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Post by hchoops on Aug 10, 2021 17:01:00 GMT -5
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Post by sader1970 on Aug 10, 2021 17:32:06 GMT -5
I might have missed it at Holy Cross but don't recall any faculty senate; student senate or alumni group supporting the dispatch of the Crusader.
My recollection, perhaps faulty, was there was a vocal minority of faculty (mostly non-Christians) against the Crusader. The 2 "discussion groups" I attended on campus were mostly pro-Crusader. Not aware the Alumni Association was asked or opined on the matter. Thought a student poll result was mostly to keep the Crusader, some against but a lot had no opinion. The student newspaper name was changed based on their editorial board IIRC.
The BoT asked Fr. B to look for a possible different version of the Crusader. He chose to discard it entirely while retaining the name which was a grand way of alienating both sides.
The Crusader name came about based on a student poll back in 1925. If the mascot was discarded based on the current students voting, I'd understand and accept that.
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Post by timholycross on Aug 10, 2021 20:00:41 GMT -5
Hopefully Holy Cross considers the matter closed for the foreseeable future, especially w/a new leadership team coming in.
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Post by HC92 on Aug 10, 2021 20:10:18 GMT -5
Hopefully Holy Cross considers the matter closed for the foreseeable future, especially w/a new leadership team coming in. These things are never closed. Only a matter of time before the issue comes back at HC even though we’re now only nice, gentle Crusaders.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Aug 10, 2021 20:41:11 GMT -5
We see example after example of a "woke" minority imposing its will on a complacent majority
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Post by Crucis#1 on Aug 10, 2021 20:41:14 GMT -5
I wonder if Sr. Mary Elephant would approve of a group of marauders (crusaders) on rampage to her classroom? Some of us know the answer from Big Bamboo... It certainly would hurt. I fully understand this musing may not be understood, if you did not listen to Cheech and Chong in college. For those who did, you know her solution. With Valparaiso, they had to make the change due to the attempt by the Klan to create a Klan University at Valparaiso in the early 20th Century. They and other Supremacist groups have usurped the term of “Crusader”, to the point when mentioned can make one cringe when hearing the term during speeches or rallies meant to galvanize division. blog.newspapers.library.in.gov/ku-klux-u-how-the-klan-almost-bought-a-university/Mascots are an anachronism of branding identification from the 19th and 20th Century. Each day they become more and more superfluous, and bare little relevance to how current students or alum identify with a college or university. When was the last time you heard an Alum of Colgate referred to him or herself as a Raider, or UMass as a Minuteman or Minutewoman, or U Maine as a BlackBear. Time for Holy Cross Alum to identify based on the color of their blood......Purple. Time to move on and focus on issues that are real importance to HC....Endowment, Financial Aid, Admission Recruiting and Selectivity, Academic Recognition.
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Post by rgs318 on Aug 10, 2021 20:50:35 GMT -5
Actually I hear alums (alumni/alumnae) refer to themselves and their fellow alumni in just that way on a regular basis...especially as it refers to sports at their college. They do not become more "superfluous" each day, even though attitudes toward college sports are different than they once were.
Valpariso's situation is far different than that at the Cross. The attempt by the Klan to take over the university at Valpariso was a very close thing and makes the use of Crusader with clear Klan connection offensive to many at that college in a special way.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Aug 10, 2021 21:46:15 GMT -5
Of the 15 individuals who currently comprise TPTB at HC, ten are women. I don't think they are keen on militant crusader imagery. Jesuit deaths in recent years in North America are outnumbering Jesuit ordinations 7:1. At that rate, how much longer for the Jesuits on-campus, unless they are Asian or South American?
The crusader nickname arose at a time when only professed Catholic males were admitted to Holy Cross. The Federal government ended the apparently 100 years of religious discrimination, and Holy Cross took the initiative to end the gender discrimination.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Aug 10, 2021 22:31:22 GMT -5
I have heard alums at schools refer to themselves in terms not of that particular schools athletic mascot. There is a university that is 56 miles to the northeast of Valparaiso, where the reference they use regarding their affinity to the institution is that of “Domers”. Rarely outside of athletics, have I heard a ND alum refer to himself or herself as “Fighting Irish”, unless they happen to be a member of that nationality. welcomeweekend.nd.edu/questions/domer-dictionary/It may be generational, but it seems that affinity to a college or university is not stated by recent alums as the schools mascot. Neither my daughter, or her college friends in my conversations with them refer to themselves as xxxx or the school color. Maybe because their Alma Mater no longer has an official mascot, which was banished almost 50 years ago. They do have a band with a unique pseudo mascot, but no one refers to themselves based on the bands mascot.
