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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Dec 10, 2021 21:38:06 GMT -5
^
? Because some ferkakta computer algorithm says so? Eyeball test says top to bottom the league was significantly better 2000-2010 than in the past 10 yrs.
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Post by HC92 on Dec 10, 2021 22:08:01 GMT -5
Does the head coach at HC recruit to the same league, under the same restrictions as the nine other coaches? The four coaches we have hired since Ralph left have all stunk. That’s the problem. End. Patriot League basketball has sucked for the past ten years minus some rare comets streaking across the sky. The talent in the league is awful. The reputation of the league is awful. But IMO it goes beyond that. And yet we’ve somehow managed to become the worst program in that awful league.
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Post by timholycross on Dec 10, 2021 22:13:26 GMT -5
^ ? Because some ferkakta computer algorithm says so? Eyeball test says top to bottom the league was significantly better 2000-2010 than in the past 10 yrs. How much were any of us paying attention to the bottom when we were on the top? Adding two teams definitely a factor either way. I'd say BU helped the league's standing, Loyola did not. The other 8 teams, I'd say on the average, what they are right now compared to what they were 10 or so years ago, I can only give you opinions on four of them HC- worse (except the Kearney year) Bucknell- worse AU- worse Colgate- much better That leaves LU, LC, Army and Navy for the rest of you to opine.
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Post by hceconhist on Dec 10, 2021 23:09:06 GMT -5
^ ? Because some ferkakta computer algorithm says so? Eyeball test says top to bottom the league was significantly better 2000-2010 than in the past 10 yrs. How much were any of us paying attention to the bottom when we were on the top? Adding two teams definitely a factor either way. I'd say BU helped the league's standing, Loyola did not. The other 8 teams, I'd say on the average, what they are right now compared to what they were 10 or so years ago, I can only give you opinions on four of them HC- worse (except the Kearney year) Bucknell- worse AU- worse Colgate- much better That leaves LU, LC, Army and Navy for the rest of you to opine. I'd argue we're worse than the Kearney year. That year was especially awful when you take into account the pre-season expectations. That said, 6 of our 9 PL losses were by single digits. The frustration in that year, to put it mildly, came from the fact that everyone knew we should've been winning those games. Now...
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Post by WCHC Sports on Dec 10, 2021 23:32:06 GMT -5
Guys, did you see? I wasn’t saying how man All-Americans we had. I’m saying All Patriot-League first team award winners. That means whether or not the league was great or sucked, what did Holy Cross contribute to it. Among our peers we have failed, are failing, and will fail if nothing changes.
Great prior points that our disparaged league-mates recruit under largely the same circumstances. If they can do it—even just to the “lowly” PL standards— why can we not?
It doesn’t matter if Red Auerbach had these players… they ain’t winning.
