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Post by longsuffering on Jun 11, 2021 21:35:52 GMT -5
...and a strong opinion it is. Sadly, losing a game to a D-2 team is nothing new for HC. Even RW managed to do that as did MB (IIRC). It is not acceptable. That should be a reminder to this team that it can happen and to not take anyone for granted. However, to look ahead and predict the possibility of two losses seems a bit too pessimistic. I have no doubt that we have a more talented group with which to start the season than would have been the case without the major "turnover" of the last two years. We will be building on the two nice wins with which we ended last year (even missing one of our better players). I am looking forward to the season and anticipate that things will be looking up. What will happen if they do not is something to discuss down the road IF that happens. Both Williams and UMass Boston are D3 unfortunately. If we are playing two D2 schools I hope Assumption is one of them. Call it the Bob Fouracre Memorial. He broadcast both the Saders and the Hounds.
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 12, 2021 6:21:45 GMT -5
Oh, shoot! I didn’t realize we’re upgrading our schedule from D-3 teams to D-2. I’ve just lowered my expectations for the upcoming season.
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Post by Ignutz on Jun 12, 2021 6:45:54 GMT -5
Did anyone actually think we were going to be a winning program the last two years. It seems a little early to put Nelson on the hot seat. As someone mentioned Blaney had two bad years with better talent than Nelson inherited then Potter and Vicens showed up and all of a sudden he's a genius. Funny how that happens when you get good players. I think Nelson has upgraded the talent level significantly now it time to prove it on the floor. If there's not marked improvement in the win loss column this year then it's time to start questioning if Nelson's the right guy. Don't see why anyone would think at this point that RJ is more qualified than Nelson to be calling the shots. No one respects George Blaney more than I, and Potter and Vicens were a once-in-a-career tandem that was spectacular for four years, but don’t overlook the contribution of assistant coach Jim Dougher, who also showed up in September 1974.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Jun 12, 2021 8:25:02 GMT -5
The problem is replacing Austin’s energy and tenacity. I think Humphrey can be that player, even though he suffered, like Faw, in getting some tough touch calls from the zebras. But I do think the talent is good enough to compete and win. A crazy idea, let Nelson do his thing and for now be the public face, but have RJ make the in-game decisions. If that happens NAD’s conference win total might be low That “energy and tenacity” resulted in a career overall record of 36-76 (.321), career pL record of 21-49 (.300), and average PL finish of 8.5. I am hopeful and confident that Nelson will upgrade the wing position. Re: the crazy idea, you’re right, that is a crazy idea. Brett Nelson has played and coached at the highest level of college basketball (and was also a McDonald’s All-American in HS) - this is his program and the buck stops with him in all aspects. If he can’t handle the in-game decisions he should not be the coach at HC. Period. End. I would love for RJ to be the Head Coach at HC some day (ideally after Nelson is hired away to a job upgrade after a successful run over the next 3-4 years), but the only way we are going to be successful right now is if Nelson is able to lead all aspects of the program. Just when I was starting to align with your thinking...you make this observation about AB. If he has to own the record for the last 2 years, then so does Coach Nelson. Can't cut one slack and not the other. We were close to forfeiting games 2 years ago, but AB suited up to play the point with a broken hand.
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 12, 2021 8:49:55 GMT -5
NAD, c'mon, you know the reason the last 2 season records stunk was because of Austin and partially on Matt too. Brett couldn't be expected to win because, you know, he didn't have his own guys. Carmody recruited a bunch of stiffs that couldn't beat a decent CYO team.
But now that "Carmody's Crew" is gone, we also can't expect Nelson to win this year because they don't have experience. Everyone knows a coach needs 5 years to have a winning record despite the fact we are in the lousy Patriot League where all teams stink.
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Post by timholycross on Jun 12, 2021 10:32:25 GMT -5
The Faw of 2019-20 was nothing to write home about. Could only manage 19 or so mpg because his ass kept getting in foul trouble. And, with less depth on that team vs 2020-21, that ass was sorely needed (25 mpg in 2020-21).
Perhaps, just perhaps, the current staff had something to do w/his improvement?
