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Post by sader1970 on Sept 8, 2021 8:39:00 GMT -5
Can't prove anything as I don't have the stats but my distinct impression, despite the addition of "Contemplative Center" (good, ecumenical name, right?), is that the College is becoming less "Catholic" and the students more religiously/no religion diverse. So, shouldn't be surprising if there are fewer and fewer students - and faculty - at these ceremonies. If we don't watch it, we'll become the next Georgetown!
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 8, 2021 8:47:36 GMT -5
Bite your tongue!
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 8, 2021 9:10:31 GMT -5
🤪 Done!
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Sept 8, 2021 9:22:09 GMT -5
There were numerous Jesuits at the Mass of the Holy Spirit welcoming the freshman class on their first afternoon on campus. Yes, there were. Eight. Their numbers are diminishing by the year. Here's a tangent, but still a Jesuit note. At Parish Council meeting last night our pastor noted that his uncle was celebrating 80 years with the Jesuits, The uncle is 97 YO and a priest in India-joined Jesuits at age 17-
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 8, 2021 9:25:40 GMT -5
In 2021, there were 17 Jesuit ordinations in the four North American provinces. Data from 2013-17 record an average of 105 Jesuit deaths a year in the North American provinces.
The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops estimated that by 2025, religious sisters, brothers and religious order priests (this includes the Jesuits) who are over 70 years of age will outnumber those under age 70 by nearly 4 to 1. I believe it was Longsuffering who analogized the decline in numbers of religious order clergy to the Shakers.
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 8, 2021 9:44:21 GMT -5
I'm sure he didn't take his final vows and was a priest at 17. My grandfather, as I've posted before, was in the Jesuits. He joined in 1911 and left in 1921 and while on the faculty of BC High School and Loyola (Baltimore), he left before taking his final vows and becoming a priest. But, based on pictures in the family archives, I do think he was considered a Jesuit and had "S.J." after his name.
In any case, wow! Congratulations to that Jesuit.
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Post by Tom on Sept 8, 2021 9:47:07 GMT -5
Can't prove anything as I don't have the stats but my distinct impression, despite the addition of "Contemplative Center" (good, ecumenical name, right?), is that the College is becoming less "Catholic" and the students more religiously/no religion diverse. So, shouldn't be surprising if there are fewer and fewer students - and faculty - at these ceremonies. If we don't watch it, we'll become the next Georgetown! I think yes and no I firmly believe that the percentage of students who identify themselves as "Catholic" is going down and the school is becoming more diverse. During the school year, I head up to school Sunday evening if I missed Mass that morning for some reason. Attendance is way down from my days on campus and dwindling. That being said, no matter how these kids identify themselves, even as they aren't participating in some of the formal ceremonial stuff, putting Christian principles like loving one's neighbor into action is as high as it has ever been. A ridiculously high percentage of HC kids do some sort of service thing during the year. The school changed the academic calendar adding a week off in the fall because of high demand for service projects. Someone could make an argument that the kid who never goes to Mass but spends Spring Break building houses for Habitat for Humanity is no less Catholic than the regular church goer who spent Spring Break in a Daytona bar.
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 8, 2021 9:53:31 GMT -5
I'll make the argument that the kid who builds houses for Humanity is a stellar human being, a solid Christian and, he/she can build houses and still go to Mass and be a good Catholic. (If they are building in the boondocks and no Catholic Mass in the area, the Church accepts and excuses that and would also accept that not having a Mass in the vicinity should not preclude the kid from going to build houses).
Jimmy Carter and his wife built lots of houses and are outstanding Christians (IMHO) but he would not be confused to be Catholic.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Sept 8, 2021 10:01:17 GMT -5
Regarding membership in Religious Orders......
What will be the tipping point for the current model? What are the demographic projections?
Who will have the courage in the hierarchy to state it is no longer sustainable?
What changes are needed to make it viable?
Does anyone care to venture or is the issue too emotional for discussion?
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 8, 2021 10:05:59 GMT -5
Let's just say that my father and uncle are likely already rolling over in their graves.
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Post by Tom on Sept 8, 2021 10:21:26 GMT -5
I'll make the argument that the kid who builds houses for Humanity is a stellar human being, a solid Christian and, he/she can build houses and still go to Mass and be a good Catholic. (If they are building in the boondocks and no Catholic Mass in the area, the Church accepts and excuses that and would also accept that not having a Mass in the vicinity should not preclude the kid from going to build houses). Jimmy Carter and his wife built lots of houses and are outstanding Christians (IMHO) but he would not be confused to be Catholic. In a spineless response, I said someone could make an argument, not that it was fact. Of course for about 3/4 of the history of the Catholic church, being an outstanding Christian was synonymous with being an outstanding Catholic
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 8, 2021 10:27:41 GMT -5
Ah, my friend, you changed the context of your statement. Thought you were referencing Holy Cross, not religious orders/Jesuits. So, I'll revise my response: "my grandfather is rolling over in his grave!"
