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Post by nhteamer on Oct 25, 2016 8:32:27 GMT -5
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 25, 2016 8:47:53 GMT -5
The demographics of Worcester are not what they were 20, 30, 40 years ago. Assuming that 10 percent of HC alumni live in Worcester County, that's about 3,500 individuals. (And 10 percent may be high.) In Worcester city, in 2014, there were about 41,000 residents with a bachelor's degree or higher. In Worcester county in 2014 (includes Worcester city), there were about 255,000 residents with a bachelor's degree or higher. HC alumni thus represent 1.3 percent of college graduates living in Worcester County. Please explain why graduates of BC, BU, UMass etc etc will flock to Holy Cross to watch a Holy Cross team play? Less than 60 percent of the population of Worcester city is white only, non-Hispanic/Latino. The census summaries don't break out this demographic by age cohort, but I am quite certain that the percentage of white only is much higher for the elderly and near-elderly, and 50 percent or less for more youthful cohorts. www.census.gov/quickfacts/table/PST045215/25027,2582000 Holy Cross is much less important to those living in Worcester these days, because their affiliation is with other academic institutions. I do not know how to overcome that, inasmuch as I never hear of posters on this board going to Chestnut Hill to watch a football or basketball game, --simply because they are enthused about a particular sport and/or BC playing in the ACC.
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Post by gks on Oct 25, 2016 9:10:11 GMT -5
Phreek while your financial posts sometimes give me brain freeze your last line in your last post is dead on. HC at some point moved away from it's regional roots. When I was in high school in the area many kids went to HC. Now it's not as common. HC is seen as that school behind the iron fence where students from all over. I can't quote numbers but I can just tell you what I see in the community. Less CMass students means less CMass parents and less CMass alums which translates into less CMass interest. HC chose it's path back in the 80s/90s and the people of Worcester and CMass didn't go for it. Right now HC is just above the interest meter from Assumption, Clark and the other Worcester schools. The one thing I constantly hear from people concerning HC sports, especially football, is the UMass night game from a few years ago. That game was an event and was talked about before and after. HC men's run was similar last season but not on the same scope.,
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Post by hcgrad94 on Oct 25, 2016 9:49:03 GMT -5
Phreek while your financial posts sometimes give me brain freeze your last line in your last post is dead on. HC at some point moved away from it's regional roots. When I was in high school in the area many kids went to HC. Now it's not as common. HC is seen as that school behind the iron fence where students from all over. I can't quote numbers but I can just tell you what I see in the community. Less CMass students means less CMass parents and less CMass alums which translates into less CMass interest. HC chose it's path back in the 80s/90s and the people of Worcester and CMass didn't go for it. Right now HC is just above the interest meter from Assumption, Clark and the other Worcester schools. The one thing I constantly hear from people concerning HC sports, especially football, is the UMass night game from a few years ago. That game was an event and was talked about before and after. HC men's run was similar last season but not on the same scope., There are actually more Worcester public HS grads at HC now than there were 25 years ago. That scholarship announcement 10 years or so ago has opened HC up to some incredible kids.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Oct 25, 2016 9:56:47 GMT -5
"...bowing down to recognize the greatness of Holy Cross" I can't seem to find that statement anywhere except, perhaps, in your own mind. Do you think such a choice of words makes communication between two sides any more clear? Or, was it just a strong expression of your personal opinion? Please, I was reacting to the attitude of '94. If that phrase offends you then I apologize. Perhaps I was having the same strong reaction to his disparaging remarks about the people in the city where I live. Were the words of '94 just an expression of his own opinion, or do his choice of words make communication between two sides any more clear? Nope. I'm just saying HC continues to put affordable accessible family-friendly Division I product year after year. In no way is there any greatness implied, but the reality is we are the only division one game within 40 miles. There are no barriers to entry in terms of cost, accessibility etc. Young kids dont know whether the product is great or good. The good people of Worcester just don't seem to want to attend. I'm just not sure where they do go. By my count six franchises have folded up shopand left town over the last 25 years. The Railers will fail undoubtedly. The Bravehearts are able to survive because they charge very little, serve alcohol and play during the summer.