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Post by timholycross on Jun 12, 2021 10:46:50 GMT -5
Did anyone actually think we were going to be a winning program the last two years. It seems a little early to put Nelson on the hot seat. As someone mentioned Blaney had two bad years with better talent than Nelson inherited then Potter and Vicens showed up and all of a sudden he's a genius. Funny how that happens when you get good players. I think Nelson has upgraded the talent level significantly now it time to prove it on the floor. If there's not marked improvement in the win loss column this year then it's time to start questioning if Nelson's the right guy. Don't see why anyone would think at this point that RJ is more qualified than Nelson to be calling the shots. No one respects George Blaney more than I, and Potter and Vicens were a once-in-a-career tandem that was spectacular for four years, but don’t overlook the contribution of assistant coach Jim Dougher, who also showed up in September 1974. I also would note that the team George inherited looked good on paper but wasn't. Very little speed and quickness, no depth (the sophomore and junior classes were well below Jack Donahue's usual standards for reasons within and beyond his control). And Gaskins? Plenty of blame to go around in that situation; the bottom line being he simply did not belong at Holy Cross. The ramifications of that miscalculation could have brought George's tenure at HC to an abrupt end before it really started.
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Post by Ignutz on Jun 12, 2021 11:14:22 GMT -5
No one respects George Blaney more than I, and Potter and Vicens were a once-in-a-career tandem that was spectacular for four years, but don’t overlook the contribution of assistant coach Jim Dougher, who also showed up in September 1974. I also would note that the team George inherited looked good on paper but wasn't. Very little speed and quickness, no depth (the sophomore and junior classes were well below Jack Donahue's usual standards for reasons within and beyond his control). And Gaskins? Plenty of blame to go around in that situation; the bottom line being he simply did not belong at Holy Cross. The ramifications of that miscalculation could have brought George's tenure at HC to an abrupt end before it really started. While the team was nothing special on paper, a special and solid chemistry developed quickly in the fall of ‘74 with the aforementioned freshman and Doran, Carballeira, McAuley and Halsey.
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 12, 2021 13:38:29 GMT -5
The Faw of 2019-20 was nothing to write home about. Could only manage 19 or so mpg because his ass kept getting in foul trouble. And, with less depth on that team vs 2020-21, that ass was sorely needed (25 mpg in 2020-21). Perhaps, just perhaps, the current staff had something to do w/his improvement? The staff's stick and the NCAA's creating a potential free year of graduate school carrot if he played well? I'm happy to give the staff the majority of the credit and happy for Matt and Austin, who needs no external motivation.
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Post by efg72 on Jun 13, 2021 8:01:55 GMT -5
Did anyone actually think we were going to be a winning program the last two years. It seems a little early to put Nelson on the hot seat. As someone mentioned Blaney had two bad years with better talent than Nelson inherited then Potter and Vicens showed up and all of a sudden he's a genius. Funny how that happens when you get good players. I think Nelson has upgraded the talent level significantly now it time to prove it on the floor. If there's not marked improvement in the win loss column this year then it's time to start questioning if Nelson's the right guy. Don't see why anyone would think at this point that RJ is more qualified than Nelson to be calling the shots. No one respects George Blaney more than I, and Potter and Vicens were a once-in-a-career tandem that was spectacular for four years, but don’t overlook the contribution of assistant coach Jim Dougher, who also showed up in September 1974. Jim was great, loved the game, and a brilliant mind. I waited to find the “Control Offense” he put in before responding-and yes I found it in the drawer of my closet. It was a time in the game when fundamentals and athleticism were equally valued, but imho that is not the case today. Unfortunately these fundamentals/skills aren't being taught by many grade school/high school coaches or on the AAU circuit. It is what it is I guess.
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Post by possum on Jun 13, 2021 12:54:44 GMT -5
I think Dougher also put in the press that was so devastating with Potter on the ball.
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Post by timholycross on Jun 13, 2021 14:45:46 GMT -5
I think Dougher also put in the press that was so devastating with Potter on the ball. And he had the personnel to run it- Vicens, Potter, Carballeira (the press didn't work as well the next year after he graduated).
