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Post by Crucis#1 on Jun 23, 2021 9:18:25 GMT -5
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Post by Crucis#1 on Jun 23, 2021 9:22:46 GMT -5
There are two additional figures, other than Francis Xavier, depicted in this new installation in the Hogan Courtyard. Does anyone know who is being represented?
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 23, 2021 9:40:14 GMT -5
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Post by HC16 on Jun 23, 2021 9:44:35 GMT -5
There are two additional figures, other than Francis Xavier, depicted in this new installation in the Hogan Courtyard. Does anyone know who is being represented? I believe Peter Faber is already there with Ignatius still to come.
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 23, 2021 10:29:07 GMT -5
Good thing the statue was dedicated now while Fr. B is still around as I don't think Vince Rougeau has been qualified on the holy water dispersal procedures.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jun 23, 2021 11:46:06 GMT -5
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jun 23, 2021 12:17:55 GMT -5
Off on a tangent here, but yesterday I was reading a National Park Service commissioned history of Rock Creek (national parkland in DC) and mention was made of an early planter named Ignatius Fenwick. (This was during the early 18th Century.) I was struck by the first name and looked up Ignatius Fenwick, and quickly came across a Find a Grave site for Ignatius, and his father, also named Ignatius. www.findagrave.com/memorial/71355441/ignatius-fenwickIgnatius' father, born 1716, was married to a Taney, and I bet she was related to the family of Roger Taney. Ignatius' grandfather was also named Ignatius, born in 1673, St. Mary's MD., son of Richard Fenwick, and wife unknown. The Jesuits arrived in St. Mary's mid 1630s. www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-2000-10-05-0010050064-story.htmlThere is a close association between the historic Jesuit plantation lands and the U. S. Navy property at Patuxent NAS. End of tangent. (Other than I'll wager that the Fenwicks owned slaves.)
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Post by CHC8485 on Jun 23, 2021 14:09:23 GMT -5
Did the progeny of the Fenwick's include a Benedict Joseph some time down the line?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jun 23, 2021 17:39:27 GMT -5
Did the progeny of the Fenwick's include a Benedict Joseph some time down the line? Benedict J. Fenwick, born 3 September 1782, Leonardstown, St. Mary's County, Maryland. Father was Richard Fenwick Jr[?], (1747-1799). Mother was Dorothy Plowden. Fenwick Manor. On April 24,1651, Cuthbert Fenwick was granted absolute lordship on Fenwick Manor, sometimes called St. Cuthbert's Manor, with all the rights and privileges of holding Curt Baron and Court Leet. The manor was 2,000 acres in Resurrection Hundred, on the south bank of the Patuxent River. It was between De La Brooke Manor (on the north) and Resurrection Manor (on the south). Dorothy Plowden genealogytrails.com/mary/annearundel/colonialfamilies_Plowden.htmlThe name of her father in the quoted test appears to be an error. Her father likely is George Plowden. The Plowdens owned Resurrection Manor, twice the size of Fenwick Manor. And yes indeedee, these were plantations that used slaves for labor. I cannot find a Joseph Plowden in land records. Some of the Fenwick land is categorized as "Papist". Compared to Massachusetts records, the Maryland records for this timeframe are pee-poor.
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Post by hcpride on Jun 23, 2021 18:06:12 GMT -5
Is St. Francis Xavier in any danger of being cancelled/statue toppled? I only ask because things have gotten really wacky and he was a 16th Century European missionary serving in and around the overseas Portuguese Empire while converting native peoples. Slavery often went hand-in-hand with the Portuguese Empire.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 23, 2021 20:27:37 GMT -5
Everyone is in danger of being cancelled. It is simply a matter of the competition among the woke to discover what each person's transgression is. No one is safe
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Post by alum on Jun 24, 2021 7:39:41 GMT -5
Is St. Francis Xavier in any danger of being cancelled/statue toppled? I only ask because things have gotten really wacky and he was a 16th Century European missionary serving in and around the overseas Portuguese Empire while converting native peoples. Slavery often went hand-in-hand with the Portuguese Empire. I don't know enough about St. Francis Xavier to know if he was involved in the slave trade. A quick search did not generate any hits indicating such connections, but I certainly did not carry out an extensive research. If he was involved in slave trade, I would be horrified if the College honored him no matter how large the donation from this family might have been. Of course, the lack of any evidence of such a problem did not stop hcpride from claiming anticipatory victimhood on behalf of a person who has been dead for almost 550 years. Sorry, if this sounds political, but I didn't start it.