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Sept 8, 2021 10:35:15 GMT -5
Regarding membership in Religious Orders...... What will be the tipping point for the current model? What are the demographic projections? Who will have the courage in the hierarchy to state it is no longer sustainable? What changes are needed to make it viable? Does anyone care to venture or is the issue too emotional for discussion? Is there any chance of religious orders merging so that the combined new order would be of more sustainable size? Before that we'll likely see a pullout from certain markets to achieve that sustainable size within the order in fewer cities.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Sept 8, 2021 10:52:29 GMT -5
Ah, my friend, you changed the context of your statement. Thought you were referencing Holy Cross, not religious orders/Jesuits. So, I'll revise my response: "my grandfather is rolling over in his grave!" After I hit create post, I realized I needed additional clarification and reference to the previous notation regarding the Shakers.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Sept 8, 2021 10:55:40 GMT -5
On second thought, the questions apply both to Religious Orders, as well as the current HC model. All questions that should be part of the long range strategic plan. Otherwise, they are playing Ostrich.
Change is difficult for many to accept. It happens every day. 🙂
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 8, 2021 11:27:05 GMT -5
Regarding membership in Religious Orders...... What will be the tipping point for the current model? What are the demographic projections? Who will have the courage in the hierarchy to state it is no longer sustainable? What changes are needed to make it viable? Does anyone care to venture or is the issue too emotional for discussion? There is no good answer. I fully anticipate that in the not-so-distant future, HC will become a liberal arts college in the Jesuit tradition.
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 8, 2021 12:45:41 GMT -5
Isn’t it already? Lay president. Mostly lay board. No longer “theology” but “religious studies.” Etc. etc.
Correct me if I am wrong but the College is no longer owned by either the Jesuits or the Catholic Church or the Diocese of Worcester.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 8, 2021 14:20:09 GMT -5
Isn’t it already? Lay president. Mostly lay board. No longer “theology” but “religious studies.” Etc. etc. Correct me if I am wrong but the College is no longer owned by either the Jesuits or the Catholic Church or the Diocese of Worcester. It was never 'owned' by the Jesuits*, the Catholic church, or the diocese of Worcester. [* It may have been owned by the Province of Maryland between 1843 and 1865, before incorporation. However, my customary and usual consulting fee for determining pre-1865 ownership would likely be a considerable sum.] I believe the college is characterized as being affiliated with the Jesuits.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Sept 8, 2021 14:33:53 GMT -5
Is the college technically owned by the Board of Trustees?
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Post by rgs318 on Sept 8, 2021 14:49:19 GMT -5
I have not seen the HC incorporation papers, but I would think so.
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Post by mm67 on Sept 8, 2021 15:37:39 GMT -5
Merged Religious Orders: BeneJebs? Jebbens?DomJebs?AugieJebs? Or, versa vice.
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 8, 2021 16:07:29 GMT -5
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Post by sader1970 on Sept 8, 2021 16:14:32 GMT -5
Would appear to be the corporation is owner independent of church, diocese or Jesuits: Current Value Assessment Valuation Year Improvements Land Total 2021 $180,001,100 $109,242,200 $289,243,300 Owner of Record Owner COLLEGE OF THE HOLY CROSS Co-Owner Address OFFICE OF THE CONTROLLER ONE COLLEGE STREET WORCESTER, MA 01610-2395 gis.vgsi.com/worcesterma/Parcel.aspx?pid=53943
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Post by Chu Chu on Sept 8, 2021 16:37:23 GMT -5
Fascinating stuff, Sader1970! I had forgotten about the farm in the early days, and never knew that "Fitton was aided in his first real estate purchases for the seminary by Rejoice Newton and William Lincoln, local Protestant men who acted as his agents, buying three lots of pasture land (Meagher and Grattan 23)."
Perhaps expanding our student body in an ecumenical way is really returning to our roots!
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Post by Crucis#1 on Sept 8, 2021 17:28:51 GMT -5
Fascinating stuff, Sader1970! I had forgotten about the farm in the early days, and never knew that "Fitton was aided in his first real estate purchases for the seminary by Rejoice Newton and William Lincoln, local Protestant men who acted as his agents, buying three lots of pasture land (Meagher and Grattan 23)."
Perhaps expanding our student body in an ecumenical way is really returning to our roots! So, Fr. Fitton did the first end run at Holy across. 🤔 Wonder what he would think of the current football team? Seems as if he was encountering a common practice in so many areas of the country with covenants not to sell to a certain group. Catholics 200 years ago was of that group. Some of those covenants were just removed this year in CT and WA.
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