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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 24, 2016 13:00:35 GMT -5
JYGNYR, I fear simply winning, even dominating, is not going to bring back the crowds of yesteryear.
A FBS school, which would be a draw, will not play at Fitton. UMass might, but UConn won't. (Is Rutgers, other than BC, the last school now in a Power Five conference to play at Fitton?) Perhaps, if HC were to offer a nice guarantee to the TPTB in Chestnut Hill, BC might be enticed. Fans won't come in droves to see HC roll over Towson, or Villanova.
Will lights, and a later game start help? Probably. But evening games in Worcester lose their appeal from late October on. Also, if an opponent is coming from afar, the opponent may be reluctant to spend for two nights of lodging. And a high-ranked winning team will get more television broadvasts, but at times that could diminish attendance.
Would better concessions, renovated restrooms, a video screen help? A much better game-day experience? Certainly.
(Then again, the larger the crowd, the more that parking availability becomes an issue.) ______________
I can't find NCAA attendance stats for 1987, the ultimate of the HC 'glory years' era. In my search, I did find annual attendance stats for Syracuse from like forever. Since 1999, Syracuse has averaged over 45,000 just once (2012). 45,000 plus average attendance was common between 1987 and 1999. Over the past decade Syracuse typically averages below 40,000, and several years are in the low 30s. Diminished attendance in the Northeast is not limited to FCS.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Oct 24, 2016 13:29:30 GMT -5
People of Worcester used to support Holy Cross. Now they don't. Do you blame them? They'll never come back with attitudes like yours hcgrad94. You're spot on GKS. It is disappointing that people like HC94 who are presumably bright and obviously well educated think that the haughty, elitist approach is somehow going to help muster desperately needed local support for HC's athletic teams. Like you, I have been involved in a myriad of different youth sports organizations in the area and cannot recall an instance where HC has reached out to help expand its footprint in the community. This is not the case with many of the other area colleges. Even Worcester Academy does a better job of building relationships with area youth sports organizations IMHO. The approach of HC94, coupled with an overall mediocre product over the past decade or more, is not a recipe for success.
Again my approach has nothing to do with this I am simply observing things. Haughty and elitist are silly descriptors. There's an old simmering resentment of Holy Cross among some in the Worcester community and I'm not quite sure what it is founded upon. HC quietly goes about making Worcester a better place day after day after day and yet there are some in the community that refuse to see that. Can't be fixed. Not going to get into a pissing match about What leagues Holy Cross has approached to engage over the years but from what I know there was a great deal of Outreach going on every day. You can choose to be skeptical and sit back and be part of the angry minority which is fine. Great things are going on at HC these days and if the good people of Worcester don't want to be part of it then good for them.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Oct 24, 2016 13:41:26 GMT -5
I can't find NCAA attendance stats for 1987, the ultimate of the HC 'glory years' era. In my search, I did find annual attendance stats for Syracuse from like forever. Since 1999, Syracuse has averaged over 45,000 just once (2012). 45,000 plus average attendance was common between 1987 and 1999. Over the past decade Syracuse typically averages below 40,000, and several years are in the low 30s. Diminished attendance in the Northeast is not limited to FCS. As a frame of reference, the HC v. UMass game that opened up the 1990 season in Worcester drew 16,444 fans. By comparison, HC had 12,871 at Fitton to open the 2008 season against UMass.