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Post by bringbackcaro on Jun 13, 2021 20:45:30 GMT -5
That “energy and tenacity” resulted in a career overall record of 36-76 (.321), career pL record of 21-49 (.300), and average PL finish of 8.5. I am hopeful and confident that Nelson will upgrade the wing position. Re: the crazy idea, you’re right, that is a crazy idea. Brett Nelson has played and coached at the highest level of college basketball (and was also a McDonald’s All-American in HS) - this is his program and the buck stops with him in all aspects. If he can’t handle the in-game decisions he should not be the coach at HC. Period. End. I would love for RJ to be the Head Coach at HC some day (ideally after Nelson is hired away to a job upgrade after a successful run over the next 3-4 years), but the only way we are going to be successful right now is if Nelson is able to lead all aspects of the program. Just when I was starting to align with your thinking...you make this observation about AB. If he has to own the record for the last 2 years, then so does Coach Nelson. Can't cut one slack and not the other. We were close to forfeiting games 2 years ago, but AB suited up to play the point with a broken hand. In the last 100 years of HC basketball (as far back as Sports-Reference.com goes), there is only one 4-year player who had a worse career winning % than Butler and Faw -- James Stowers from the class of 2000. The stretch from 1996-1997 through 1999-2000 (last three of the Raynor debacle, first year of RW cleaning up the mess) was the only 4-year stretch since 1901-02 with a worse winning percentage (.294) than the stretch from 2017-18 through 2020-21 (.321). That was also the only stretch with a worse 4-year PL winning percentage (.292) than the last four years (.300).
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 13, 2021 21:22:02 GMT -5
The win/lose percentage is never on one or two players. It's on a team and the team is created (recruitment) and the practice, strategies before a game and tactics during the game are on the coaching staff. No question, the absolute worst two consecutive seasons in decades, perhaps ever, in HC history were the last two. A noticeable decline since even the woeful Carmody years (1st year tournament run excepted).
No way anyone can convince me that the decline in Crusader basketball is because of Austin or Matt..
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 13, 2021 22:59:23 GMT -5
Always loved that Casey Stengel quote. The transfer portal today does a good job keeping disillusioned players away from the undecided.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 13, 2021 23:53:32 GMT -5
Just when I was starting to align with your thinking...you make this observation about AB. If he has to own the record for the last 2 years, then so does Coach Nelson. Can't cut one slack and not the other. We were close to forfeiting games 2 years ago, but AB suited up to play the point with a broken hand. In the last 100 years of HC basketball (as far back as Sports-Reference.com goes), there is only one 4-year player who had a worse career winning % than Butler and Faw -- James Stowers from the class of 2000. The stretch from 1996-1997 through 1999-2000 (last three of the Raynor debacle, first year of RW cleaning up the mess) was the only 4-year stretch since 1901-02 with a worse winning percentage (.294) than the stretch from 2017-18 through 2020-21 (.321). That was also the only stretch with a worse 4-year PL winning percentage (.292) than the last four years (.300). You made the bet long ago and since then have not just doubled down on it, but tripled down and I think by now that you may have be up to octupling down.. You should really cut your losses--Austin Butler was a very good basketball player for Holy Cross. Now I can anticipate the response : "You said Butler was better than Cousy...."
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Jun 14, 2021 3:10:44 GMT -5
Just when I was starting to align with your thinking...you make this observation about AB. If he has to own the record for the last 2 years, then so does Coach Nelson. Can't cut one slack and not the other. We were close to forfeiting games 2 years ago, but AB suited up to play the point with a broken hand. In the last 100 years of HC basketball (as far back as Sports-Reference.com goes), there is only one 4-year player who had a worse career winning % than Butler and Faw -- James Stowers from the class of 2000. The stretch from 1996-1997 through 1999-2000 (last three of the Raynor debacle, first year of RW cleaning up the mess) was the only 4-year stretch since 1901-02 with a worse winning percentage (.294) than the stretch from 2017-18 through 2020-21 (.321). That was also the only stretch with a worse 4-year PL winning percentage (.292) than the last four years (.300). And Coach Nelson owns 2 of those years.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Jun 14, 2021 3:14:30 GMT -5
And ironically, James Stowers came out of retirement to lead the team to one of its 2 best wins of 1999-00, a victory over UAB in Indiana's tournament. At that point Willard was close to asking for Crossports volunteers to suit up.
