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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 7, 2022 9:02:48 GMT -5
National brand identity does not come from playing football in the CAA, it comes from playing an FBS school(s) and Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, Princeton in the Ivies. Arguably, if Georgetown was better in football, that would promote national brand identity. And I am told repeatedly on this board that Chesney would prefer not to play an FBS opponent.
National brand identity within the Patriot League comes from having the two academies as members. (I believe that HC is the only NCAA school that is a conference member with the USMA, USNA, and the AFA.)
I have now read through the strategic plan for the athletic department three times. There is zero indication of any interest of HC abandoning the PL. And talk about putting the cart before the horse, the constant refrain on this board is that HC currently can't compete at the top level of the PL in most PL sports.
It's possible, I suppose, that if HC were to become so dominant in the PL that the other members could 'invite' HC to join another conference.
As for the Big East, there is no way that a school with 1500 male students could ever be other than a bottom-dweller in the BE, while playing scollie football. IMO, the only school that truly 'profited' from Big East membership was BC, and maybe Villanova in hoops. But both schools transitioned over the last 50 or so years from being local, day-student type schools to residential institutions.
BC has about the same number of athletes as does Holy Cross. BC's scollie aid for its athletes amounts to $21.5 million, about double what HC spends.. At $70,000 per full scollie, BC is funding over 300 full scollies., HC about 165.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 7, 2022 9:09:52 GMT -5
The PL is holding us back, from what?
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Post by football44 on Feb 7, 2022 9:52:42 GMT -5
CAA for football, PL for the rest. Departing PL football is not an outlandish construct. The PL already has two PL members that play football elsewhere, several others who don’t play football at all, and one that plays only football. Not saying CAA wants us for football and not saying PL wants our football to leave. Just saying what I think would be the best move for us. CAA for Football, Hockey East for Mens Hockey.
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Post by dharry13 on Feb 7, 2022 10:10:59 GMT -5
With most recent signings the roster stands at 97:
QB - 5 RB - 6 Long Snapper - 1 K - 3 TE - 5 DL - 17 WR - 12 OL - 18 LB - 7 DB - 23
So they are plus 1 related to the projected 96 man roster - basing that off of 2021 roster, but there are clearly players coming off the roster for Della Jacono to indicate they aren't done yet. No clue who those players are and if they are transferring, left the team for injury, etc. I think possibly a need for another TE, LB and maybe a DB (Safety).
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 7, 2022 10:15:57 GMT -5
CAA for football, PL for the rest. Departing PL football is not an outlandish construct. The PL already has two PL members that play football elsewhere, several others who don’t play football at all, and one that plays only football. Not saying CAA wants us for football and not saying PL wants our football to leave. Just saying what I think would be the best move for us. CAA for Football, Hockey East for Mens Hockey. Those are two logical aspirations. I may be a sentimental old fool, but I have developed a certain fondness for and protectiveness of our PL compatriots, especially the core other founding "fine Institutions" Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell. HC doesn't have any real clone-like peers, which makes it special, but the five of us smaller, older and private colleges have similar interests and I would enjoy seeing the whole league climb together. Army and Navy haven't abandoned ship either and they would have the most opportunity to do so. Nobody else has made a move to throw the others under the bus and leave when they were good in a sport, like Bucknell in basketball. Probably because they couldn't duplicate the benefits of the PL as much as anything else.
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Post by midwestsader05 on Feb 7, 2022 10:32:47 GMT -5
I say we get back to talking about the current team, recent additions etc.
However, while my competitive spirt would love to see HC eventually land in the CAA for football, I as well have developed a fondness for the other 4 of the core 5 schools mentioned above. Also, there's a bit a what behavioral science/finance folks call "anchoring" going on here (short-term bias). With the exception of Bucknell, all the other programs have sustained periods of consistent success in PL football this century. At an institutional level, there is nothing that is really preventing them from doing what Chesney and Co. did at HC the past 4 years.