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 10, 2021 22:58:39 GMT -5
Thank God the Klan is anti-Catholic also. That insulates us from Valpo's dilemma to some degree. I haven't heard the term "Bald Eagles" much lately even as the BC grads I know mostly now have gleaming bald domes. In the sports pages of yesteryear columnists would suggest a coaching change was imminent at the Heights because the "Bald Eagles" were losing patience.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Aug 10, 2021 23:07:42 GMT -5
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 10, 2021 23:30:31 GMT -5
Despite illogical prejudices, humans are more similar than dis-similar. When I read the phrase "The Fiery Cross" it sounded like "The Foggy Dew," the entrance song in Tokyo for Irish (Catholic) gold medal winning boxer Kellie Harrington.
Groups like the Klan try to accentuate the small differences between groups of humans but hopefully that is fading as the world wide web lets us get to know and understand each other better.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Aug 11, 2021 5:54:30 GMT -5
Thank God the Klan is anti-Catholic also. That insulates us from Valpo's dilemma to some degree. I haven't heard the term "Bald Eagles" much lately even as the BC grads I know mostly now have gleaming bald domes. In the sports pages of yesteryear columnists would suggest a coaching change was imminent at the Heights because the "Bald Eagles" were losing patience. The Holy Cross Crusaders appellation was bestowed by a sports writer who was a 32nd degree Mason. And we know what the R.C. church thought of the Masons. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_ban_of_Freemasonry#:~:text=From%201738%20until%201983%2C%20Catholics,exists%20in%20a%20different%20form. The College of the Holy Cross was named after the Cathedral of the Holy Cross in Boston, which was originally the Church of the Holy Cross.. The original Church of the Holy Cross was founded and named by a French abbe, because it held a relic of the "true cross". The abbe had once been a parish priest in Poitiers, where there was an Abbaye de Sainte-Croix de Poitiers, which held a relic of the "true cross". The relic of the "true cross" in Boston, still venerated at the Cathedral, is an 18th Century fake, created by the abbe in the West Indies, from whence the abbe came before arriving in Boston aboard a French naval squadron. The Abbey's "true cross" has some historic legitimacy. www.researchgate.net/publication/236726421_Their_Cross_to_Bear_Controversy_and_the_Relic_of_the_True_Cross_in_PoitiersBoston's does not. The Boston relic is encased in a mahogany box, which is a dead give-away to its fraudulent origin.
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Post by sader1970 on Aug 11, 2021 6:48:41 GMT -5
Really not trying to prolong this discussion which we've had over the last few years but while the decision was made (with Crucis being one who approves for the many reasons he's stated and has some merit), my point above was that it was made by one person. While Fr. B gave his reasons and they went through a fig-leaf process of campus discussions, in my conversation with the chairman of the BoT, the Board did not make the decision; the alums limited input was ignored; the students did not "vote" on this. Granted Holy Cross is not a democracy and my disappointment is not just with Fr. B but the Board for not putting the brakes on him as he did answer to them. He went beyond the direction that they gave him and they let him for a decision he happened to "discern" was the right one.
For many, like Fr. Markey who so eloquently stated at one of the campus discussions and myself, the Crusader was more than a mascot. Fr. Markey said "I AM a Crusader."
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Post by alum on Aug 11, 2021 7:03:26 GMT -5
Really not trying to prolong this discussion which we've had over the last few years but while the decision was made (with Crucis being one who approves for the many reasons he's stated and has some merit), my point above was that it was made by one person. While Fr. B gave his reasons and they went through a fig-leaf process of campus discussions, in my conversation with the chairman of the BoT, the Board did not make the decision; the alums limited input was ignored; the students did not "vote" on this. Granted Holy Cross is not a democracy and my disappointment is not just with Fr. B but the Board for not putting the brakes on him as he did answer to them. He went beyond the direction that they gave him and they let him for a decision he happened to "discern" was the right one. For many, like Fr. Markey who so eloquently stated at one of the campus discussions and myself, the Crusader was more than a mascot. Fr. Markey said "I AM a Crusader." Has your life changed in the least because they changed some imagery and ditched a guy/girl in a costume? (I like lots of mascots, but I never liked Iggy I thought he made us look like a joke. I feel the same way about Wally.) Here is an article about branding and imagery and funny names in minor league baseball. www.nytimes.com/2021/08/10/sports/baseball/brandiose-trash-pandas.html?searchResultPosition=1
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Post by hcpride on Aug 11, 2021 7:54:36 GMT -5
Really not trying to prolong this discussion which we've had over the last few years but while the decision was made (with Crucis being one who approves for the many reasons he's stated and has some merit), my point above was that it was made by one person. While Fr. B gave his reasons and they went through a fig-leaf process of campus discussions, in my conversation with the chairman of the BoT, the Board did not make the decision; the alums limited input was ignored; the students did not "vote" on this. Granted Holy Cross is not a democracy and my disappointment is not just with Fr. B but the Board for not putting the brakes on him as he did answer to them. He went beyond the direction that they gave him and they let him for a decision he happened to "discern" was the right one. For many, like Fr. Markey who so eloquently stated at one of the campus discussions and myself, the Crusader was more than a mascot. Fr. Markey said "I AM a Crusader." Has your life changed in the least because they changed some imagery and ditched a guy/girl in a costume? (I like lots of mascots, but I never liked Iggy I thought he made us look like a joke. I feel the same way about Wally.) Here is an article about branding and imagery and funny names in minor league baseball. www.nytimes.com/2021/08/10/sports/baseball/brandiose-trash-pandas.html?searchResultPosition=1Sometimes mascots can, in a way, be the source of racial incidents (this one was all over the news yesterday and involves the Colorado Rockies mascot ‘Dinger’): www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fan-caught-mic-apparently-shouting-racial-slur-miami-marlins-player-n1276327He/she/it may be due for a name change.