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Post by JRGNYR on Oct 24, 2016 14:29:43 GMT -5
JYGNYR, I fear simply winning, even dominating, is not going to bring back the crowds of yesteryear. A FBS school, which would be a draw, will not play at Fitton. UMass might, but UConn won't. (Is Rutgers, other than BC, the last school now in a Power Five conference to play at Fitton?) Perhaps, if HC were to offer a nice guarantee to the TPTB in Chestnut Hill, BC might be enticed. Fans won't come in droves to see HC roll over Towson, or Villanova. Will lights, and a later game start help? Probably. But evening games in Worcester lose their appeal from late October on. Also, if an opponent is coming from afar, the opponent may be reluctant to spend for two nights of lodging. And a high-ranked winning team will get more television broadvasts, but at times that could diminish attendance. Would better concessions, renovated restrooms, a video screen help? A much better game-day experience? Certainly. (Then again, the larger the crowd, the more that parking availability becomes an issue.) ______________ I can't find NCAA attendance stats for 1987, the ultimate of the HC 'glory years' era. In my search, I did find annual attendance stats for Syracuse from like forever. Since 1999, Syracuse has averaged over 45,000 just once (2012). 45,000 plus average attendance was common between 1987 and 1999. Over the past decade Syracuse typically averages below 40,000, and several years are in the low 30s. Diminished attendance in the Northeast is not limited to FCS. Not saying that we're going to get back to the old attendance numbers of the late 80s - I never insinuated that and I realize that the challenges are much larger than mid-October New England weather. My point was this: of any efforts to move the needle in the positive direction for attendance, winning would be the one that would generate the largest potential for gain. And that one is also entirely out of the marketing department's hands. No FBS team will ever play at Fitton, IMO. It was a huge deal when Army did it at Yale a few years ago, and that was only done to mark a special occasion. Outside of an emergency situation, I don't see it happening again.
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Post by zambonihomie13 on Oct 24, 2016 14:35:24 GMT -5
JYGNYR, I fear simply winning, even dominating, is not going to bring back the crowds of yesteryear. A FBS school, which would be a draw, will not play at Fitton. UMass might, but UConn won't. (Is Rutgers, other than BC, the last school now in a Power Five conference to play at Fitton?) Perhaps, if HC were to offer a nice guarantee to the TPTB in Chestnut Hill, BC might be enticed. Fans won't come in droves to see HC roll over Towson, or Villanova. Will lights, and a later game start help? Probably. But evening games in Worcester lose their appeal from late October on. Also, if an opponent is coming from afar, the opponent may be reluctant to spend for two nights of lodging. And a high-ranked winning team will get more television broadvasts, but at times that could diminish attendance. Would better concessions, renovated restrooms, a video screen help? A much better game-day experience? Certainly. (Then again, the larger the crowd, the more that parking availability becomes an issue.) ______________ I can't find NCAA attendance stats for 1987, the ultimate of the HC 'glory years' era. In my search, I did find annual attendance stats for Syracuse from like forever. Since 1999, Syracuse has averaged over 45,000 just once (2012). 45,000 plus average attendance was common between 1987 and 1999. Over the past decade Syracuse typically averages below 40,000, and several years are in the low 30s. Diminished attendance in the Northeast is not limited to FCS. Spot on. Some other good articles to consider: www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2015/12/22/examining-the-decline-in-college-football-attendances-do-remedies-exist/#7889693d1cd5www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/college-football-attendance-drops-for-fifth-straight-year-but-at-slower-rate/I think that with some of the remedies mentioned by PP (later start times, improved viewing experiences, attractive opponents) combined with a winning program, we could average 10k, which would be fantastic for an FCS school the size of HC. But attendance is down throughout the country at programs of all levels, it is not unique to HC.
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Post by sarasota on Oct 24, 2016 15:01:19 GMT -5
Contract buyout and put it behind us--just like ADNP did with CMB.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Oct 24, 2016 17:07:08 GMT -5
Very much agree, JRG.....and when comparing with the world in the 80s, the pro sports stranglehold on the region is even stronger now, thanks to the NE Patriots. I know they play on Sundays, but there's only so much football the average person (or family) can invest in weekend after weekend. Then there's the fantasy stuff. And - if the 2 major sports radio stations in Boston won't even devote 5 minutes a week to college sports, how can anything take root?
It's all the more reason to give a tip of the fedora to td128 for all of his hard work.
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Attendance
Oct 24, 2016 17:27:16 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by joe on Oct 24, 2016 17:27:16 GMT -5
That's why HC games need to be "community" events that are more than just football, and need to be played at night. There needs to be something else happening on game night to draw fans in. Could be many things. I agree with 'Sota regarding creating a carnival atmosphere. An average attendance of 12k is more than doable with 14-16k for the bigger games. If we consistently do well the numbers will go up.
