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Post by hchoops on Apr 23, 2021 7:36:42 GMT -5
The hockey program is going to get worse before it gets better. As HC continues a search for a new coach, most of the other schools in the AHA are bringing in both good recruits and getting players from the transfer portal. SHU has 5 players coming in via transfer and Bentley has four, for example. ADMB has a monumental task getting us to a place where we are competitive in the AHA. I think that should be the focus for the 5yr plan. HE should be a consideration in the future as we helped them by adding and funding a women’s team when the UMass schools don’t offer women’s hockey but we need to stabilize our men’s program first. We give 18 scholarships and need a new coach that can sell HC and the benefits of being an HC grad long after leaving the Hill. Then you aren't going to be good in hockey ever....Hockey student athletes are mostly 20 year old freshmen and have dreams of still playing in the NHL or in the minors. When you compare it to baseball or football, those kids are highly unlikely to ever lace them up again when compare to hockey and so many leagues around the world. There you go again...
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Post by HC92 on Apr 23, 2021 8:12:50 GMT -5
The hockey program is going to get worse before it gets better. As HC continues a search for a new coach, most of the other schools in the AHA are bringing in both good recruits and getting players from the transfer portal. SHU has 5 players coming in via transfer and Bentley has four, for example. ADMB has a monumental task getting us to a place where we are competitive in the AHA. I think that should be the focus for the 5yr plan. HE should be a consideration in the future as we helped them by adding and funding a women’s team when the UMass schools don’t offer women’s hockey but we need to stabilize our men’s program first. We give 18 scholarships and need a new coach that can sell HC and the benefits of being an HC grad long after leaving the Hill. Then you aren't going to be good in hockey ever....Hockey student athletes are mostly 20 year old freshmen and have dreams of still playing in the NHL or in the minors. When you compare it to baseball or football, those kids are highly unlikely to ever lace them up again when compare to hockey and so many leagues around the world. I think we’re probably hoping we can find the good hockey players who can do some basic math and figure out that any life plan that involves making a living playing professional hockey probably isn’t a great or particularly realistic one. Per College Hockey News, here are all the players who attended a school currently in Atlantic Hockey who have appeared in an NHL game. 3 guys in history have played more than 12 games. 4 guys have played more than 1. I recognize that some guys will play in various levels of the minor leagues but that’s not a viable career plan and I suspect that the student-athletes who can get into HC are smart enough to understand that. Dan Hinote, Army, 1999-2009, 503 games Cory Canacher, Canisius, 2012-20, 193 games Patrick Rismiller, HC 2003-2011, 192 games Jim Stewart, HC, 1979-80, 1 game Jamie Hunt, Mercyhurst, 2006-2007, 1 game Matt Ryan, Niagara, 2005-06, 12 games Sean Bentivoglio, Niagara, 2008-09, 1 game www.collegehockeynews.com/reports/team-nhl/Holy-Cross/23/20202021
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Post by beachbound on Apr 23, 2021 11:36:18 GMT -5
The hockey program is going to get worse before it gets better. As HC continues a search for a new coach, most of the other schools in the AHA are bringing in both good recruits and getting players from the transfer portal. SHU has 5 players coming in via transfer and Bentley has four, for example. ADMB has a monumental task getting us to a place where we are competitive in the AHA. I think that should be the focus for the 5yr plan. HE should be a consideration in the future as we helped them by adding and funding a women’s team when the UMass schools don’t offer women’s hockey but we need to stabilize our men’s program first. We give 18 scholarships and need a new coach that can sell HC and the benefits of being an HC grad long after leaving the Hill. Then you aren't going to be good in hockey ever....Hockey student athletes are mostly 20 year old freshmen and have dreams of still playing in the NHL or in the minors. When you compare it to baseball or football, those kids are highly unlikely to ever lace them up again when compare to hockey and so many leagues around the world. Good thing there is a professional hockey team in Worcester that was giving HC seniors tryouts pre-Covid once their college career concluded! Oh, and an alum is also the coach of the Idaho Steelheads of the ECHL. Maybe I am having crazy thoughts here, but shouldn’t a coach be able to leverage these things along with the academic and professional networking benefits that an HC degree provides to convince a hockey recruit to come here gratis or at a substantial discount?