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Post by football44 on Feb 7, 2022 10:43:00 GMT -5
CAA for Football, Hockey East for Mens Hockey. Those are two logical aspirations. I may be a sentimental old fool, but I have developed a certain fondness for and protectiveness of our PL compatriots, especially the core other founding "fine Institutions" Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell. HC doesn't have any real clone-like peers, which makes it special, but the five of us smaller, older and private colleges have similar interests and I would enjoy seeing the whole league climb together. Army and Navy haven't abandoned ship either and they would have the most opportunity to do so. Nobody else has made a move to throw the others under the bus and leave when they were good in a sport, like Bucknell in basketball. Probably because they couldn't duplicate the benefits of the PL as much as anything else. Longsuffering I appreciate your loyalty and protectiveness of the PL. I don't share that feeling because to me a "league" is one where every team plays every other team in "ALL" sports not ones that you use for convenience. In the PL I notice that there are some teams who are considered weak in a particular sport who covet being in the PL. (ie: Georgetown Football (weak) Basketball (strong Big East), Army, Navy(football FBS schedule, All others considered PL talent, Fordham (basketball not members of the PL). In my opinion the PL is a league of convenience. What is the fascination with HC being tied to and loyal to Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell and Colgate. We should go the way of Army and Navy and play a stronger more relevant financial FCS/FBS schedule (money games) for football. We need to stop feeling like our academic reputation would be hurt. Just ask the folks at Villanova and William and Mary how their academic reputations are being viewed. With the football success that we are now witnessing the school and the administration is seeing value in winning. Stopping the mindset of an intramural athletic standing or running the program like a D3 program. My guess is that Kit Hughes will work on turning this around.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 7, 2022 10:55:33 GMT -5
Those are two logical aspirations. I may be a sentimental old fool, but I have developed a certain fondness for and protectiveness of our PL compatriots, especially the core other founding "fine Institutions" Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell. HC doesn't have any real clone-like peers, which makes it special, but the five of us smaller, older and private colleges have similar interests and I would enjoy seeing the whole league climb together. Army and Navy haven't abandoned ship either and they would have the most opportunity to do so. Nobody else has made a move to throw the others under the bus and leave when they were good in a sport, like Bucknell in basketball. Probably because they couldn't duplicate the benefits of the PL as much as anything else. Longsuffering I appreciate your loyalty and protectiveness of the PL. I don't share that feeling because to me a "league" is one where every team plays every other team in "ALL" sports not ones that you use for convenience. In the PL I notice that there are some teams who are considered weak in a particular sport who covet being in the PL. (ie: Georgetown Football (weak) Basketball (strong Big East), Army, Navy(football FBS schedule, All others considered PL talent, Fordham (basketball not members of the PL). In my opinion the PL is a league of convenience. What is the fascination with HC being tied to and loyal to Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell and Colgate. We should go the way of Army and Navy and play a stronger more relevant financial FCS/FBS schedule (money games) for football. We need to stop feeling like our academic reputation would be hurt. Just ask the folks at Villanova and William and Mary how their academic reputations are being viewed. With the football success that we are now witnessing the school and the administration is seeing value in winning. Stopping the mindset of an intramural athletic standing or running the program like a D3 program. My guess is that Kit Hughes will work on turning this around. Good points. PL football is a league of convenience for Georgetown, Fordham, Army, Navy, American, Loyola and Boston University now that you mention it. In when it's convenient, out when it's not.
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Post by hc87 on Feb 7, 2022 10:56:51 GMT -5
Beating a very dead horse, but I actually like the PL for football. It's not perfect by any stretch, the restrictions (on admissions, red-shirting, rostah size etc) are hindrances for us but Chesney&co. have seemed to find a way for us to compete at a high level within them. I could do without the Pennsy schools (too far away and really no rivialry/history with them) but a league with long-term rival Colgate and fellow Jesuit institutions GTown and Fordham is not bad. I really like the flexibility of our football schedule in the PL. Having 5 (sometimes 6) OOC games allows us to play a variety of interesting schools which makes up for Saturdays in Lewisburg, Bethleham and Easton.
The problem of course is how do we continue to play football in the PL (and mostly dominate that sport most years) and leave the PL for a higher level basketball (and some other sports) league? It would make for some very tricky league meetings in Lehigh Valley.
