMT -5
I have enjoyed reading the discussion, and I would like to share my thoughts about about two points: 1.) The discussion over the last several months about how the virus evolved has been tainted severely by bad faith, twisted and manipulative comments emanating all the way from the top of our government, trying to score political points by demonizing China. Recent examples included above by Tucker Carlson and Rand Paul are illustrative of this. The fact is that we still do not have a good idea, proven by research, of how the virus presented. Whether or not China tried to hide an accident is not known, but it is certainly plausible. After all, our own chief executive lied repeatedly to try and make things look better. That is not political, just a fact. I think that Dr Fauci has just the right attitude about this. International cooperation with China and others, regarding global medical issues, is an import, necessary and ethical undertaking, that helps our country and the world advance our understanding of many challenges. To try and demonize this after the fact is reactionary and very short sided. The NYT and WAPO greeted Senator Cotton's February 2020 concerns regarding the Wuhan Lab and the Coronavirus by labeling it a "debunked conspiracy theory'. Given that it was neither debunked nor a conspiracy theory and those papers certainly knew that, I am sure there is a rather complicated explanation for this sort of simultaneous and jaw dropping journalistic malpractice. This is a rather important (if one considers 3.5 million deaths - possibly all preventable - to be important) detail to get right and one hopes the 'experts', the investigative journalists, and the various intelligence services have regained their footing and redoubled their efforts at this late date in an attempt to finally get it right. Attempts to prove the origin of the virus was a lab in Wuhan and subsequent attempts at restitution and reform ( if it is proven a lab leak is the source) should not be conflated with notions of demonization (although China will doubtlessly say as much). I know Senator Cotton is a Harvard guy (both undergraduate and Law School) but I would imagine even a six year old would raise his or her little eyebrows at the idea that the city in China that houses a well known lab that studies deadly coronaviruses is the very same city in China in which a deadly coronavirus starts its killing spree.
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Post by Chu Chu on May 25, 2021 0:06:11 GMT -5
The NYT and WAPO greeted Senator Cotton's February 2020 concerns regarding the Wuhan Lab and the Coronavirus by labeling it a "debunked conspiracy theory'. Given that it was neither debunked nor a conspiracy theory and those papers certainly knew that, I am sure there is a rather complicated explanation for this sort of simultaneous and jaw dropping journalistic malpractice. . . Cotton made his comments on February 2020, just as our nation needed to be laser focused on our response to the virus. Without any evidence at all, he poured gas on our relations with the Chinese over this issue, based on his bias about them, at a time when building bridges was needed. This was after they had sequenced the viral genome and shared it with the world, which enabled us and others to begin our vaccine program. This is what Sen Cotton said on Fox News, as reported by the NYT article: “We don’t have evidence that this disease originated there,” the senator said, “but because of China’s duplicity and dishonesty from the beginning, we need to at least ask the question to see what the evidence says, and China right now is not giving evidence on that question at all.”
www.nytimes.com/2020/02/17/business/media/coronavirus-tom-cotton-china.htmlYou have chosen to focus on how the NYT article reported Cotton's incendiary remarks. I believe that the proper focus should be on how irresponsible he was. It is one thing to ask or raise the question. He chose to fan the flames of a narrative arms race at the same time the incumbent president was demonizing the China virus. That resulted in a slammed door between our scientists and theirs, and exiting the World Health Organization at a time when outreach between us was needed to make common cause against the pandemic. www.atlanticcouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Weaponized-How-rumors-about-COVID-19s-origins-led-to-a-narrative-arms-race.pdf
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Post by hcpride on May 25, 2021 4:02:10 GMT -5
The NYT and WAPO greeted Senator Cotton's February 2020 concerns regarding the Wuhan Lab and the Coronavirus by labeling it a "debunked conspiracy theory'. Given that it was neither debunked nor a conspiracy theory and those papers certainly knew that, I am sure there is a rather complicated explanation for this sort of simultaneous and jaw dropping journalistic malpractice. . . Cotton made his comments on February 2020, just as our nation needed to be laser focused on our response to the virus. Without any evidence at all, he poured gas on our relations with the Chinese over this issue, based on his bias about them, at a time when building bridges was needed. This was after they had sequenced the viral genome and shared it with the world, which enabled us and others to begin our vaccine program. This is what Sen Cotton said on Fox News, as reported by the NYT article: “We don’t have evidence that this disease originated there,” the senator said, “but because of China’s duplicity and dishonesty from the beginning, we need to at least ask the question to see what the evidence says, and China right now is not giving evidence on that question at all.”