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Post by bfoley82 on Apr 23, 2021 22:55:08 GMT -5
Then you aren't going to be good in hockey ever....Hockey student athletes are mostly 20 year old freshmen and have dreams of still playing in the NHL or in the minors. When you compare it to baseball or football, those kids are highly unlikely to ever lace them up again when compare to hockey and so many leagues around the world. Good thing there is a professional hockey team in Worcester that was giving HC seniors tryouts pre-Covid once their college career concluded! Oh, and an alum is also the coach of the Idaho Steelheads of the ECHL. Maybe I am having crazy thoughts here, but shouldn’t a coach be able to leverage these things along with the academic and professional networking benefits that an HC degree provides to convince a hockey recruit to come here gratis or at a substantial discount? Well, D-3 kids get tryouts in the ECHL so that isn't saying much. The starting goalie for the Railers in 2019-2020 played at Hamilton College.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Apr 24, 2021 9:26:44 GMT -5
Outside of the emotional entanglement of wanting to be in Hockey East.......
Has anyone on Crossports seen the numbers regarding staying in Atlantic Hockey vs Hockey East.. Deltas for travel expenditures, facility rental, facility upgrades, league withdrawal fees, league initiation fees, potential revenue vs current revenue, licensing, recruiting, scholarships, etc.
I am asking because I want to understand the overall bottom line benefits to being in Hockey East for Holy Cross.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 24, 2021 9:39:25 GMT -5
Outside of the emotional entanglement of wanting to be in Hockey East....... Has anyone on Crossports seen the numbers regarding staying in Atlantic Hockey vs Hockey East.. Deltas for travel expenditures, facility rental, facility upgrades, league withdrawal fees, league initiation fees, potential revenue vs current revenue, licensing, recruiting, scholarships, etc. I am asking because I want to understand the overall bottom line benefits to being in Hockey East for Holy Cross. PP's figures indicates HE would cost more overall but travel costs would decrease. That is one appeal of HE as HC is not too far away from the geographic center of the league. HE has to be one of the most compact and efficient travel leagues in all D-1 sports.
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aaa8316
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 142
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Post by aaa8316 on Apr 24, 2021 15:15:29 GMT -5
Hockey East appeal for Holy Cross as an institution is arguably the biggest thing, albeit still IMO many years away from reality, if ever. - There is zero institutional ROI to Holy Cross being in Atlantic Hockey. No like-institutions. - With Hockey East, that is a much easier argument to make with the likes of BC, Providence, and numerous other recognizable institutions all within a few hours drive.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Apr 24, 2021 15:42:14 GMT -5
Anyone have projected numbers. What are the financials regarding each league. Lose x $ in Atlantic...Lose y $ in Hockey East.
Is is there a significant difference in revenue and losses between the private vs public institutions in Hockey East?
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 24, 2021 15:46:32 GMT -5
If HC is a loser, one conference is. not much better than the other. Think of the "loss" HC has in fielding a team. Are. we getting a better ROI in either conference if the team has a losing record in each? Should we start lobbying for a Patriot League competition in ice hockey?
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Apr 24, 2021 18:21:05 GMT -5
HE offers the only shot HC will ever have again to play in a highest level league in any sport. If it's offered, HC is accepting. Fact, not opinion.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Apr 24, 2021 19:56:46 GMT -5
I don’t want HC to end up in a financial pickle, like Providence College for the sake of the ego. Big East and Hockey East have not helped their current balance sheet. Certainly far from a Bonanza that some envision from top to bottom. Villanova is an exception regarding Basketball for a private school. BC and BU are the exceptions for Hockey.
How many million more will it cost to belong to Hockey East vs Atlantic Hockey? Will Hockey East wave the 4,000 seat on campus rink requirement? I just don’t see an expanded Hart Rink being built within this decade, unless Daddy Warbucks decides to adopt the HC Ice Hockey program with a dedicated gift.
Too many unanswered questions at the present time to see the financial or institutional rationale. The college admissions market, particularly in the Northeast, is currently unstable to commit to an additional spend on a Hockey program, especially when schools such as Dartmouth, Brown, which have higher endowments have recently made cuts to less costly programs to run.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 24, 2021 21:25:33 GMT -5
Here's another unanswered question. The shelf life of minor league franchises in Worcester averages a few years. While the Railers have an exceptionally strong owner, the pandemic hasn't made things easier so if the Railers tenure ends in Worcester would a segment of their fans gravitate to Hockey East at the DCU? I think the Railers owner would be as likely to scoop up a financially struggling AHL team and move it to Worcester as fold the ECHL Railers but you never know.
HC's shelf life in Worcester has been a little longer at 178 years and counting.