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Post by midwestsader05 on Feb 7, 2022 11:00:17 GMT -5
44, all valid points and my comments were specifically about the founding core 5 schools that are PL for all sports. I just see them wanting to make it work together (at least for the time being) With so much change in college football right now, I actually think the biggest risk over the next 2-4 years in PL football starts with those 2 associate members. What if G'Town decides the Pioneer league or no football program makes more sense? At that point we are one program away from irrelevance (losing the auto-bid) If say Delaware and another CAA school want to follow the JMU path to FBS, does Fordham and/or HC eye that spot? Are there any Pioneer programs that want to transition to PL official football grants that would make a natural partner (Marist?) I don't see any NEC schools that would make sense (I don't know enough about Merrimack)
Lots of "what if's" here but these are the questions that all PL stakeholders need to be asking and thinking through right now....Again, my preference would be for HC in a 13-14 team CAA for long term stability and relevance, but also trying to be realistic.
If you did have a 7 team "North" division in the CAA with HC, Fordham, Villanova, Rhody, UNH, Monmouth and Maine....this would be VERY attractive (although purely geographically speaking Albany and Stony Brook would likely be in the "North" with Nova and Monmouth in the "South". That would be 6 guaranteed conference games a year and the 5 OOC games could be some combination of 1-2 "South Division" CAA schools, 2-3 Ivies and 1 FBS. This would be the dream scenario for me but still think it's a bit far fetched...at least for now.
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Post by efg72 on Feb 7, 2022 11:09:26 GMT -5
Perhaps we should be thinking a bit differently going forward. What conference set up, likely a new conference, satisfies the needs of HC from a financial and image/reputation perspective.
I am not sure how I feel about any shift today, but started the conversation, to give us something to talk about in an otherwise cold and dark winter when it comes to mbb.
A few wins later it might not be as dark, but I still don't see sunlight.
The world is changing around us. There are some positive alternatives for HC but it might take a bit of creativity to point our athletic programs in the right direction. Convenience for some is not a solution that works well for the future of HC as an institution
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 7, 2022 11:12:53 GMT -5
I'd be very, very surprised if HC leaves the PL in any sport in the next decade
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Post by football44 on Feb 7, 2022 11:16:21 GMT -5
Beating a very dead horse, but I actually like the PL for football. It's not perfect by any stretch, the restrictions (on admissions, red-shirting, rostah size etc) are hindrances for us but Chesney&co. have seemed to find a way for us to compete at a high level within them. I could do without the Pennsy schools (too far away and really no rivialry/history with them) but a league with long-term rival Colgate and fellow Jesuit institutions GTown and Fordham is not bad. I really like the flexibility of our football schedule in the PL. Having 5 (sometimes 6) OOC games allows us to play a variety of interesting schools which makes up for Saturdays in Lewisburg, Bethleham and Easton. The problem of course is how do we continue to play football in the PL (and mostly dominate that sport most years) and leave the PL for a higher level basketball (and some other sports) league? It would make for some very tricky league meetings in Lehigh Valley. 87 the key point that you just made is doing with out the Pennsylvania schools. We have no real connection to those schools.
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Post by football44 on Feb 7, 2022 11:18:03 GMT -5
I'd be very, very surprised if HC leaves the PL in any sport in the next decade Don't put any money on it!
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Post by football44 on Feb 7, 2022 11:20:31 GMT -5
44, all valid points and my comments were specifically about the founding core 5 schools that are PL for all sports. I just see them wanting to make it work together (at least for the time being) With so much change in college football right now, I actually think the biggest risk over the next 2-4 years in PL football starts with those 2 associate members. What if G'Town decides the Pioneer league or no football program makes more sense? At that point we are one program away from irrelevance (losing the auto-bid) If say Delaware and another CAA school want to follow the JMU path to FBS, does Fordham and/or HC eye that spot? Are there any Pioneer programs that want to transition to PL official football grants that would make a natural partner (Marist?) I don't see any NEC schools that would make sense (I don't know enough about Merrimack) Lots of "what if's" here but these are the questions that all PL stakeholders need to be asking and thinking through right now....Again, my preference would be for HC in a 13-14 team CAA for long term stability and relevance, but also trying to be realistic. If you did have a 7 team "North" division in the CAA with HC, Fordham, Villanova, Rhody, UNH, Monmouth and Maine....this would be VERY attractive. That would be 6 guaranteed conference games a year and the 5 OOC games could be some combination of 1-2 "South Division" CAA schools, 2-3 Ivies and 1 FBS. This would be the dream scenario for me but still think it's a bit far fetched...at least for now. Similar to the old Yankee Conference which some of us older folks remember.