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Post by CHC8485 on Oct 25, 2016 10:15:42 GMT -5
Again my approach has nothing to do with this I am simply observing things. Haughty and elitist are silly descriptors. There's an old simmering resentment of Holy Cross among some in the Worcester community and I'm not quite sure what it is founded upon. HC quietly goes about making Worcester a better place day after day after day and yet there are some in the community that refuse to see that. Can't be fixed. Not going to get into a pissing match about What leagues Holy Cross has approached to engage over the years but from what I know there was a great deal of Outreach going on every day. You can choose to be skeptical and sit back and be part of the angry minority which is fine. Great things are going on at HC these days and if the good people of Worcester don't want to be part of it then good for them. Your grasp of history on the subject is suspect, '94. For most of its history, HC was a source of pride in Worcester, among alum and non-alum alike - so I'm not sure what the "old simmering resentment" comment is based on because historically the opposite is true. I think that began to change under the Fr. Brooks with his "Holy Cross must do what's best for Holy Cross" ethos. Nonetheless community support for HC athletics persisted through most of the 1980s and into the 1990s because there was a decent product to show up and see. Today you have the double whammy of a sub-par product and the hangover from the lack of institutional engagement in civic affairs which took root during the Brooks era, which brings us to our current point. I think Fr. B and NP could take some pointers from the Bravehearts ownership on how to earn the support of the public. And your grasp of the history is similarly suspect. Fr. Brooks did not create the ethos that Holy Cross must do what's best for Holy Cross. It has always been thus. It started in 1843 when Holy Cross did what was best for Holy Cross in 1843 by finding a way to confer degress when the state would not grant the College a charter and has continued since. I ask you to name one decision Holy Cross made prior to 1980 that was made becasue it will be good for Worcester but perhaps was not in Holy Cross' best interest. Holy Cross' engagement in civic affairs grew under Fr. Brooks and continues to do so to this day. The Holy Cross Student Programs for Urban Development (SPUD) began in 1968 (2 years before Fr. Brooks became president). It and other programs flourished and grew throughout his tenue and have continued to grown since. Holy Cross' engagement in Worcester are not high profile programs. They address the most basic needs of individuals for food, shelter, health and education. Doing that doesn't get you praise from the average citizen, becasue it's not seen. They are programs average citizens don't want to see up close and so do not see nor appreciate the impact. Have you ever been to the Mustard Seed, Abby's House, Matthew 25, the Nativity school, etc. All things Holy Cross supports and is involved with which directly benefit the city. And the community did not support HC athletics through most of the 80's and into the 90s. I was there for basketball games in 1982, '83, '84, & '85 - before Fr. Brooks talked about being in the entertainment business. I don't remember the Hart Center being sold out for too many games when I was a student, particularly in 1984 & 85. Fitton Field was significantly more crowded than today, but I don't remember Fittion Field packed, much less sold out for many games against any school not named Boston College. Yes, in the mid 1980s, when making the announcement about the Colonial League and was asked specifically what the people of Worcester would do for sports entertainment, Fr. Brooks answered in the most arrogant and worst possible way. And that's where your gripe is and what is shaping your perception ... Fr. Brooks flipping you off. You - and other Worcester sports fans - deserve to be angry about that. But please don't lump everything Holy Cross does into the same pot of not caring about the greater Worcester Community. Holy Cross cares deeply about and is involved with the Worcester community. Perhaps you just don't see, value or agree with where HC chooses to be involved and make an impact, but HC as an institution is engaged in the civic affairs of Worcester.
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Post by matunuck on Oct 25, 2016 10:35:56 GMT -5
How many Worcester-area residents at HC has practically zero to do with our overall attendance issues. I, for one, would like far fewer students from MA to be honest.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 25, 2016 10:58:37 GMT -5
I think it interesting to contrast Providence College with HC. Posters have said in the past, if Providence can draw fans, why can't HC?
Putting conference affiliation aside, it appears that Providence had, even before the OBE, institutionalized a level of support in Rhode Island that it has largely been able to hold onto over the decades. I suspect the reason for this is because Providence is a much more regional institution that is able to retain its regional affiliation and allegiances.