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Post by bfoley82 on Apr 25, 2021 2:19:25 GMT -5
Here's another unanswered question. The shelf life of minor league franchises in Worcester averages a few years. While the Railers have an exceptionally strong owner, the pandemic hasn't made things easier so if the Railers tenure ends in Worcester would a segment of their fans gravitate to Hockey East at the DCU? I think the Railers owner would be as likely to scoop up a financially struggling AHL team and move it to Worcester as fold the ECHL Railers but you never know. HC's shelf life in Worcester has been a little longer at 178 years and counting. Very few people in Worcester care about Holy Cross anymore. Have you seen the crowds at Fitton, Hart Center, etc? There are very few unaffiliated people attending the games.
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Post by bigfan on Apr 25, 2021 6:36:36 GMT -5
HE would be better, attendance would increase with fans from BC,BU, Providence, Uconn, Umass,Maine, UNH etc. In basketball leave the PL and try for the A10 and you will see fan interest increase. Football will never be able to compete nationally because the PL does not get the top athletes that are needed to win games in the tournament.
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 25, 2021 6:45:15 GMT -5
I do care who HC gets in its recruits. I do not care about our opponents recruiting. I do not see the logic of saying football will not be in the running for a national title because Bucknell (or some other PL team that is not Holy Cross) does not get top football recruits. True, the PL will never be the MVC,.
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ignatius
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 122
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Post by ignatius on Apr 25, 2021 6:59:05 GMT -5
We have no chance getting into HE and I am no longer speculating on it. Look what Sacred Heart and Bentley has done with their hockey facilities while we did NOTHING!!!! Throw a coat of paint on the walls and bury the rink in the Luth and call it an improvement. HE was not impressed that I can tell you! This is a waste of time and once again we will see another New England college jump over us on their way to a real conference. Gee where have I seen that before??? HC Athletics is a joke. A lot of innuendo here. Care to elaborate?
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Post by HC92 on Apr 25, 2021 8:44:13 GMT -5
We have no chance getting into HE and I am no longer speculating on it. Look what Sacred Heart and Bentley has done with their hockey facilities while we did NOTHING!!!! Throw a coat of paint on the walls and bury the rink in the Luth and call it an improvement. HE was not impressed that I can tell you! This is a waste of time and once again we will see another New England college jump over us on their way to a real conference. Gee where have I seen that before??? HC Athletics is a joke. A lot of innuendo here. Care to elaborate? I don’t think there’s much innuendo. It’s just that HC has made a decision thus far not to make any of the investment needed to get into HE. The women are in. Many of us heard from reliable sources that the men being in was a done deal. We did nothing to make ourselves attractive to HE and now there seems to be little chance we’ll get in. If HE decides to add another team, it appears that we are now a long-shot instead of the prohibitive favorite which I think we would have been if we had some sort of plan and/or didn’t stink for the last several seasons. SHU, Bentley, Q, AIC might all be more attractive options. Q beat us out for the ECAC spot and we squandered our opportunity with the Big East many moons ago so there is precedent for the prediction that we will lose the HE spot to another New England college.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Apr 25, 2021 9:09:21 GMT -5
For reasons that are truly inexplicable without seeing individual institutions' revenue and expense reports to the NCAA, the cost of ice hockey in HE is about $2 million more than the cost of hockey at ECAC hockey schools.
Here are the total expenses for men's ice hockey in 2018-19 for Brown, Yale, Harvard, and Dartmouth. This is total expenses, but with ZERO financial aid, as the Ivies give ZERO merit aid. None of these schools rents a rink.
Brown $945K Yale $1344K Harvard $1279K Dartmouth $1250K
If one were to add 18 full scollies (the NCAA cap) @ $65K per scollie (2018-10 fiscal year) the scollie total is $1170K All four Ivy programs with 18 theoretical scollies would cost under $2.5 million.
Colgate men's ice hockey, playing in the ECAC, had a total expense of $2,255K. Holy Cross playing in the AHl had a total expense of $1,838K. (I do not know if HC had ramped up to 18 scollies in 2018-19.)
Yet, the cost of playing ice hockey in HE is substantially higher. BC's men's ice hockey expenses in 2018-19 were $4.5 million (lost $2 million on men's ice hockey, BU's $5.6M Northeastern's $3.1M Providence's $4,7M Average expenses for these four schools is about $4.5 million Notre Dame was $5.9M -------------------------------
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Post by trimster on Apr 25, 2021 9:21:31 GMT -5
HE offers the only shot HC will ever have again to play in a highest level league in any sport. If it's offered, HC is accepting. Fact, not opinion. But that would be so not Holy Cross. Don’t forget our mantra.