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Post by hcpride on Jun 14, 2021 7:42:24 GMT -5
It is fair to say AB was one of the better players on a not-very-good team. Doesn't necessarily make him a good D-1 player and but also doesn't necessarily make him a bad D-1 player. One could contrast him with Peter Pujols who was also a four year player on a not-very-good team...we can say Peter was very good by PL standards and point to the accolades he piled up in the league - starting with ROY and progressing through three subsequent years of all-PL selections).
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 14, 2021 9:29:48 GMT -5
And ironically, James Stowers came out of retirement to lead the team to one of its 2 best wins of 1999-00, a victory over UAB in Indiana's tournament. At that point Willard was close to asking for Crossports volunteers to suit up. I was at that game!!! Great victory for HC indeed
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Post by bringbackcaro on Jun 14, 2021 9:30:13 GMT -5
In the last 100 years of HC basketball (as far back as Sports-Reference.com goes), there is only one 4-year player who had a worse career winning % than Butler and Faw -- James Stowers from the class of 2000. The stretch from 1996-1997 through 1999-2000 (last three of the Raynor debacle, first year of RW cleaning up the mess) was the only 4-year stretch since 1901-02 with a worse winning percentage (.294) than the stretch from 2017-18 through 2020-21 (.321). That was also the only stretch with a worse 4-year PL winning percentage (.292) than the last four years (.300). You made the bet long ago and since then have not just doubled down on it, but tripled down and I think by now that you may have be up to octupling down.. You should really cut your losses--Austin Butler was a very good basketball player for Holy Cross. Now I can anticipate the response : "You said Butler was better than Cousy...." Actually, you’re in the camp who made up their mind that Butler was a star after watching him make 3’s on his high school highlight tape, rather than actually watching him play. The fact of the matter is that if he was as good as you say he was, he would not have participated in more losses than any player in HC basketball history.
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Post by hchoops on Jun 14, 2021 9:54:20 GMT -5
Hoops is a TEAM sport Oscar Robertson played on more bad than good teams in the pros [br Pete Maravich played on weak college and pro teams ]See other team sport athletes Hall of Famer Ernie Banks
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Post by hcpride on Jun 14, 2021 10:46:19 GMT -5
You made the bet long ago and since then have not just doubled down on it, but tripled down and I think by now that you may have be up to octupling down.. You should really cut your losses--Austin Butler was a very good basketball player for Holy Cross. Now I can anticipate the response : "You said Butler was better than Cousy...." Actually, you’re in the camp who made up their mind that Butler was a star after watching him make 3’s on his high school highlight tape, rather than actually watching him play. The fact of the matter is that if he was as good as you say he was, he would not have participated in more losses than any player in HC basketball history. I don't think anybody has argued he was an above-average PL player. As I noted before, he was one of the better players on a pretty bad Holy Cross team (which could trick a few observers into thinking he was an above-average PL player). He was one of 5 guards named Second-Team All-Patriot League last year.
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Post by Tom on Jun 14, 2021 11:02:18 GMT -5
Sometimes it helps to look at the whole picture
Butler played on some horrible teams, I don't think that automatically means that he was a horrible player. I remember reading here that one of the issues with Coach Carmody was that none of his recruits ever made any of the top 3 all PL teams. Apparently there is some value associated with that. Senior year Butler made 2nd team. All of the PL brass think that Butler was one of the top 10 players in the league this past season. I would cite that as a counter argument to the premise that Butler is a horrible player. That doesn't mean I would put him in the category of a 1st team PL guy like Keith Simmons. I just think some of the assessments of are too critical
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Jun 14, 2021 11:07:56 GMT -5
This is just so silly. If Ronnie Perry Jr. had me and 11 of my clones for teammates (and 8 quit/transferred/were bounced from the squad) I'm pretty sure his teams would have been hard pressed to win a single game in 4 years. Absurd? Yes, as absurd as trying to blame 2 players for the W-L record while the coach gets off scot free.
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