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Post by rgs318 on Nov 15, 2021 8:32:41 GMT -5
I still have a letter I received from Father Hart in July of 1968. It discussed his concerns about being able to get to Long Island to preside at our wedding. In it was this quote: "I am wondering if Dr. McBrian will resume his campaign against varsity sports." Had not known of such a "campaign" against varsity sports back then. Do any of you know what (if anything) came of it? Was that part of the reason hy HC did not want to join the Big East? Just wondering. (Corrected my typo. Dr. McBrian was on the faculty at that time IIRC)
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Nov 15, 2021 8:37:03 GMT -5
Who is CDr McBrian?
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Post by lou on Nov 15, 2021 8:49:33 GMT -5
Assume he's referring to Vincent McBrien, head of the Math Dept. So either Fr Hart misspelled it or RGS did. One of my favorite professors, I was a Math major and played baseball, and I know Dr McBrien was a big fan
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Post by rgs318 on Nov 15, 2021 9:53:01 GMT -5
That one sentence stands alone in the letter. Fr Hart, BTW, had beautiful handwriting (script with fountain pen). He also proofread whatever he wrote, I am sure. I believe he would not have made such a statement unless there was something behind it.
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 15, 2021 10:02:16 GMT -5
So, Rob, am I missing something? You had this letter since 1968 and you are questioning it now?
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Post by breezy on Nov 15, 2021 10:41:34 GMT -5
I have a very vivid memory of Dr. McBrien, who indeed was the head of the Mathematics department when I arrived at Holy Cross in September 1965. He is an indispensable part of a story I like to tell on appropriate occasions (mainly as a tribute to one of my high school math teachers; see following paragraph). I also recall him writing at some point in some publication (date and place not definitive in my memory) saying something to the effect that "Holy Cross should not give a damn" about some athletic event (perhaps even the NCAAs or the NIT) or perhaps even athletics in general.
I had relatively good math scores on the standardized tests used for college admissions (both SAT and achievement tests). Upon my arrival on campus, I went to see Dr. McBrien to see if I could be admitted to an advanced math seminar for freshmen even though I was a history major. He was reluctant, based on my much more pedestrian verbal SAT results, but eventually I persuaded him to let me into the seminar. (In 9th grade, I had an algebra teacher who was in his first teaching position after a previous career outside of education. In 10th grade -- and again in 11th grade -- I had an excellent math teacher for geometry and trigonometry. In the early weeks of 10th grade, he recognized that the students in his class did not have adequate knowledge of algebra, so he put geometry on hold and spent several weeks giving the class an education in algebra. From there, he went on over the next two years to give us an intense education in geometry and trigonometry. I have no doubt it was his teaching that enabled me to score in the 700s in the Math SAT and Achievement test.)
After Dr. McBrien reluctantly let me enter the advanced math seminar for freshmen, I was amazed to find that everything discussed in that seminar during September, October and November were topics that my high school math teacher had covered in high school. Only in the last two weeks of the seminar was the subject matter new to me. At the end of the seminar, Dr. McBrien tried to convince me to switch to a math major; when I did not do so, he became visibly angry with me. I never took another math class during my years at Holy Cross.
I do not write this to denigrate Dr. McBrien. He was an excellent member of the faculty with a perspective on academics that, in his view, should take precedence over any commitment to athletics. My experience with him was regrettable but he was a man of principle.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Nov 15, 2021 11:17:59 GMT -5
I don't think they had a faculty senate back in those days, so I suspect that McBrien would carry little weight on matters such as whether HC should have an athletics program. However, I could see McBrien complaining about athletes missing classes because they were on a trip -- did they not take trains in that era -- and musing on what was more important to HC, academics or athletics?
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Post by hchoops on Nov 15, 2021 11:37:04 GMT -5
Dr.McBrien was an influential voice among faculty critics of big time HC sports. He took many public stands on this position. I do not recall specifically if he spoke out about the Big East, but it certainly would have been consistent with his view.
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Post by hchoops on Nov 15, 2021 11:38:35 GMT -5
So, Rob, am I missing something? You had this letter since 1968 and you are questioning it now? As the HCM wrote, Dr. McBrien recently died.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Nov 15, 2021 11:57:43 GMT -5
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Post by purple1 on Nov 15, 2021 11:58:08 GMT -5
He had nothing to do with a Big East decision. He was the faculty mouthpiece against big time, scholarship sports at Holy Cross. His influence may have led us to the Yankee Conference affiliation away from the East Indies position or perception at the time. Many articles in the T&G and on campus publications aired his anti sports view.
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Post by rgs318 on Nov 15, 2021 12:03:18 GMT -5
Thanks for that. I don't remember seeing any if that back in the day....or I saw it and just chose not to believe it.
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Post by mm67 on Nov 15, 2021 12:48:38 GMT -5
At HC I had heard that V.O.MCBrien objected to the emphasis on sports at that time. He thought HC should compete at a lower level. Evidently, he believedAmherst athletics was the paradigm for HC. In Dorm "bull sessions" many of us expressed anger & annoyance with Dr. McBrien's position. He was loudly criticized and derided by many students . We believed Dr. McBrien was wrong. TBT many years later I became more sympathetic to his views.
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 15, 2021 13:23:08 GMT -5
If HC was opening today, D-3 would be logical. But what type of Crusader rides his horse backwards after qualifying for a D-1 national tournament in FB three years in a row? Let's bring the other sports up to FB's level.