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Post by efg72 on Feb 7, 2022 11:26:34 GMT -5
National brand identity does not come from playing football in the CAA, it comes from playing an FBS school(s) and Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, Princeton in the Ivies. Arguably, if Georgetown was better in football, that would promote national brand identity. And I am told repeatedly on this board that Chesney would prefer not to play an FBS opponent. National brand identity within the Patriot League comes from having the two academies as members. (I believe that HC is the only NCAA school that is a conference member with the USMA, USNA, and the AFA.) I have now read through the strategic plan for the athletic department three times. There is zero indication of any interest of HC abandoning the PL. And talk about putting the cart before the horse, the constant refrain on this board is that HC currently can't compete at the top level of the PL in most PL sports. It's possible, I suppose, that if HC were to become so dominant in the PL that the other members could 'invite' HC to join another conference. As for the Big East, there is no way that a school with 1500 male students could ever be other than a bottom-dweller in the BE, while playing scollie football. IMO, the only school that truly 'profited' from Big East membership was BC, and maybe Villanova in hoops. But both schools transitioned over the last 50 or so years from being local, day-student type schools to residential institutions. BC has about the same number of athletes as does Holy Cross. BC's scollie aid for its athletes amounts to $21.5 million, about double what HC spends.. At $70,000 per full scollie, BC is funding over 300 full scollies., HC about 165. Thanks PP However, I wonder if Chesney would feel the same way about playing some of these FBS games if we were in a conference that allowed us to add more talent and depth on the roster and the scholarships werent limited? I defer to others here that might talk to him or the staff for a response. Clearly he wants to win, but he also seems to be a fierce competitor. If a move in a slightly different direction were possible and he was willing to listen, we paid the coaches significantly more, and the roster could be stronger, do we think his position would change on the quality of the schedule? Again a question-- not a position
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 7, 2022 11:27:25 GMT -5
FB is fascinating in a way other sports are interesting. For instance, are there folks at Boston University who look at Holy Cross and wish they had the excitement of FB like we do currently or do they feel great they have dodged the expense and Title V complications of FB and can fully fund the intercollegiate sports they do offer in a league they have a chance of winning in every sport they play?
Why did they leave the AE for the PL anyway and has it worked out for them? Yes to question #2 imo.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 7, 2022 11:29:56 GMT -5
National brand identity does not come from playing football in the CAA, it comes from playing an FBS school(s) and Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, Princeton in the Ivies. Arguably, if Georgetown was better in football, that would promote national brand identity. How? Georgetown can't play anyone. The best "step-up" scholarship opponent they could get last year was Delaware State, who is not returning the game. How's that for national identity? South of New Haven, Ivy League schools are sunken logs when it comes to national identity. They have done Georgetown no good in that regard and no one cares, no one, that Georgetown plays Columbia. Anyone big coming to the GU schedules this year, with three open dates? No one has signed a deal.
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Post by midwestsader05 on Feb 7, 2022 11:32:40 GMT -5
Great now I'm down the rabbit hole...CAA football by 2027. **Delaware to FBS
North Division: Maine, UNH, Rhody, HC, Albany, Stony Brook, Fordham
South Division: Nova, Monmouth, Towson, W&M, Richmond, Hampton, Elon
All right I'm done...Beat Merrimack 2022!
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Post by alum on Feb 7, 2022 11:36:20 GMT -5
I want HC to do well in football, but at some point we have to admit to ourselves that very few people know about or care about FCS football. It is a lot easier to raise the college's profile (if that is your goal) in men's hoops (play big OOC games, win the league, play in the Dance) than in a football tournament which nobody watches.
