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Post by sader1970 on Nov 7, 2021 15:15:43 GMT -5
It would appear that Holy Cross athletics is big on participation trophies. I just went through the athletics website to see how we've done in various sports and, the bottom line is, not good at all. I didn't bother with sports like track & field where there are multiple teams competing, or swimming and diving or track but went with the sports where its one team against another. An asterisk means the season is over. Parenthesis is record within the conference, bold is winning record:
Men: Baseball: 10-20 (9-15) * Football: 7-2 (4-0) Hockey: 1-7-1 (1-2-1) LAX: 2-4 (1-3) * Soccer: 8-8-3 (5-3-1) * Tennis: 1-4 (010) * Basketball: TBD
Women: Field Hockey: 6-10 (1-5) * Hockey: 1-10 (0-7) LAX: 2-4 (1-3) * Soccer: 1-15-1 (0-8-1) * Softball: 8-20 (4-16) * Tennis: 5-2 (0-0) * Volleyball: 2-24 (1-14) Basketball: TBD
Wonder when and if the Luth complex might translate into better recruits and better results because for the most part, these numbers are (or should be) embarrassing.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Nov 7, 2021 16:02:30 GMT -5
Women’s tennis has played one D1 school (Sacred Heart) and was bageled (lost all seven matches).
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Post by gks on Nov 7, 2021 16:45:46 GMT -5
It would appear that Holy Cross athletics is big on participation trophies. I just went through the athletics website to see how we've done in various sports and, the bottom line is, not good at all. I didn't bother with sports like track & field where there are multiple teams competing, or swimming and diving or track but went with the sports where its one team against another. An asterisk means the season is over. Parenthesis is record within the conference, bold is winning record: Men:Baseball: 10-20 (9-15) * Football: 7-2 (4-0)Hockey: 1-7-1 (1-2-1) LAX: 2-4 (1-3) * Soccer: 8-8-3 (5-3-1) * Tennis: 1-4 (010) * Basketball: TBD Women:Field Hockey: 6-10 (1-5) * Hockey: 1-10 (0-7) LAX: 2-4 (1-3) * Soccer: 1-15-1 (0-8-1) * Softball: 8-20 (4-16) * Tennis: 5-2 (0-0) *Volleyball: 2-24 (1-14) Basketball: TBD Wonder when and if the Luth complex might translate into better recruits and better results because for the most part, these numbers are (or should be) embarrassing. Luth was built for football and the results are there.
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 7, 2021 17:05:21 GMT -5
Disagree. You have the Blaney gym and the weight and training areas are not just for football. Believe they play volleyball on the Blaney gym. Believe LAX uses the indoor football field for practice. Believe almost all sports have locker rooms in the Luth. Luth is definitely not just for football.
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Post by purplehaze on Nov 7, 2021 18:20:55 GMT -5
We can add: M S&D - got blown out in their dual meets so far and could not even win the City Championship W S&D - better results and won the City Championship Men’s X-C - poor season finished next to last in PL and finished behind many D2 and D3 schools during multi team races Women’s X-C - better - finished middle of the pack in PL M &W golf - both teams showing improvement but still not close to winning anything - Some hope here
You almost have to try to be this bad across the board - ADMB issued his long term plan last year emphasizing competitive excellence - the man was in denial which bordered on dishonesty
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Post by hcbball on Nov 7, 2021 21:37:07 GMT -5
Very discouraging. It would help if there were evidence of teams trending upwards. Men’s soccer had a nice season with a talented freshman. Will they be able to build upon that though?
I follow baseball very closely. What is most discouraging is there were some 3,000 players on the transfer portal this past year. All HC did was pick up a D 3 player who didn’t get a lot of playing time at his former school. I realize that there are no scholarships and the tuition is as high as they come, but I find it hard to believe they couldn’t tap into that pool of players to improve the roster.