The Jesuit involvement in the slave trade here in the United States, on the other hand, has been the subject of many articles, some books and several threads here.. I read "A Question of Freedom" by William Thomas published last year by Yale Press. It is beautifully printed book with exhaustive research about freedom suits in Maryland and DC during the late 18 and 19th centuries. One of the stories which threads it way through the book is the Jesuit ownership of slave on plantations and the role of Father Mulledy in their sale. It details a very strange Jesuit named Ashton who most likely fathered children with a slave (if true, that is called rape) and then who freed some slaves after a dispute with the Jesuit order. The Jebbies fought to get them back. The book cites to Father K's book on HC in its discussion of Mulledy. The author also explains that his own ancestors were slave owners in Maryland during that time and he weaves in the story of the slave families his relatives owned. He also sought the descendants of those slave out and met with them. He donated all royalties to the NAACP Legal Defense Fund as a sort of reparations, I suspect.
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Post by Tom on Jun 24, 2021 9:04:33 GMT -5
Everyone is in danger of being cancelled. It is simply a matter of the competition among the woke to discover what each person's transgression is. No one is safe If NAD has been cancelled at Brown University, then truly no one is safe
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Post by Crucis#1 on Jun 24, 2021 10:11:57 GMT -5
According to the research that I have read, Francis Xavier spent much of his time in Goa and Japan. The notations in the Brill, provides a cause for concern. The Jesuits in Asia, were involved in the Trade of People. The following notation was found in the Article from Brill. “The Society of Jesus participated extensively in slaveholding and the slave trade globally, almost since the order’s founding, and remained involved until slavery’s abolition as it occurred in different parts of the world. Early Jesuits, including co-founders Ignatius Loyola (c.1491–1556) and Diego Laínez (1512–65), discussed the use of enslaved labor in India and Japan. Simão Rodrigues (1510–79), Francis Xavier (1506–52), Matteo Ricci (1552–1610), and many other Jesuits relied on indigenous and African enslaved people in Portugal, India, Japan, and China. Jesuits were extensively involved in the slave trade in Angola, as elsewhere, and owned 5,100 people on their estates in Mozambique. Jesuits were especially large slaveholders in the Caribbean and South America, and even when they did not directly hold people in slavery, collaborated with European governments in expanding slavery in their colonial missions. As such, all Jesuits and their institutions are inheritors of the Jesuit legacy of slaveholding. The pages that follow examine the history of the enslaved people the Jesuits exploited in the central and southern United States, to illuminate one piece of this global history of enslavement and its legacies.” brill.com/view/journals/jjs/8/1/article-p81_81.xml?language=enbrill.com/page/AboutMain/aboutThe history of Jesuits in the Maryland Province, as well as Missouri, Kentucky, Louisiana, and Kansas have a legacy that continues the need to be examined. Unfortunately, I continue to be sadden, upon learning of their actions in regard to human trafficking. Francis Xavier’s legacy in the founding of the Jesuits will not be cancelled, however, his being revered, must be closely examined. Unfortunately, he and others were the products of an extremely flawed and barbaric culture.
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Post by hcpride on Jun 24, 2021 14:49:12 GMT -5
Beyond obvious reasons having to do with the intersection of 16th Century Portuguese Colonialism, its agents, and slavery, I was thinking that European missionaries (coercive and otherwise) of that era (or at least their statues) might be targets of the woke mob.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Jun 24, 2021 14:54:30 GMT -5
When I meet up with this woke mob, whoever they are, I'm going to have a harsh word with them.
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 24, 2021 14:57:55 GMT -5
Geez, the next thing you know, they’ll be looking to do away with the Crusader.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Jun 24, 2021 15:28:02 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong with conducting a 360 degree review of history. For too long we have read a ice cream and lollipops version, that has been gaslighting what truly happened in the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th Century.
