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Post by rgs318 on Oct 12, 2021 7:18:56 GMT -5
Well said. After all, it is hard to "exceed expectations" if we don't have a clear idea of what those expectations are.
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Post by Tom on Oct 12, 2021 7:57:06 GMT -5
I think the issue with his mom was huge. That being said, to what degree is the late bloomer a function of the coach? Isn't part of a coach's job to help players reach their potential? I think Coach Brown failed on that score I think it depends on where the baseline is. There is no question Malcolm was grades better upon graduation than where he was when he entered Mt. St. James. Part of the problem here is that Malcolm graduated a couple of years after CJ and Muscala, largely creating a (to be fair) subconscious bias. Yes, Malcolm was in the NBA at a fortunate time for the Raptors, but he was not getting serious minutes in a high number of games (especially high leverage ones). He was nowhere near CJ or Muscala, especially CJ. I don't think its fair to essentially say "Milan had his CJ McCollum but couldn't win with him, and if you cannot with with a NBA player in the PL, that's a poor mark on you." Fair enough that having Miller wasn't the same as CJ or Muscala. I'll give you it's fair we shouldn't disparage for Coach Brown for not winning the league with Miller - especially since CJ and Muscala were there for two of those years. Heck - let's even say we shouldn't disparage Coach Brown for never reaching the PL finals. At some point, I have to question only one trip to the PL semis with a 1-3 record in the quarterfinals during those four years (and also a loss the year without Miller). I will concede that it's not fair to say "if you cannot with with a NBA player in the PL, that's a poor mark on you." but I still think "If you cannot be in the hunt for a title or consistently be in the top half of the PL with a marginal NBA player, that's a poor mark on you"
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Post by hchoops on Oct 12, 2021 9:10:01 GMT -5
Malcolm was nowhere near an NBA player, even a marginal one, while at HC. He was not drafted, then spent two years with first, the Maine Red Claws, then in Europe before getting his chance with the Raptors or the Raptors G League team.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 12, 2021 9:56:58 GMT -5
Re: efg 's post : "We are getting closer in talent to those at the top of the league, now we find out about execution."
I think the jury is still out regarding the talent level of a great number of our players. Always with the caveat that I am admittedly no expert, I believe a few have proven that they are talented and there are several others that make me optimistic.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 12, 2021 11:08:38 GMT -5
I think it is fair to say that Malcolm had potential. Milan recognized that potential but to say he actualized that potential fully while at Holy Cross would not, IMO, be accurate. As others posted, there were very legitimate personal reasons why that didn't happen other than a few glimmers of what could be. Happy for him how his career blossomed. Milan could spot talent but perhaps wasn't able to develop it fully among his players.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Oct 12, 2021 11:27:44 GMT -5
I think to a certain extent Malcolm was one of those kids that did not realize how good he was (or could be). I'll never find it, but I remember someone posting an article about him in HS, where he talked about hearing the word "potential" tossed around when he was being evaluated. Now certainly you can put some blame on the staff for his development, but I think if they could have figured out how to attack a 2-3 zone (and how to deal with the Princeton offense) this discussion might not be taking place.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Oct 12, 2021 16:04:09 GMT -5
So what happens if Gates tears his ACL in November and we win 9 PL games? Failure and firing? Do you often bet on horse races with ponies who have raced one or fewer times? Or is it too much of a crap shoot to try and figure out how they will perform until you have more info/data? Let's assume that in the fall of 2019, everything was the worst of the worst. And yes, last rear was very abnormal Is it unreasonable to have expectations in year 3? 10 to 11 PL wins was an opinion poll what posters would consider minimum wins to be confident that Coach Nelson was in fact the man to lead this program going forward. If this squad goes 5-13 in conference, even with injuries, Coach Nelson won't be getting fired. However, I don't think it would be unreasonable to lose some of our optimism about the near future.. We could flip this around. Is there honestly no number that would make you question whether or not Coach Nelson is the right man for the job? In the extreme, if these guys go 0-32, would you still be optimistic for the future? And yes, things can happen that make you adjust your expectations, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't have expectations. If the team wins their first 9 PL games and then hepatitis cancels the rest of the season, I'm guessing all those 10-11 votes won't have their confidence in Coach Nelson. My boss sets out performance expectations/goals for me every year, even if things might happen beyond my control that make them unachievable. I Context and the eye test matters. If we start out 7-1, then finish 3-7, lose in the first round and are a disaster down the stretch -- am I supposed to feel good because we got to 10 PL wins? Conversely, if we start slow and are still solidifying the rotation in January, but come on strong down the stretch, and win a couple games in the PL tournament, and are carrying great momentum into the offseason and 22-23, am I still supposed to be upset because we may not have reached some arbitrary 10-win bar? Given the lack of experience on this team, the biggest thing I am looking for is for the team to be much better in February/March than it is in November/December. If that is the case, but we it's a bumpy road through the first half with more losses than expected, I am OK with that. 22-23 is the year that my expectations ramp up and I expect us to be competing for the pL championship.