Providence average basketball attendance 1978 9168 1979 7989 OBE founded 1980 7811 1996 10535 1997 11030 1998 10198 2014 8347 2015 8614 2016 9703 ^^^ First and last three years of published NCAA hoops attendance, and three mid-point years.
Providence has 55,000 alumni, is it an exaggeration to say that perhaps half live within a 45 minute drive of PC? If so, that's 25,000+ alumni living within a reasonable distance compared to HC's 3,500? in Worcester County.
Average basketball attendance in New England in 2016 UConn was ranked #40 nationally with 10413 Providence ranked #44 Boston College,had the highest average attendance in MA with 3411. (unranked, ranking stops at 100) UMass was second with 3365
(Boston College has 177,000 alumni. If just one percent of BC's alumni regularly attended a BC basketball game, they would be half the average attendance. HC could play the ACC in the Hart and do better than BC, attendance-wise.)
Average hockey attendance in Massachusetts in 2016 UMass Lowell was ranked #8 of 60 schools ranked BC #14 BU #17 UMass Amherst #30 (2,868) (Providence #29 (2,980) Football attendance FBS in 2015 BC's average attendance (30,205) is better than Duke or Wake in the ACC. UMass' average attendance (11,124) exceeds Eastern Michigan (4,897), Ball State (7,974), Georgia State (10,347),
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Post by hc87 on Oct 25, 2016 11:54:31 GMT -5
Couple things....
I always thought Fr Brooks uttered the infamous phrase: "We are not in the entertainment business" in the late 1970s when we didn't join the OBE, not the mid-1980s when PL play started. I could very well be wrong.
Crowds at the Hart were down in the early, mid 80s....a combo imo of (amongst many other things) not joining the OBE, decent/but not great teams etc. There were some bang-out, non-BC football crowds at Fitton in the early 80s.....the ones I mentioned above in this thread were around or ovah 20K...I know for a fact Colgate '83 was like 22K. Harvard, Dartmouth and UMass games were always well attended as well....normally anywhere from 15-20K. There were some light crowds at Fitton then too....usually a factor of a poor opponent, weather etc.
PC's alumni-base is probably somewhat more local than HC's......but not as much as you state pp. PC has basically captured the RI/SE Mass market since the Joe Mullaney (HC'49) into the Gavitt era and beyond....their fan-base is heavily "subway-alums"
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 25, 2016 12:02:06 GMT -5
Does HC really have 3,500 alums in Worcester County? I think that number is way, way too high--and it should be easy to check in an alumni directory
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Post by CHC8485 on Oct 25, 2016 16:12:30 GMT -5
Couple things.... I always thought Fr Brooks uttered the infamous phrase: "We are not in the entertainment business" in the late 1970s when we didn't join the OBE, not the mid-1980s when PL play started. I could very well be wrong. Crowds at the Hart were down in the early, mid 80s....a combo imo of (amongst many other things) not joining the OBE, decent/but not great teams etc. There were some bang-out, non-BC football crowds at Fitton in the early 80s.....the ones I mentioned above in this thread were around or ovah 20K...I know for a fact Colgate '83 was like 22K. Harvard, Dartmouth and UMass games were always well attended as well....normally anywhere from 15-20K. There were some light crowds at Fitton then too....usually a factor of a poor opponent, weather etc. PC's alumni-base is probably somewhat more local than HC's......but not as much as you state pp. PC has basically captured the RI/SE Mass market since the Joe Mullaney (HC'49) into the Gavitt era and beyond....their fan-base is heavily "subway-alums" My memory is fading and I am not 100% certain it was in reponse to the official move to the Colonial League, but I'm pretty sure I was working at HC at the time becasue I recall Mike McGrath and Paul McMaster discussing what the change meant with respect to recruiting in the Swords staff lounge. As to crowds, I said I'm betting most of the larger crowds you are recalling - which includes the Colgate sell-out - also occurred in conjunction with Homecoming or Parents Weekend. A game or two with a significant portion of the crowd made up of HC Alumni and Family in the crowd does not constitiute Worcester supporting the team. When teams are good, support from Worcester has been solid, but by the 80's Holy Cross was no longer "Worcester's team" I've been searching newpaper archives for reports with attendance to back up this hypothesis. I found this in the NY Times. HC played Columbia at Fitton on 10/31/81 and 10/29/83. They drew 8,041 in 1981 and 12,861 in 1983 - the game Fennerty ran for a TD every time he touched the ball. A nice improvement with a much better 1983 team, but about 60% of Fitton's capacity at that time. Will post others as I find more, but my point remains that the support of the HC teams - even the good ones - in the 80's into the 90s is not as strong as some remember. And by the way - I don't blame the fans from Worcester for not supporting bad teams in neglected facilities. Patriots tickets were rountinely available when the team stunk and played in Schaeffer/Sullivan/Foxboro Stadium. The Big Tuna and then Bob Kraft arrived and things changed. Same is possible here. And speaking of Parcells ... he's available and has college head coaching experience.