Unfortunately for now I think we need to close down more of the upper sections with something similar to (but better than) the purple sheets of apathy so that the crowds we do get feel a little denser. I say it all the time that student support is important but in terms of filling the stadium it is virtually irrelevant. Even if every student attended there would still be 23,000 empty seats. We need to energize the Worcester and central MA market, especially young people and families. More outreach to high school and pop warner teams and their families for starters. How about energizing half time shows by known entertainers, along with the band? It just might work.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Oct 24, 2016 17:51:14 GMT -5
Central Mass Night Special, 4 for $50 - 4 tickets, 4 concession meals, 4 (nice) t-shirts, throw a bobble head or two in with it.....
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Post by hc87 on Oct 24, 2016 19:43:32 GMT -5
Crowds at Fitton were already dropping by the late 1980s/early 1990s....not preciptiously so but they weren't as big (week to week) as they were in the late 1970s/early1980s.....games against Yale '81, Colgate '83, the BC games obviously, were drawing around or ovah 20K then.
Explosion of football on TV, games against opponents in the PL that don't travel as well, change in society, HC going co-ed etc etc all led to the decrease in attendance at Fitton.
10-12K on average is probably the ceiling at Fitton in today's college football universe.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Oct 24, 2016 19:57:16 GMT -5
That's about right -- we're not that bad relative to the rest of the Northeast. You mentioned the expansion of college football coverage on TV which is a HUGE factor. Why get up and drive somewhere when you can get your gridiron fix in on your couch spending zero dollars? Not to mention online streaming -- maybe I would have come up for the Harvard game if plugging an HDMI cable into my HDTV wasn't an option. Rain or no rain, the Lehigh game being on SNY definitely factored into the decision for many NY area alumni of both HC and Lehigh to attend Saturday's game.
10-12K average is indeed an approximate ceiling. I can't see much more than 15K coming in for a single game. Maybe a night game against UNH, Harvard or Yale when we have tremendous buzz behind a very good team. The best crowds we've gotten in my time following HC were the UMass and Harvard home games in 2008 and 2009 when we got about 14K each. In both cases, we put all our eggs in one basket with Homecoming, the home opener and a local rival coming to down all happening on one Saturday. We wouldn't even be able to draw like that for a hypothetical playoff game against a name opponent simply because the weather is so cold at that point here.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 24, 2016 20:06:45 GMT -5
The Western Carolina playoff game was relatively "poorly attended" in 1983.....though it would seem like a huge crowd today....roughly 13K I believe.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Oct 24, 2016 20:18:34 GMT -5
The Western Carolina playoff game was relatively "poorly attended" in 1983.....though it would seem like a huge crowd today....roughly 13K I believe. It was also so cold that day that a pint of blackberry brandy did absolutely nothing to numb me or the pain of the loss. The weather def affected the low turnout that day.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 24, 2016 20:22:22 GMT -5
It was a terribly cold day....approached Syracuse '73 frigidity.....why did Cahhhtah punt? ??