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Post by bfoley82 on Nov 7, 2021 23:31:41 GMT -5
Very discouraging. It would help if there were evidence of teams trending upwards. Men’s soccer had a nice season with a talented freshman. Will they be able to build upon that though? I follow baseball very closely. What is most discouraging is there were some 3,000 players on the transfer portal this past year. All HC did was pick up a D 3 player who didn’t get a lot of playing time at his former school. I realize that there are no scholarships and the tuition is as high as they come, but I find it hard to believe they couldn’t tap into that pool of players to improve the roster. The question with mens soccer is do they stay at HC? Soccer coaches are known to poach players. See UNH
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 9, 2021 16:55:41 GMT -5
We can add: M S&D - got blown out in their dual meets so far and could not even win the City Championship W S&D - better results and won the City Championship Men’s X-C - poor season finished next to last in PL and finished behind many D2 and D3 schools during multi team races Women’s X-C - better - finished middle of the pack in PL M &W golf - both teams showing improvement but still not close to winning anything - Some hope here You almost have to try to be this bad across the board - ADMB issued his long term plan last year emphasizing competitive excellence - the man was in denial which bordered on dishonesty Do women's teams perform better because they are recipients of 60 scholarships to match FB under title IX, and/or do they have an edge over men's teams because women outnumber men in the student body? It doesn't seem possible 60 scholarships are spread among the women's minor sports (M&W BB, Hockey already have scholarships) so there must be a formula but I don't know it.
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 9, 2021 17:10:19 GMT -5
MGolf eighth of eight in PL tournament, WGolf sixth of six in PL tournament.
All these results are somewhat papered over (but shouldn't be) by the rare transcendent coach in a major sport. Rooting for Nelson, Riga and Magarity to "transcend"🙂
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Post by bison137 on Nov 9, 2021 17:21:39 GMT -5
I doubt HC gives 60 women's scholarships in Olympic sports, but I imagine they give enough so as not to be in a major Title IX violation. Scholarships for women's soccer, field hockey, T&F, volleyball, rowing and softball might get them to at least 50.
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 9, 2021 17:52:34 GMT -5
I doubt HC gives 60 women's scholarships in Olympic sports, but I imagine they give enough so as not to be in a major Title IX violation. Scholarships for women's soccer, field hockey, T&F, volleyball, rowing and softball might get them to at least 50. I get the sense a decent percentage of FB scholarships for women is acceptable. That puts HC at a disadvantage in men's minor sports against non-football schools like Boston University, UVM, NU, etc. Those schools can match M&W minor sports Scholarships fairly evenly where as HC has to practically starve it's men's minor sports because sixty schollies are going to men in football.
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Post by purplehaze on Nov 9, 2021 18:00:31 GMT -5
That is correct but the problem so many of us have is that we are not doing well against the other 'football' PL schools who have the manage the schollie money the same way we do. Something is not working
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 9, 2021 18:52:20 GMT -5
We need a red carpet for quality student athletes but the admissions criteria prevents that. There's a red carpet so to speak for high academic achievers but the burden is on the non scholarship athlete to get accepted, pay, keep up academically and then play a D-1 sport. That's how it is in D-3, but we compete in D-1.
Maybe the Olympic sports programs have a "red carpet" of sorts for recruiting talented athletes but it isn't evident in the results.
I have no proof but think Amherst, Williams, etc. have their own version of a red carpet for athlete's admission which is why they win so often, but there could be many other factors.
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bpob55
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 114
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Post by bpob55 on Nov 9, 2021 20:01:10 GMT -5
We can add: M S&D - got blown out in their dual meets so far and could not even win the City Championship W S&D - better results and won the City Championship Men’s X-C - poor season finished next to last in PL and finished behind many D2 and D3 schools during multi team races Women’s X-C - better - finished middle of the pack in PL M &W golf - both teams showing improvement but still not close to winning anything - Some hope here You almost have to try to be this bad across the board - ADMB issued his long term plan last year emphasizing competitive excellence - the man was in denial which bordered on dishonesty Do women's teams perform better because they are recipients of 60 scholarships to match FB under title IX, and/or do they have an edge over men's teams because women outnumber men in the student body? It doesn't seem possible 60 scholarships are spread among the women's minor sports (M&W BB, Hockey already have scholarships) so there must be a formula but I don't know it. Many of the women's teams have scholarships while their men's counterparts do not to compensate for football. Numerous men's teams have zero scholarship money and no priority access to merit aid unlike many of our pier institutions. This sets them back greatly.