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Attendance
Oct 25, 2016 16:20:35 GMT -5
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Post by bikeman on Oct 25, 2016 16:20:35 GMT -5
This program needs a spark. You could get an average attendance of 12000-15000 which would be damn good.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 25, 2016 18:37:47 GMT -5
Does HC really have 3,500 alums in Worcester County? I think that number is way, way too high--and it should be easy to check in an alumni directory You could be right, in that I was too generous in suggesting that 10 percent of 35,000 alums lived in Worcester County. I know HC70 continually complained about what he considered to be the semi-comatose nature of the Worcester club. The truer percentage might be five percent. _________________________ I think a fair question to ask is whether HC is out-performing its Division I peers in Massachusetts in terms of attendance. If it is, and IMO, the data indicate such, how much in the way of future attendance growth is a realistic goal? * UMass Amherst: The total of the combined average attendance for football, M basketball, and M ice hockey is equivalent to 85 percent of the undergraduate enrollment * Holy Cross. An attendance level that is 85 percent of the undergraduate enrollment would mean the total of the combined average attendance for football, M basketball, and M ice hockey would be about 2400+. * Boston University. The total of the average combined attendance for M basketball and M ice hockey is 31 percent of the undergraduate enrollment. * Northeastern. The total of the average combined attendance for M basketball and M ice hockey is also 31 percent of the undergraduate enrollment. * Boston College. The total of the average combined attendance for M basketball and M ice hockey is 90 percent of the undergraduate enrollment. * Harvard The total of the average combined attendance for M basketball and M ice hockey is 62 percent of the undergraduate enrollment. * Holy Cross. The total of the average combined attendance for M basketball and M ice hockey is 94 percent of the undergraduate enrollment. * UMass Lowell (re-classifying) is about 75 percent. Harvard football average attendance is about 185 percent of undergraduate enrollment, HC football average attendance is about 230 percent of undergraduate enrollment, Boston College football average attendance is about 320 percent of undergraduate enrollment. _______________________ An average attendance of 9120 for HC football would be 320 percent of the undergraduate enrollment, same as BC achieved in 2015.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 25, 2016 22:29:09 GMT -5
As many know, my family roots go back to Worcester where my maternal grandfather and grandmother immigrated from Ireland. My mother is a Worcester native and married my Dad '42 in Worcester, officiated by Fr. Hart. I grew up in a family hearing stories about how close the Worcester community was to Holy Cross and vice versa. In another era, almost everyone in Worcester either had a relative or a neighbor who went to Holy Cross. Worcesterites aspired to attend and graduate from Holy Cross.
Over time, circumstances change. The ethnic make-up of Worcester has changed, no longer predominately Irish and Italian. The geographic make-up of Holy Cross has changed. The college athletic landscape has changed. Holy Cross was once considered a large college and obviously was once all male. Other colleges and universities got bigger, Holy Cross decided to remain almost the same size, making it relatively smaller. The entertainment options available to students and locals alike have expanded exponentially so that the sports that were once the pride of Holy Cross success (basketball and football) are not events that as many people seem to find an interest neither student nor Worcesterite.