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Post by gks on Apr 25, 2021 9:33:35 GMT -5
HE offers the only shot HC will ever have again to play in a highest level league in any sport. If it's offered, HC is accepting. Fact, not opinion. 100% Correct. Takes two to tango and I really don't believe, at this time, HC has any interest in pursuing HE. I'm sure Nate Pine did pursue it. I could be and hope I'm wrong.
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Post by HC92 on Apr 25, 2021 10:55:54 GMT -5
For reasons that are truly inexplicable without seeing individual institutions' revenue and expense reports to the NCAA, the cost of ice hockey in HE is about $2 million more than the cost of hockey at ECAC hockey schools. Here are the total expenses for men's ice hockey in 2018-19 for Brown, Yale, Harvard, and Dartmouth. This is total expenses, but with ZERO financial aid, as the Ivies give ZERO merit aid. None of these schools rents a rink. Brown $945K Yale $1344K Harvard $1279K Dartmouth $1250K If one were to add 18 full scollies (the NCAA cap) @ $65K per scollie (2018-10 fiscal year) the scollie total is $1170K All four Ivy programs with 18 theoretical scollies would cost under $2.5 million. Colgate men's ice hockey, playing in the ECAC, had a total expense of $2,255K. Holy Cross playing in the AHl had a total expense of $1,838K. (I do not know if HC had ramped up to 18 scollies in 2018-19.) Yet, the cost of playing ice hockey in HE is substantially higher. BC's men's ice hockey expenses in 2018-19 were $4.5 million (lost $2 million on men's ice hockey, BU's $5.6M Northeastern's $3.1M Providence's $4,7M Average expenses for these four schools is about $4.5 million Notre Dame was $5.9M ------------------------------- So we could be playing in the ECAC for a couple of hundred thousand more than it costs us to play in AHA but we made almost no effort to win the bid when the spot was open? Awesome.
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aaa8316
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 142
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Post by aaa8316 on Apr 25, 2021 11:24:02 GMT -5
If HC is a loser, one conference is. not much better than the other. Think of the "loss" HC has in fielding a team. Are. we getting a better ROI in either conference if the team has a losing record in each? Should we start lobbying for a Patriot League competition in ice hockey? Hockey formally in the Patriot League...I just threw up in my mouth.
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ignatius
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 122
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Post by ignatius on Apr 25, 2021 11:26:13 GMT -5
A lot of innuendo here. Care to elaborate? I don’t think there’s much innuendo. It’s just that HC has made a decision thus far not to make any of the investment needed to get into HE. The women are in. Many of us heard from reliable sources that the men being in was a done deal. We did nothing to make ourselves attractive to HE and now there seems to be little chance we’ll get in. If HE decides to add another team, it appears that we are now a long-shot instead of the prohibitive favorite which I think we would have been if we had some sort of plan and/or didn’t stink for the last several seasons. SHU, Bentley, Q, AIC might all be more attractive options. Q beat us out for the ECAC spot and we squandered our opportunity with the Big East many moons ago so there is precedent for the prediction that we will lose the HE spot to another New England college. Actually, there is quite a bit of innuendo. OP seems to have some insight as to HE’s position on our prospective membership. I’m interested because I’m hearing that the door is still ajar, if not fully open—on both sides.
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 25, 2021 11:36:13 GMT -5
If HC is a loser, one conference is. not much better than the other. Think of the "loss" HC has in fielding a team. Are. we getting a better ROI in either conference if the team has a losing record in each? Should we start lobbying for a Patriot League competition in ice hockey? Hockey formally in the Patriot League...I just threw up in my mouth. I guess I'll put you down as answering "no"
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Post by Tom on Apr 25, 2021 11:42:57 GMT -5
Here's another unanswered question. The shelf life of minor league franchises in Worcester averages a few years. While the Railers have an exceptionally strong owner, the pandemic hasn't made things easier so if the Railers tenure ends in Worcester would a segment of their fans gravitate to Hockey East at the DCU? I think the Railers owner would be as likely to scoop up a financially struggling AHL team and move it to Worcester as fold the ECHL Railers but you never know. There was an uptick in HC hockey attendance when the IceCats were sold to a guy from the midwest who moved the team but it was short lived when the Sharks came to town. The Sharks were moved like the Manchester and Springfield franchises when the NHL parents wanted to realign the minors so their teams were closer. I'm not sure the AHL has a near term future in Worcester, even if Cliff Rucker finds one for sale
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