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bpob55
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 114
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Post by bpob55 on Nov 9, 2021 20:04:27 GMT -5
We need a red carpet for quality student athletes but the admissions criteria prevents that. There's a red carpet so to speak for high academic achievers but the burden is on the non scholarship athlete to get accepted, pay, keep up academically and then play a D-1 sport. That's how it is in D-3, but we compete in D-1. Maybe the Olympic sports programs have a "red carpet" of sorts for recruiting talented athletes but it isn't evident in the results. I have no proof but think Amherst, Williams, etc. have their own version of a red carpet for athlete's admission which is why they win so often, but there could be many other factors. Many other schools have a large gap between requirements for athletes and general students. This does not exist for minor sports at HC. Additionally minor sports at HC are not given priority access to merit aid for students not on athletic scholarships which sets us behind many pier institutions that have both those resources available to them.
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Post by Ignutz on Nov 9, 2021 21:21:33 GMT -5
It would appear that Holy Cross athletics is big on participation trophies. I just went through the athletics website to see how we've done in various sports and, the bottom line is, not good at all. I didn't bother with sports like track & field where there are multiple teams competing, or swimming and diving or track but went with the sports where its one team against another. An asterisk means the season is over. Parenthesis is record within the conference, bold is winning record: Men:Baseball: 10-20 (9-15) * Football: 7-2 (4-0)Hockey: 1-7-1 (1-2-1) LAX: 2-4 (1-3) * Soccer: 8-8-3 (5-3-1) * Tennis: 1-4 (010) * Basketball: TBD Women:Field Hockey: 6-10 (1-5) * Hockey: 1-10 (0-7) LAX: 2-4 (1-3) * Soccer: 1-15-1 (0-8-1) * Softball: 8-20 (4-16) * Tennis: 5-2 (0-0) *Volleyball: 2-24 (1-14) Basketball: TBD Wonder when and if the Luth complex might translate into better recruits and better results because for the most part, these numbers are (or should be) embarrassing. And if my memory is correct, Men’s Soccer closed the season at 0-5-1 before bowing out in the first round (aka Quarterfinals) of the PL tournament.
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Post by bison137 on Nov 9, 2021 23:10:32 GMT -5
We need a red carpet for quality student athletes but the admissions criteria prevents that. There's a red carpet so to speak for high academic achievers but the burden is on the non scholarship athlete to get accepted, pay, keep up academically and then play a D-1 sport. That's how it is in D-3, but we compete in D-1. Maybe the Olympic sports programs have a "red carpet" of sorts for recruiting talented athletes but it isn't evident in the results. I have no proof but think Amherst, Williams, etc. have their own version of a red carpet for athlete's admission which is why they win so often, but there could be many other factors. Many other schools have a large gap between requirements for athletes and general students. This does not exist for minor sports at HC. Additionally minor sports at HC are not given priority access to merit aid for students not on athletic scholarships which sets us behind many pier institutions that have both those resources available to them. With the patriot leagues academic index for athletes, the gap between them and regular students cannot be too large.
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bpob55
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 114
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Post by bpob55 on Nov 10, 2021 7:47:41 GMT -5
Many other schools have a large gap between requirements for athletes and general students. This does not exist for minor sports at HC. Additionally minor sports at HC are not given priority access to merit aid for students not on athletic scholarships which sets us behind many pier institutions that have both those resources available to them. With the patriot leagues academic index for athletes, the gap between them and regular students cannot be too large. I am also including schools like Fairfield and Providence when saying this.
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Post by alum on Nov 10, 2021 10:44:59 GMT -5
Many other schools have a large gap between requirements for athletes and general students. This does not exist for minor sports at HC. Additionally minor sports at HC are not given priority access to merit aid for students not on athletic scholarships which sets us behind many pier institutions that have both those resources available to them. With the patriot leagues academic index for athletes, the gap between them and regular students cannot be too large. Bison--Does Bucknell have scholarships for men's track, if you know?