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Post by efg72 on Oct 12, 2021 18:25:53 GMT -5
Understand but in 22-23 for us to believe, like in Ted Lasso, we need 24 wins or we haven’t climbed back. 18-20 wins at that point, and in the eyes of a tired old man, that won’t cut it
and that is not meant to be provocative but an honest belief
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Post by hchoops on Oct 12, 2021 20:38:37 GMT -5
20 wins and a PLT championship ??
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Post by bringbackcaro on Oct 12, 2021 21:05:27 GMT -5
Understand but in 22-23 for us to believe, like in Ted Lasso, we need 24 wins or we haven’t climbed back. 18-20 wins at that point, and in the eyes of a tired old man, that won’t cut it and that is not meant to be provocative but an honest belief 2008-09 18-14 overall 11-3 PL (#2 seed) Lost in pL Championship to a very good American team, led by Derek Mercer and Garrison Carr. Unanimous preseason favorite in the pL in 2009-10 ----------- We are coming off the worst 10+ year stretch in school history. Everyone should have taken a full reset on their expectations. If the above is where we are after next year, we should all be very happy. I want to win the pL every year just as much as the next guy. But that doesn't change the fact that HCBN inherited a sinking ship on its way to rock bottom.
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Post by efg72 on Oct 12, 2021 21:22:20 GMT -5
Few if any would say the program was headed in the right direction. However, when you make changes that creates opportunities, and Nelson has the opportunity to take steps in a direction we haven’t experienced in many years. There is nothing wrong with elevating expectations. In hoops a coach with one or two key additions can immediately change the future direction of a program.
I like a few of the kids, especially the added length and quickness on the team. It is time to see if they can begin to play together, make plays at both ends, and the staff can prepare and adjust.
While there is little to base this statement on at the moment, I believe the time to take that next step is now. Nelson is learning and growing, and we just need to find out if he can translate these growth experiences into wins.
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Post by longsuffering on Oct 12, 2021 22:29:54 GMT -5
If Nelson has a five year contract the team should be running like a well oiled machine by year five. Or not. But there should be little room for confusion about whether he deserves a second contract. If he is too good we might lose him, but that is a great problem to have.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 12, 2021 23:44:55 GMT -5
Not many schools with coaches who are 8-40 are worrying about losing him ......
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Post by longsuffering on Oct 13, 2021 1:35:43 GMT -5
Not many schools with coaches who are 8-40 are worrying about losing him ...... I've made peace with the record and the possibility we won't climb over .500 under Nelson (and the possibility we will). If there is no further mass exodus or any scandal and we show some improvement, I'm happy with BN coaching his recruits until the end of his contract and make a change then if it's warranted or if he gets hired away, or sign an extension if that's warranted. Unlike Urban Meyer, Coach Nelson appears to be all in, the players and staff are staying and the team should be one we can get to know and root for. As Abraham Lincoln said during the 1864 election, "Don't change horses midstream." How much can you really gain by disrupting the program and paying two head coaches at the same time over waiting until a coach gets a full cycle to build a team?
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Oct 13, 2021 6:06:54 GMT -5
If Nelson has a five year contract the team should be running like a well oiled machine by year five. Or not. But there should be little room for confusion about whether he deserves a second contract. If he is too good we might lose him, but that is a great problem to have.We don't have that problem. Like others have said, it would be unrealistic to expect any semblance of title contention this year. I am of the belief that the true metric this season should be marked improvement from December to March. Given our personnel issues over the last couple years, our in-season learning curve should be steeper than veteran teams. 22-23 is the year we should expect to be competing amongst the top teams in the Patriot League.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Oct 13, 2021 6:09:51 GMT -5
Understand but in 22-23 for us to believe, like in Ted Lasso, we need 24 wins or we haven’t climbed back. 18-20 wins at that point, and in the eyes of a tired old man, that won’t cut it and that is not meant to be provocative but an honest belief 2008-09 18-14 overall 11-3 PL (#2 seed) Lost in pL Championship to a very good American team, led by Derek Mercer and Garrison Carr. Unanimous preseason favorite in the pL in 2009-10 ----------- We are coming off the worst 10+ year stretch in school history. Everyone should have taken a full reset on their expectations. If the above is where we are after next year, we should all be very happy. I want to win the pL every year just as much as the next guy. But that doesn't change the fact that HCBN inherited a sinking ship on its way to rock bottom. By a landslide. Holy Cross has morphed from a basketball school to a hockey school without being any good in hockey. That tells you all you need to know about the basketball program. Remember when a crowd of 2,500 at the Hart was considered sparse? Like what you'd expect to see for a Wednesday night game against Navy in January during a light snowstorm.