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 15, 2021 13:53:59 GMT -5
Uh, first they came for our horse. Then they came for our sword. Then they came and took our whole Crusader. They left us with an empty name and a non-descript shield. Iggy, we hardly knew ye. (absolutely did hate that name though).
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Post by timholycross on Nov 15, 2021 15:14:27 GMT -5
IIRC Dr. McBrien favored HC aligning with schools of the same size that would not have agreed to align with us. Starts with a "N" and ends with a "C". Nothing bad about that, but it wasn't going to happen.
He was a real stubborn SOB when it came to one basketball player. Flunked him or close to it; kid would have been ineligible except that someone (Brooks or someone else pretty high up) stepped in. And, the funny thing is the guy went on to a career that certainly would be considered numbers-oriented.
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Post by hc87 on Nov 15, 2021 16:34:45 GMT -5
Fr Hart consistently wrote to my Dad who left HC as a sophomore to join the Army in 1947 (goofing around too much...he was very young when he entered HC in June of 1945, just turned 17...HC had Summah session then). He often said those letters were vital in keeping his spirits up and getting him back to HC where he went on to buckle down and ultimately get into medical school from HC.
Amazing the seemingly small gestures made back then by guys like Fr Hart have had on our family around 75 years later. I had the pleasure of knowing Fr Hart in the last years of his life through helping to run a lot of the intramurals leagues then. Quite a guy obviously.
I still haven't read Fr K's book on the history of HC, mea culpa...it sounds like there was quite a lot of soul-searching (no pun intended) with HC on a variety of issues at HC then: coeducation, diversity, role of athlectics etc....very interesting time....glad there are a fair amount of guys on the board here who can (and have) talk about those days.
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 15, 2021 16:40:05 GMT -5
IIRC Dr. McBrien favored HC aligning with schools of the same size that would not have agreed to align with us. Starts with a "N" and ends with a "C". Nothing bad about that, but it wasn't going to happen. He was a real stubborn SOB when it came to one basketball player. Flunked him or close to it; kid would have been ineligible except that someone (Brooks or someone else pretty high up) stepped in. And, the funny thing is the guy went on to a career that certainly would be considered numbers-oriented. The only word beginning with N and ending with C that I can come up with is Nipmuc. One more hint please. Oh, never mind. I just guessed NESCAC and assume that is correct. The good professor placed no value on and felt no pride in HC's D-1 athletic history unlike most of us, but maybe he was also the type that liked to "fight against the machine," for the sake of having a battle to wage. Some people need a good fight over something to truly feel alive.
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Post by hc87 on Nov 15, 2021 17:04:32 GMT -5
IIRC Dr. McBrien favored HC aligning with schools of the same size that would not have agreed to align with us. Starts with a "N" and ends with a "C". Nothing bad about that, but it wasn't going to happen. He was a real stubborn SOB when it came to one basketball player. Flunked him or close to it; kid would have been ineligible except that someone (Brooks or someone else pretty high up) stepped in. And, the funny thing is the guy went on to a career that certainly would be considered numbers-oriented. The only word beginning with N and ending with C that I can come up with is Nipmuc. One more hint please. NESCAC (Williams, Amherst et al) I believe
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 15, 2021 17:15:08 GMT -5
The only word beginning with N and ending with C that I can come up with is Nipmuc. One more hint please. NESCAC (Williams, Amherst et al) I believe Just added that to my post above when the five watt bulb in my head flickered.🙂
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Post by efg72 on Nov 15, 2021 18:45:21 GMT -5
Fr Hart consistently wrote to my Dad who left HC as a sophomore to join the Army in 1947 (goofing around too much...he was very young when he entered HC in June of 1945, just turned 17...HC had Summah session then). He often said those letters were vital in keeping his spirits up and getting him back to HC where he went on to buckle down and ultimately get into medical school from HC. Amazing the seemingly small gestures made back then by guys like Fr Hart have had on our family around 75 years later. I had the pleasure of knowing Fr Hart in the last years of his life through helping to run a lot of the intramurals leagues then. Quite a guy obviously. I still haven't read Fr K's book on the history of HC, mea culpa...it sounds like there was quite a lot of soul-searching (no pun intended) with HC on a variety of issues at HC then: coeducation, diversity, role of athlectics etc....very interesting time....glad there are a fair amount of guys on the board here who can (and have) talk about those days. 87 That is why Father Hart is so beloved 50 years later a special gift to Holy Cross, athletics, and man
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Post by Chu Chu on Nov 16, 2021 12:32:00 GMT -5
I clearly remember Dr. McBrien advocating for athletics on a par with other small liberal art colleges, in part, in order to improve the status of our academic reputation.
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Post by thecrossisback on Nov 16, 2021 12:36:57 GMT -5
Father Hart Attachments:
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 16, 2021 18:56:12 GMT -5
I clearly remember Dr. McBrien advocating for athletics on a par with other small liberal art colleges, in part, in order to improve the status of our academic reputation. If HC had gone D-3 we likely would be playing in what is today the NEWMAC with Clark and WPI. A good league probably on par academically with the Patriot League. But no other league member would have HC's athletic tradition with BC in football, the NIT and NCAA in BB, etc. Much of that has disipated over the decades (except on Crossports) but Chesney has reignited the embers and a new era of D-1 athletic success has begun.
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Post by rgs318 on Nov 16, 2021 18:58:42 GMT -5
HC has total control of the boards.
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