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Post by coacht on Nov 10, 2021 11:15:51 GMT -5
It's actually harder. My understanding from two coaches ago is if a "minor sport" coach is recruiting an athlete and not giving them any athletic money (e.g. relying on need or merit-based aid to make it work), the recruit goes into the traditional admission process and has to get in without any sort of nod to the recruit as an athlete. No "slots," no Athletic Referral Form, just a "good luck" and hope I see you in the fall. With 2.2 scholarships to work with, even cut very thinly, that's a lot of recruits that have to compete with the larger pool of applicants. Even with a 60% success rate in the Early Decision windows, you need to fill that pipeline with high-academic talent to be sure you have a team. Tack on the observation that HC doesn't stack awards (you get the highest of, not the sum of need, merit and athletic) with the 'no guarantee' process, and it's a tough sell.
I would love to be told this is no longer the case. Then again, I'd love to hear that they're doubling the scholarship count across the board too. Not holding my breath.
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Post by Xmassader on Nov 10, 2021 11:48:07 GMT -5
coacht Thank you for your comments on admissions/recruiting. Do you have a sense TPTB (admissions director, financial aid office, AD, administration, Trustees) are aware of what you describe and, if so, whether they’ve made a coordinated effort to address the issues? Perhaps the “athletic plan” distributed by FADMB earlier this year is part of that coordinated effort. Are you aware of whether any action has been taken, particularly with respect to the non-revenue sports, to effectuate the plan?
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Post by purplehaze on Nov 10, 2021 11:51:57 GMT -5
There you have the biggest example of why the Ivies succeed so much in the minor sports - they have a coordinated effort to recruit and fill their olympic sport rosters with high quality athletes.
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Post by bison137 on Nov 10, 2021 11:53:21 GMT -5
With the patriot leagues academic index for athletes, the gap between them and regular students cannot be too large. Bison--Does Bucknell have scholarships for men's track, if you know? None for men's track. They do have a few for the women. For the men, there is need-based aid of course, and the ability to sometimes get an earlier preliminary decision from Admissions for some recruits. Also an occasional academic scholarship (not close to a full ride) - which has mandatory GPA/SAT standards for all recipients.
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Post by bison137 on Nov 10, 2021 11:56:23 GMT -5
It's actually harder. My understanding from two coaches ago is if a "minor sport" coach is recruiting an athlete and not giving them any athletic money (e.g. relying on need or merit-based aid to make it work), the recruit goes into the traditional admission process and has to get in without any sort of nod to the recruit as an athlete. No "slots," no Athletic Referral Form, just a "good luck" and hope I see you in the fall. With 2.2 scholarships to work with, even cut very thinly, that's a lot of recruits that have to compete with the larger pool of applicants. Even with a 60% success rate in the Early Decision windows, you need to fill that pipeline with high-academic talent to be sure you have a team. Tack on the observation that HC doesn't stack awards (you get the highest of, not the sum of need, merit and athletic) with the 'no guarantee' process, and it's a tough sell. I would love to be told this is no longer the case. Then again, I'd love to hear that they're doubling the scholarship count across the board too. Not holding my breath. I assume you are talking about golf and tennis. It is clear that in sports like soccer, lacrosse and others that the recruit gets a preliminary decision from Admissions. Otherwise you wouldn't see dozens of HC recruits every year stating that they are committed to HC six months or a year or more prior to the earliest normal admissions decision date.
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Post by alum on Nov 10, 2021 12:05:02 GMT -5
Bison--Does Bucknell have scholarships for men's track, if you know? None for men's track. They do have a few for the women. For the men, there is need-based aid of course, and the ability to sometimes get an earlier preliminary decision from Admissions for some recruits. Also an occasional academic scholarship (not close to a full ride) - which has mandatory GPA/SAT standards for all recipients. Then they do pretty well. They are regularly third in the league, behind only the service academies. I am impressed.
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