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Post by sader1970 on Aug 11, 2021 9:04:46 GMT -5
I get that some of you - generally younger alums with exceptions - think a mascot/logo are passe or juvenile or just worthless. While I hated the nickname "Iggy," and certainly preferred the Crusader that was a real person in a costume and, even better, on horseback, I can tell you my grandchildren loved the foam-costumed, non-threatening "Iggy" version.
What did I lose? Actually gained, unhappy grandchildren (yeah I still have them but they aren't as happy and now resistant going to HC games).
My larger point was this was a one-man decision to overturn a tradition who did not come from that tradition. It's something in the heart, not the head. But, my connection to Holy Cross is heart, not head. I no longer "get" anything from Holy Cross. But the connection of my family and faith and Classmates to Holy Cross is why I support the College. The best orators appeal to the heart not the head.
Bottom line: I'm not going to convince any anti-Crusaders here. I suspect you won't convince any pro-Crusaders to your position either.
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Post by rgs318 on Aug 11, 2021 9:13:53 GMT -5
Well, one thing I "got" was the belief that my opinion no longer matters to HC (or at least to some of its students and faculty) because I am old and/or do not agree with some current view. I also learned that their feelings matter a great deal ("If even one person is offended it must be changed") but mine matter not a whit. The fact that I try to regularly contribute to the college seems to make my opinion even more offensive. It is all a bit bizarre. I did not care much for Iggy, but could accept that some liked him. However, some seem to have been offended by his large foam sword. I wonder how many Muslims were harmed by foam? Well, he is now gone, as is the Crusader on horseback so as not to offend anyone. I must confess I am really offended by that.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Aug 11, 2021 9:26:28 GMT -5
Twenty years ago, a comment by GWB sent us down the rabbit hole regarding the concept of crusade and its impact of schools, particularly college and universities that had adopted the crusader mascot. I cringed when I heard him mention crusade, as I knew it would open old wounds in a already volatile region of the world. Several years ago, several of my classmates travel as a group to Israel. While in a market in Jerusalem, they were talking to a T Shirt merchant, who asked where they were from and why they were there. They mentioned they were college classmates. The merchant asked where, when they mentioned Holy Cross, he went to the internet and pulled up the mascot icon, and wanted to print on a T shirt for them to buy. They declined, as each were reluctant to wear any Holy Cross apparel that featured the mascot due their understanding of how it would be perceived. The question facing Colleges and Universities that have international students, how do you defend the use of imagery and iconography that is divisive. It seems as many are tone deaf regarding how the imagery is perceived, and possibly impact on Holy Cross admissions and reputation. Please read the articles below that were written in September 2001. We can now see that many did not take heed. www.wsj.com/articles/SB1001020294332922160?reflink=desktopwebshare_permalinkwww.csmonitor.com/2001/0919/p12s2-woeu.html
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Post by res on Aug 11, 2021 9:39:43 GMT -5
I've got no real skin in this game, but I think that you guys are missing the more salient aspect of this story. Instead of focusing on the name Valpo gave up, consider the name they are adopting.
BEACONS??? And, yes, I am shouting. I hope they didn't pay a marketing firm for this one.
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Post by sader1970 on Aug 11, 2021 9:50:36 GMT -5
Sorry, "tone-deafness" goes both ways and tell me again how the loss of the Crusader mascot/logo has sent the admissions on an uphill trend? ("possibly" being your operative word).