www.nytimes.com/2020/02/17/business/media/coronavirus-tom-cotton-china.htmlYou might consider today’s rather sober and lengthy analysis from the fact checker at The Washington Post: www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/05/25/timeline-how-wuhan-lab-leak-theory-suddenly-became-credible/In some sense an institutional mea culpa on the vital question of the origin of the pandemic and quite a change from 15 months ago regarding Senator Cotton (Spoiler Alert: The paper neither blames Senator Cotton for China’s dishonesty nor continues to heap ridicule on his idea - quite the contrary.) While the author briefly alludes to politics as one reason his paper whiffed (in terms of credibly considering connecting the dots between a Wuhan lab - with safety issues - studying deadly coronaviruses and a subsequent outbreak of a deadly coronavirus in Wuhan) that is not the focus.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 25, 2021 9:27:58 GMT -5
With the lab being in Wuhan it is astounding that anyone would have believed that it was not the source of the pandemic. It is sad that people ignore facts, science, and logic to fit a preconceived narrative.
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Post by hcpride on May 25, 2021 12:31:18 GMT -5
With the lab being in Wuhan it is astounding that anyone would have believed that it was not the source of the pandemic. It is sad that people ignore facts, science, and logic to fit a preconceived narrative. KY: Quite a baffling 17-month whodunnit for the scientific ‘experts’, the scholars on the World Health Organization staff, and all our crackerjack investigative journos. Me, I just googled ‘Wuhan lab’ and a ‘Science’ journal article from four years ago popped up first - lauding the opening (in a city named Wuhan) of China’s only level 4 lab. And it’s gonna (according to the article) handle the “worlds most dangerous” viruses while taking the best precautions. Wuhan? Wuhan? Hmmmm, now where have I heard that word before? Hmmmm... It is worth looking at the article if only for the hysterical update they posted in January of 2020. Something tells me that will be re-updated: www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 25, 2021 13:30:13 GMT -5
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 25, 2021 13:32:34 GMT -5
Maybe not
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Post by Chu Chu on May 25, 2021 13:53:45 GMT -5
Phreek's message nails the central point I was trying to make, which is when we use pejorative epithets, it can result in tunnel vision that obscures what might really be going on. We should simply talk about COVID-19. Named according to agreed upon international nomenclature. COrona VIrus Infectious Disease identified in 2019.
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Post by hcpride on May 25, 2021 13:58:50 GMT -5
I’m actually a bit more concerned that the BSL-4 lab in Wuhan (if I can use that word) is apparently still open and operating. Ebola may be in its inventory.
Why not close them down while we sort this out? Where are all the err-on-the-safe-siders now?
(At the same time there are some rather complicated explanations for what went on amongst the scientific experts and journos regarding the origin of the pandemic.)
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Post by alum on May 25, 2021 14:58:41 GMT -5
With the lab being in Wuhan it is astounding that anyone would have believed that it was not the source of the pandemic. It is sad that people ignore facts, science, and logic to fit a preconceived narrative. So, the argument is that they did research in a lab in Wuhan and the virus was discovered in Wuhan, therefore the virus must have been developed in the lab. My Jesuit education included Introduction to Logic where I learned fallacies. One common one is "cum hoc ergo propter hoc" or correlation does not prove causation. It may well have started there but the causation leap you are making is unfounded (at least up to now.)
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Post by bfoley82 on May 25, 2021 15:12:21 GMT -5
With the lab being in Wuhan it is astounding that anyone would have believed that it was not the source of the pandemic. It is sad that people ignore facts, science, and logic to fit a preconceived narrative. So, the argument is that they did research in a lab in Wuhan and the virus was discovered in Wuhan, therefore the virus must have been developed in the lab. My Jesuit education included Introduction to Logic where I learned fallacies. One common one is "cum hoc ergo propter hoc" or correlation does not prove causation. It may well have started there but the causation leap you are making is unfounded (at least up to now.) Well the Spanish Flu has that name so we should blame Spain right? Even though it started in Kansas???
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