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Post by Crucis#1 on Oct 24, 2016 20:24:35 GMT -5
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Oct 24, 2016 20:25:24 GMT -5
People of Worcester used to support Holy Cross. Now they don't. Do you blame them? They'll never come back with attitudes like yours hcgrad94. Has nothing to do with my attitude. HC has had some teams worth supporting in both BB and football in the last 15 years. The product is affordable and accessible. In the internet age people know when the games are played. HC reaches out to youth groups and corporations. There are promotions and family packs. The folks of Worcester have chosen not to attend, which is their right. They have also made this choice with every other college and pro franchise that have come and gone. There is a reason Worcester has failed to thrive over the last 20+ years. I have noticed a lack of leadership and innovation from political class. It's residents are more concerned with where you went to HS than anything else. There is a myopic view of the world that has hurt the city and I think impacted the city in a negative way. Things seem to be looking up and I hope that happens. You may be right about the city's political class but you know nothing about the people of Worcester, at least the people I know. Don't get pissed at the residents of Worcester because they don't get excited about going to watch Holy Cross lose to Lehigh by 50 points.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 24, 2016 20:49:23 GMT -5
As i posted in this or another thread, Villanova has nevah really had a strong following for football....they have had success on the gridiron, particularly ovah the last 15 years at the FCS level...but have nevah drawn big crowds etc....lest we forget, they dropped football for a bit in the 1980s....Holy Cross football has historically had a much larger fan-base locally than Villanova has had on the Main Line. The FCS playoffs are a whole other story, deserving another thread
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Attendance
Oct 24, 2016 21:15:36 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Oct 24, 2016 21:15:36 GMT -5
Take a look around the stands at Fitton (or the Hart for that matter). Average age of the regular HC loyal, local fan is close to retirement age or older (I'm 51 and am one of the younger regulars at games). These are the fans who actually realize HC plays D1 athletics, and remember the golden ages of HC sports. The dismissal of engaging new, younger locals by the previous athletic regime was an absolute killer, as it was needed badly when the teams fortunes fell. Cultivation of new fans had to start from scratch under NP, and it's a looooong uphill climb. This combined with playing in a league that 90% of locals couldn't name another member school, or even a the name of the league is a HUGE problem that becomes a bigger issue when teams aren't winning.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Oct 25, 2016 5:43:01 GMT -5
Has nothing to do with my attitude. HC has had some teams worth supporting in both BB and football in the last 15 years. The product is affordable and accessible. In the internet age people know when the games are played. HC reaches out to youth groups and corporations. There are promotions and family packs. The folks of Worcester have chosen not to attend, which is their right. They have also made this choice with every other college and pro franchise that have come and gone. There is a reason Worcester has failed to thrive over the last 20+ years. I have noticed a lack of leadership and innovation from political class. It's residents are more concerned with where you went to HS than anything else. There is a myopic view of the world that has hurt the city and I think impacted the city in a negative way. Things seem to be looking up and I hope that happens. You may be right about the city's political class but you know nothing about the people of Worcester, at least the people I know. Don't get pissed at the residents of Worcester because they don't get excited about going to watch Holy Cross lose to Lehigh by 50 points. My question remains what do the people of Worcester support? My point is there is a larger issue here than just how the city relates to Holy Cross.
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Post by joe on Oct 25, 2016 6:35:46 GMT -5
I would think the people of Worcester, like people everywhere, would want to come out to support any undertaking which is a source of pride locally and perhaps nationally. I would imagine that when Gordie was making his runs for the Heisman trophy, people came out to see what all the fuss was about, and delighted in seeing Worcester mentioned in the news of the day as a function of Holy Cross and Holy Cross football. You can't plan when or when lightning will strike but you can certainly put up a lightning rod to catch it when it does.
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Oct 25, 2016 7:35:27 GMT -5
You may be right about the city's political class but you know nothing about the people of Worcester, at least the people I know. Don't get pissed at the residents of Worcester because they don't get excited about going to watch Holy Cross lose to Lehigh by 50 points. My question remains what do the people of Worcester support? My point is there is a larger issue here than just how the city relates to Holy Cross. I still maintain the Sharks and Ice Cats had good support, especially for teams not affiliated with the Bruins. The Sharks left to be closer to their home team 3,000 miles away. The Bravehearts lead the league in attendance in the Futures Baseball League. Holy Cross at one time had huge community support. The reason Holy Cross no longer has that support is not because Worcester residents are inward looking or are more concerned about where you went to high school. The reason is 25 years of league downgrades, total de-emphasis on sports, and the mind set that good athletic programs are being in the "entertainment business". I applaud Holy Cross for their current efforts to resurrect their sports programs for their students and the community at large. It will take years of effort and winning teams to do that. But don't wag your finger at the people in this city because they are not bowing down to recognize the greatness of Holy Cross.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 25, 2016 7:42:00 GMT -5
"...bowing down to recognize the greatness of Holy Cross" I can't seem to find that statement anywhere except, perhaps, in your own mind. Do you think such a choice of words makes communication between two sides any more clear? Or, was it just a strong expression of your personal opinion?