And that won't change if we join the CAA for football.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 7, 2022 11:37:34 GMT -5
National brand identity does not come from playing football in the CAA, it comes from playing an FBS school(s) and Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, Princeton in the Ivies. Arguably, if Georgetown was better in football, that would promote national brand identity. How? Georgetown can't play anyone. The best "step-up" scholarship opponent they could get last year was Delaware State, who is not returning the game. How's that for national identity? South of New Haven, Ivy League schools are sunken logs when it comes to national identity. They have done Georgetown no good in that regard and no one cares, no one, that Georgetown plays Columbia. Anyone big coming to the GU schedules this year, with three open dates? No one has signed a deal. GU FB is in the fascinating column. What a poor step sister to GU BB.
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Post by hc87 on Feb 7, 2022 11:45:31 GMT -5
Who knows how college football (and college athletics in toto) will play out this decade? Big changes seem to be on the horizon....will the P5 form it's own premier-level? The transfer portal is already changing the landcape to a certain extent. The NiL (name, image and likeness) world is sure to scramble things up etc etc etc
Long story short, I think HC is in the PL for football (and other athletics) for the foreseeable future....until and when outside forces alter where HC will exist in the college athletic world.
Again, while PL hoop really limits how strong a program we can have for the most part, PL football is a very good fit for a school with the size and scope of Holy Cross.
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Post by trimster on Feb 7, 2022 11:59:07 GMT -5
Beating a very dead horse, but I actually like the PL for football. It's not perfect by any stretch, the restrictions (on admissions, red-shirting, rostah size etc) are hindrances for us but Chesney&co. have seemed to find a way for us to compete at a high level within them. I could do without the Pennsy schools (too far away and really no rivialry/history with them) but a league with long-term rival Colgate and fellow Jesuit institutions GTown and Fordham is not bad. I really like the flexibility of our football schedule in the PL. Having 5 (sometimes 6) OOC games allows us to play a variety of interesting schools which makes up for Saturdays in Lewisburg, Bethleham and Easton. The problem of course is how do we continue to play football in the PL (and mostly dominate that sport most years) and leave the PL for a higher level basketball (and some other sports) league? It would make for some very tricky league meetings in Lehigh Valley. I couldn't agree more with everything you said except for not having as much affinity for PL football. I can't stand the league for hoops but as I heard George Blaney say 40+ years ago on a pregame radio interview as I was pulling into the parking lot in Storrs, "What is best for the basketball program may not have been in the best interests of Holy Cross College." I think we all know the decision he was referring to.
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Post by Ignutz on Feb 7, 2022 12:07:50 GMT -5
Great now I'm down the rabbit hole...CAA football by 2027. **Delaware to FBS North Division: Maine, UNH, Rhody, HC, Albany, Stony Brook, Fordham South Division: Nova, Monmouth, Towson, W&M, Richmond, Hampton, Elon All right I'm done...Beat Merrimack 2022! While the PL is not my dream residence for HC in any sport, I'd rather leave things as they are than be wedded to the likes of Albany, Stony Brook, Towson and Hampton.. Rhody, Maine and Monmouth don't excite me much either. At least in the PL, we're with like institutions as far as size, history and academic standing..
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Post by hc87 on Feb 7, 2022 12:19:45 GMT -5
Again, I'm not in love with PL football but to mix metaphors, "any port in the storm" applies here. The league allows us to compete at a national FCS-level...mostly, we can continue to play against Ivies which we've done so for a century+, play some CAA schools (without having to play a full CAA schedule) and play 1 or 2 FBS games some years.
It's really kind of a "sweet spot" for us in football. We can challenge ourselves outside the PL and then most years, win 1 or 2 tough PL games to get the automatic-bid.
What could become interesting, is how the PL will respond if things remain in place (mostly Chesney and the culture he has created) for the next 5-10 years and HC continues to dominate the league in football. Will the league be sanguine with HC winning the football league title 9 out of 10 years etc???
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