I can tell you factually that a significant number of my classmates have reduced or eliminated their donations to Holy Cross as a result of this decision. So while there is a negative financial impact to this decision (yes, I know, total donations are up but that is due to a few big donors like the late Mrs. Williams, the Priors, Luths, etc. not the "rank & file" alums and those aren't going to happen most years), I don't claim that should be the biggest factor for decision-makers.
Whether I remain in the PC or decide to donate $1 (if you donate nothing, HC staff assumes you simply forgot to give - $1 is a statement) next year depends on Vince. Was going to take the latter position but when Fr. B resigned, I wanted to give new guy a chance. And, yes, I know, my donations are the proverbial "drop in the bucket" and wouldn't be missed unless and until a few thousand other alums do the same.
FWIW, the one bright spot of the Covid postponement of the 1970 50th Reunion was I didn't have to get my Purple Knight pin from Fr. B. For the slightly younger folks (1971 and younger), the "Purple Knight" pin no longer has a knight (Crusader) despite them telling me that they have a stock of them and not giving us the choice, Yeah, as posted above, this is a heart not a head issue for me.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Aug 11, 2021 10:13:37 GMT -5
One should not take it personally. Imagery changes are generational. The WWII generation certainly did not approve of rock and roll, dances like the twist (which I remember Sister St. Ambrose stating it was “the devil’s dance to temptation”), long hair, and other societal changes of the 1950’s and 1960’s.
The Crusades and The Doctrine of Discovery and Manifest Destiny were doctrines that caused irreparable harm to millions of people who were in the path of destruction. As a student of history, too often the concept of “might means right” has been the mantra for misadventures.
The HC “Powers to Be”, seem to understand why the past iconography is detrimental to the sustainability of the college. My opinion, the continued use of the iconography posed a potential safety and security threat to those on campus. As we know, the Jesuits have many secrets, the true rationale for some changes is best not discussed in a public forum.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Aug 11, 2021 10:38:58 GMT -5
The change of mascots has produced a visceral reaction to the Old Guard at many institutions. It’s happen at Stanford, Dartmouth, Colgate, Elon, Marquette, St. John’s, UMass, to name a few schools that understood the previous mascot did not properly represent the school. In the particular case of both Stanford and Dartmouth, who dropped their mascots in the 1970’s, they have not instituted a new official mascot for their athletic teams. However their unofficial mascots Tree and Keggie the Keg, have displayed humor and creativity that the previous mascots could not attempt to portray.
I understand some like to maintain the traditions of their halcyon days on the hill. I was there for two of their four years of the Class of 1970. But like Oldsmobiles, Plymouths, and Pontiacs, and imagery and products of that era, time has come for retirement. Their usefulness and purpose has past, just like the image on a pancake box and the brand of rice.
Fall out is inevitable by those who have not agreed with image changes to the college. It occurred in 1968, with Fr. Brooks initiative for integration, and in 1972, with Co-Education. Each move has enhanced the college.
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Post by alum on Aug 11, 2021 11:02:28 GMT -5
I get that some of you - generally younger alums with exceptions - think a mascot/logo are passe or juvenile or just worthless. While I hated the nickname "Iggy," and certainly preferred the Crusader that was a real person in a costume and, even better, on horseback, I can tell you my grandchildren loved the foam-costumed, non-threatening "Iggy" version. What did I lose? Actually gained, unhappy grandchildren (yeah I still have them but they aren't as happy and now resistant going to HC games). My larger point was this was a one-man decision to overturn a tradition who did not come from that tradition. It's something in the heart, not the head. But, my connection to Holy Cross is heart, not head. I no longer "get" anything from Holy Cross. But the connection of my family and faith and Classmates to Holy Cross is why I support the College. The best orators appeal to the heart not the head. Bottom line: I'm not going to convince any anti-Crusaders here. I suspect you won't convince any pro-Crusaders to your position either. Sader— There is a third group in addition to Pro Crusader and anti Crusader sets and I would suggest it is the largest one—people who really just don’t care. They understand both sides of the argument but just can’t get worked up about it. Most of those people probably liked the compromise because it sort of put the debate to rest
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 11, 2021 11:09:04 GMT -5
I've got no real skin in this game, but I think that you guys are missing the more salient aspect of this story. Instead of focusing on the name Valpo gave up, consider the name they are adopting. BEACONS??? And, yes, I am shouting. I hope they didn't pay a marketing firm for this one. No, but they had to pay UMass Boston a royalty fee. If we play Valpo maybe we can improve to .500 against Beacons.
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