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Oct 25, 2016 7:52:51 GMT -5
"...bowing down to recognize the greatness of Holy Cross" I can't seem to find that statement anywhere except, perhaps, in your own mind. Do you think such a choice of words makes communication between two sides any more clear? Or, was it just a strong expression of your personal opinion? Please, I was reacting to the attitude of '94. If that phrase offends you then I apologize. Perhaps I was having the same strong reaction to his disparaging remarks about the people in the city where I live. Were the words of '94 just an expression of his own opinion, or do his choice of words make communication between two sides any more clear?
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Post by wooman on Oct 25, 2016 8:05:57 GMT -5
You're spot on GKS. It is disappointing that people like HC94 who are presumably bright and obviously well educated think that the haughty, elitist approach is somehow going to help muster desperately needed local support for HC's athletic teams. Like you, I have been involved in a myriad of different youth sports organizations in the area and cannot recall an instance where HC has reached out to help expand its footprint in the community. This is not the case with many of the other area colleges. Even Worcester Academy does a better job of building relationships with area youth sports organizations IMHO. The approach of HC94, coupled with an overall mediocre product over the past decade or more, is not a recipe for success.
Again my approach has nothing to do with this I am simply observing things. Haughty and elitist are silly descriptors. There's an old simmering resentment of Holy Cross among some in the Worcester community and I'm not quite sure what it is founded upon. HC quietly goes about making Worcester a better place day after day after day and yet there are some in the community that refuse to see that. Can't be fixed. Not going to get into a pissing match about What leagues Holy Cross has approached to engage over the years but from what I know there was a great deal of Outreach going on every day. You can choose to be skeptical and sit back and be part of the angry minority which is fine. Great things are going on at HC these days and if the good people of Worcester don't want to be part of it then good for them. Your grasp of history on the subject is suspect, '94. For most of its history, HC was a source of pride in Worcester, among alum and non-alum alike - so I'm not sure what the "old simmering resentment" comment is based on because historically the opposite is true. I think that began to change under the Fr. Brooks with his "Holy Cross must do what's best for Holy Cross" ethos. Nonetheless community support for HC athletics persisted through most of the 1980s and into the 1990s because there was a decent product to show up and see. Today you have the double whammy of a sub-par product and the hangover from the lack of institutional engagement in civic affairs which took root during the Brooks era, which brings us to our current point. I think Fr. B and NP could take some pointers from the Bravehearts ownership on how to earn the support of the public.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 25, 2016 8:07:32 GMT -5
"...bowing down to recognize the greatness of Holy Cross" I can't seem to find that statement anywhere except, perhaps, in your own mind. Do you think such a choice of words makes communication between two sides any more clear? Or, was it just a strong expression of your personal opinion? Please, I was reacting to the attitude of '94. If that phrase offends you then I apologize. Perhaps I was having the same strong reaction to his disparaging remarks about the people in the city where I live. Were the words of '94 just an expression of his own opinion, or do his choice of words make communication between two sides any more clear? Thanks for the explanation if your intent. However, I believe '94 was a bit more even-handed: "There is a reason Worcester has failed to thrive over the last 20+ years. I have noticed a lack of leadership and innovation from political class. It's residents are more concerned with where you went to HS than anything else. There is a myopic view of the world that has hurt the city and I think impacted the city in a negative way. Things seem to be looking up and I hope that happens." The reference to "where one went to high school" was IMO a cheap shot. But I also remember the son of a friend being beaten by police officers when at HC and who was slandered by the Worcester police for over two years before it all suddenly disappeared. During that time some vicious statements appeared about him and about HC on social media. Some of them were linked to members of the WPD posting anonymously, but others did show what seemed to be a deep hatred of HC. This all appears to have now been put aside. I would agree with 94 in believing that 'things seem to be looking up" and share his hope that it happens soon for all who live in Worcester (on or off one of the seven hills).
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