It is painful to have face that many of the so called heroes of our youth, were morally and psychologically flawed, and were not shining examples of humanity. Too often we have seen the imposition of cultural hegemony, by a group with might, to be extremely damaging and ethically wrong.
Bottom line, the BS version of history needed to be revealed, and an objective version should be documented and provided as a learning instrument.
I loved watching Davey Crocket when I was a kid, even had my Dad take time off from work, when I was 7 years old, so I could see Fess Parker portraying Davey Crocket ride down the street in a parade, even had a Davey Crocket bicycle with saddle bags. As an adult, I realize that Davey Crocket was not the hero, that was portrayed on the Wonderful World of Disney at the Alamo.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jun 24, 2021 18:37:44 GMT -5
IMO, Francis Xavier is 'safe' from the woke mob, or any other mob. He was in the East Indies, not the West Indies. Not saying there were not slaves used as labor in the Western Pacific and the East Indies, but there was not, to my knowledge, trafficking of slaves from Africa to Japan, Goa, India, China.
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 24, 2021 18:55:09 GMT -5
On Sunday did the Jesuits say Mass for their slaves?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jun 25, 2021 7:09:46 GMT -5
On Sunday did the Jesuits say Mass for their slaves? Yes, they did. See, for example, citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.862.5209&rep=rep1&type=pdf^^^p. 8 et seq Abbe Claude Bouchard de la Poterie, the French priest who said the first Catholic mass in Boston, founded the Church of the Holy Cross in Boston (which became the namesake of said college in Worcester) arrived in Boston from the French West Indies The abbe was well familiar with the former Jesuit plantations in the West Indies, though the order had been long suppressed by the time that he arrived in the Caribbean. de la Poterie certainly had no love for the Jesuits.
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Post by hcpride on Jun 25, 2021 8:08:02 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong with conducting a 360 degree review of history. For too long we have read a ice cream and lollipops version, that has been gaslighting what truly happened in the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th Century. It is painful to have face that many of the so called heroes of our youth, were morally and psychologically flawed, and were not shining examples of humanity. Too often we have seen the imposition of cultural hegemony, by a group with might, to be extremely damaging and ethically wrong. I was thinking beyond slavery (itself always an issue when regarding Portuguese colonialism) when I posed my question regarding Saint Francis Xavier and possible cancelling/statue toppling. Actually, very much aligned with your idea here. We were once taught European missionaries who enthusiastically converted natives (and, of course destroyed important aspects of their culture via Westernization and, of course, frequently aided and abetted the colonial aspirations and cruelties of the mother country) were heroes. One could easily anticipate a reckoning in the opposite direction for a prolific 16th Century missionary who operated hand-in-hand with the Portuguese colonial powers in Asia.
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Post by rgs318 on Jun 25, 2021 8:40:32 GMT -5
I am also anticipating a demand for reparations from the descendants of African tribes who captured other Africans, enslaved them and sold them to Europeans. We can start with the Hausa and Fulani. The Ibo should be given reparations by Nigeria for their attempted genicide. To protest thus treatment, perhaps some African flags should be banned from being flown in this country.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jun 25, 2021 10:31:43 GMT -5
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jun 25, 2021 12:27:58 GMT -5
On a more sober note, www.nytimes.com/2021/06/07/world/canada/mass-graves-residential-schools.html?action=click&campaign_id=51&emc=edit_mbe_20210625&instance_id=33840&module=Top+Stories&nl=morning-briefing%3A-europe-edition&pgtype=Homepage®i_id=10059472&segment_id=61697&te=1&user_id=da580a4cd1e82ea0128214184976a2acFor decades, the Catholic church in Canada operated, for the Canadian government, residential schools for indigenous youth The goal of such schools seems to have been to Westernize and Catholicize these heathen youth. This is not 16th Century, 17th Century, 18th Century behavior, --centuries when norms were fewer and there was far less enlightenment than now And the revelations this month of the unearthing of hundreds, if not thousands, of unmarked and undocumented graves of youth who were attending these schools does not help the Catholic church's attempt to save itself from free-fall in Canada, particularly Quebec. See: www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2021/02/25/catholic-church-quebec-reinventing-parish-life-240097Now, there are no longer enough Jesuits around to send as missionaries to Canada to help re-build the R.C. church.
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