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Post by hchoops on Oct 13, 2021 7:17:55 GMT -5
A hockey school ?? Where is the evidence for that ?
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Post by Tom on Oct 13, 2021 7:43:33 GMT -5
If Nelson has a five year contract the team should be running like a well oiled machine by year five. Or not. But there should be little room for confusion about whether he deserves a second contract. If he is too good we might lose him, but that is a great problem to have.We don't have that problem. Like others have said, it would be unrealistic to expect any semblance of title contention this year. I am of the belief that the true metric this season should be marked improvement from December to March. Given our personnel issues over the last couple years, our in-season learning curve should be steeper than veteran teams. 22-23 is the year we should expect to be competing amongst the top teams in the Patriot League. From a poll elsewhere, there is a sentiment that there will be concern if this team isn't marginally better than .500 in the conference. I didn't vote thinking my opinion will be based more on a subjective feel at the end of the day. The conference portion is basically the second half of the season. To get that they almost half to be progressing as the season goes on. I will be surprised and very disappointed if this squad goes 6-3 in Jan (1st half) and 3-6 in Feb (2nd golf of league schedule)
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Oct 13, 2021 9:46:08 GMT -5
A hockey school ?? Where is the evidence for that ? Attendance figures at the Hart Center. That being said, from what I saw on TV, the crowd at DCU was embarrassing given the opponents that came to town.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Oct 13, 2021 9:52:23 GMT -5
Few if any would say the program was headed in the right direction. This is just a ridiculous statement. You seem to be continuing to imagine that Brett Nelson inherited the program from Ralph Willard coming off multiple NCAA Tournament appearances. However, in reality, Nelson inherited a program that was neglected by Kearney, Milan, and Carmody, the later of which had been completely sleep walking through his tenure and left behind a totally lifeless program. I don't know how anyone can objectively say that we are not in a better place today than we were in July 2019 when Nelson arrived.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 13, 2021 10:38:12 GMT -5
Well, objectively, we were a miserable 28-36 in the two years before Brett Nelson took the reins. Now in BN's first two years we have posted a mind boggling 8-40 record. You don't see how someone might question whether we are "in a better place" today?
You've gone beyond doubling down, quadrupling down, octupling down, and sexdecupling down on your bet on Brett Nelson. I hope you are right. Coach Nelson must be buoyed by your steadfast faith in him.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 13, 2021 10:46:47 GMT -5
KY, you’re missing one fact. Instead of 3-29 or 5-12 for an 8-40 record, this season we are riding high on a 0-0 record.
That’s better, isn’t it?
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 13, 2021 11:58:12 GMT -5
...and have a 2 game win streak (ending last year with wins over Army and BU).
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Post by efg72 on Oct 13, 2021 12:01:25 GMT -5
Few if any would say the program was headed in the right direction. This is just a ridiculous statement. You seem to be continuing to imagine that Brett Nelson inherited the program from Ralph Willard coming off multiple NCAA Tournament appearances. However, in reality, Nelson inherited a program that was neglected by Kearney, Milan, and Carmody, the later of which had been completely sleep walking through his tenure and left behind a totally lifeless program. I don't know how anyone can objectively say that we are not in a better place today than we were in July 2019 when Nelson arrived. Go back to your previous post We are coming off the worst 10+ year stretch in school history. Everyone should have taken a full reset on their expectations. If the above is where we are after next year, we should all be very happy. I want to win the pL every year just as much as the next guy. But that doesn't change the fact that HCBN inherited a sinking ship on its way to rock bottom. My response was what your posted above The past decade or so has been bad- and nobody would say that during this period the program was heading in the right direction- AND I ADDDED Nelson has the opportunity to take this team and the program to a place we haven't experienced in many years-- I am optimistic this group of players can win if they can grab some offensive rebounds and DEFEND. As I said I like the length and athletic ability of this group. As a sleeper or player to watch this year I want to see how Humphrey improves-- once he learns to avoid the fouls on the perimeter I think his length and athleticism might give him an interesting role on the team.. So as the optimist, I think anything less than 500 in the PL and overall will raise questions on progress, and incremental improvement in performance and record is not going to make me think we are heading in the right direction. I guess that means Nelson has the chance to succeed or he can fall short- time will tell
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Post by longsuffering on Oct 13, 2021 12:31:33 GMT -5
Let's keep the win streak alive. What is the longest multi-season win streak in HC history? It is probably in reach as there can't be too many seasons where HC won it's last two games. Only '47 and '54 come easily to mind.
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