To say or imply that Holy Cross has abandoned, or just doesn't care about Worcester is flat out wrong. The most recent example is the free tuition for locals under a certain income. But as 8485 correctly noted, there are so many things that Holy Cross has done for the Worcester community. I recall doing volunteer work as a Big Brother at the Nazareth Home for Boys my last two years at Holy Cross in the late 60's (though I didn't recall it being called "SPUD" at the time and only heard that name later, we just did it).
To say that Worcester abandoned Holy Cross would be equally wrong. But the closeness that once existed is gone. Bridges need to be re-built from both ends.
While it may be a bit of a stretch to paraphrase "What's good for GM is good for the country," there are probably few things that are not mutually good or bad for both Holy Cross and Worcester.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 26, 2016 6:15:02 GMT -5
sader1970, well said.
We could also go back to an era when the T&G was read in most Worcester homes; its sports section replete with daily articles on HC athletics, and the Sunday paper would have reporting by two or three writers on Saturday's football game.. And sportswriters from the Globe and Herald would regularly cover a football contest. People knew about Holy Cross because they regularly read about Holy Cross.
And we discussed, ad infinitum, on the old board about Holy Cross' and Worcester's great disadvantage in being part of the Boston media market, --and thus unlike Providence or Hartford. And the Boston media market is all about professional sports, probably followed by high school, then college. (They aren't selling papers on college campuses, and the Nielsen ratings for local news/sports at BU or BC are probably too small too measure.)
Finally, IMO and only partly tongue in cheek, the importance of HC football, regionally and nationally, ended when it dropped off the betting cards.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Oct 26, 2016 6:23:17 GMT -5
This program needs a spark. You could get an average attendance of 12000-15000 which would be damn good. Attendance at that level would make us a complete outlier in the FCS. Only the larger State universities at our level draw anything close to that. The University of Richmond built a stadium that seats about 9000.
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Post by bigfan on Oct 26, 2016 7:14:40 GMT -5
PP writes "Why does Providence have good attendance and HC does not". Simple answer the Friars are in the Big East and not in the Patriot League. Also, I did give up my football season tickets many years ago and bought season tickets to BC to see top notch football being played.
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Post by hchoops on Oct 26, 2016 7:25:32 GMT -5
PP writes "Why does Providence have good attendance and HC does not". Simple answer the Friars are in the Big East and not in the Patriot League. Also, I did give up my football season tickets many years ago and bought season tickets to BC to see top notch football being played. At least with one team
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Post by sarasota on Oct 26, 2016 8:16:48 GMT -5
Is there any other college in the Country with a student population under 3,000 and a football stadium with 23,500 seats?
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Post by hc6774 on Oct 26, 2016 8:23:23 GMT -5
Is there any other college in the Country with a student population under 3,000 and a football stadium with 23,500 seats? Yale & Harvard Colleges
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Oct 26, 2016 8:53:19 GMT -5
Is there any other college in the Country with a student population under 3,000 and a football stadium with 23,500 seats? Yale & Harvard Colleges Pretty sure both schools are more than double 3,000 for undergrads.
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Post by joe on Oct 26, 2016 9:19:59 GMT -5
H and Y not good comparisons given how enormous the universities are.
For a school of Holy Cross' ilk, there are no comparisons, not even close. Frankly that's what makes even our recently depressed attendance numbers all the more impressive, and the attendance at night games really respectable. This is why we have to believe there is a fan base that needs re-awakening.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Oct 26, 2016 9:53:18 GMT -5
H and Y not good comparisons given how enormous the universities are. For a school of Holy Cross' ilk, there are no comparisons, not even close. Colgate. Different schools, but Wofford and Furman are interesting FCS comparisons.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 26, 2016 10:17:18 GMT -5
Army and Navy are probably close approximations too...(undergrad enrollment/size of football stadia)
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Attendance
Oct 26, 2016 10:18:33 GMT -5
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Post by joe on Oct 26, 2016 10:18:33 GMT -5
Stadia capacities: Colgate 10k Wofford 13k Furman 16k Holy Cross 25k
Nothing matches HC in terms of stadium capacity to student body ratio. It's a very unique and, many would say, special situation, that is often under emphasized and under appreciated. With a few bleachers thrown in at the open end we'd have a BCS capacity stadium I think.
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