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Post by Tom on Dec 10, 2021 23:43:24 GMT -5
Guys, did you see? I wasn’t saying how man All-Americans we had. I’m saying All Patriot-League first team award winners. That means whether or not the league was great or sucked, what did Holy Cross contribute to it. Among our peers we have failed, are failing, and will fail if nothing changes. Great prior points that our disparaged league-mates recruit under largely the same circumstances. If they can do it—even just to the “lowly” PL standards— why can we not? It doesn’t matter if Red Auerbach had these players… they ain’t winning. Jimmys and Joes are very important, but you still have to put those players in a position to succeed
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Post by bfoley82 on Dec 11, 2021 0:39:32 GMT -5
Remember when we hated watching the Carmody teams. I just looked at the 2016-17 team (best PL regular season team he coached) on Sports Reference. www.sports-reference.com/cbb/seasons/2017-advanced-school-stats.htmlHC was fourth in the nation in "Assist Percentage" and led the nation in "Steal Percentage." On the other hand, we were third from the slowest in Pace which is possessions per 40 minutes and in the bottom 20% in Offensive Rating (points per 100 possessions) and within a few of the bottom in Offensive Rebounding percentage. We were 11th in fewest points allowed. Carmody got his players ready to play in a particular way and, based upon the stats, they did it in games. Can we say the same about BN? Carmody is like a football coach running a triple option wishbone offense. Players can only play that type of system and when they try to play any other way they struggle. Nelson took over a very tough position.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 11, 2021 1:08:26 GMT -5
Here is where Ken Pomeroy ranked the Patriot League from 2002 (earliest year available) to this year
To save annoying typing, note that I am listing the year when the season ended, e.g. 2017-2018 is listed as 18
02= 26th place among all D-1 conferences 03= 26 04= 26 05= 25 06= 27 07= 21 08= 21 09= 27 10= 27
11= 23 12= 23 13= 17 14= 21 15= 23 16= 27 17= 23 18= 27 19= 21 20= 23 21= 24 22= 27
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Dec 11, 2021 4:06:44 GMT -5
Remember when we hated watching the Carmody teams. I just looked at the 2016-17 team (best PL regular season team he coached) on Sports Reference. www.sports-reference.com/cbb/seasons/2017-advanced-school-stats.htmlHC was fourth in the nation in "Assist Percentage" and led the nation in "Steal Percentage." On the other hand, we were third from the slowest in Pace which is possessions per 40 minutes and in the bottom 20% in Offensive Rating (points per 100 possessions) and within a few of the bottom in Offensive Rebounding percentage. We were 11th in fewest points allowed. Carmody got his players ready to play in a particular way and, based upon the stats, they did it in games. Can we say the same about BN? Carmody is like a football coach running a triple option wishbone offense. Players can only play that type of system and when they try to play any other way they struggle. Nelson took over a very tough position. Yeah, Austin Butler and Jacob Grandison are really struggling.
I agree the style was totally different, but with some tweaks to coaching philosophy they could have stayed and been competitive. Water under the bridge now.
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Post by bfoley82 on Dec 11, 2021 10:35:07 GMT -5
Carmody is like a football coach running a triple option wishbone offense. Players can only play that type of system and when they try to play any other way they struggle. Nelson took over a very tough position. Yeah, Austin Butler and Jacob Grandison are really struggling.
I agree the style was totally different, but with some tweaks to coaching philosophy they could have stayed and been competitive. Water under the bridge now.
Did I ever see a thread on Grandison being on the Finland National Team? I just saw that he played on it recently
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 11, 2021 11:06:07 GMT -5
Carmody didn't recruit any D-1 players but Faw, Butler, Green and Grandson are all contributing on D-1 teams.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 11, 2021 11:24:35 GMT -5
^ ? Because some ferkakta computer algorithm says so? Eyeball test says top to bottom the league was significantly better 2000-2010 than in the past 10 yrs. Thats incorrect. Holy Cross and American were better. Bucknell for most part has remained just as good, maybe they were slightly better overall during the first decade. But do you remember how bad Army, Navy, Colgate and Lafayette were back then? Lehigh definitely was stronger in the 2010's. The league was definitely much deeper from 2010-2020 then it was the decade prior. And arguably not THAT much of a drop off at the very top. That's a fact. And then of course we added BU and Loyola in 2010. LU stinks but BU has been an above average PL program added to the mix.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 11, 2021 12:40:11 GMT -5
To address the issue of whether there has been "a drop off at the very top", I've added the ranking of the top PL team to the prior list of PL Conference rank. I also recapped with median ranks for the two long periods in question
02= 26th place among all D-1 conferences/Top Team = HC #162 03= 26/ HC #86 04= 26/ HC #171 05= 25/HC #66 06= 27/Bucknell #58 07= 21/HC #93 08= 21/HC #150 09= 27/AU #112 10= 27/Lehigh #186
2002-2010 PL Median Rank=26 Top Team Median= #112
11= 23/Bucknell #96 12= 23/Lehigh #79 13= 17/Bucknell #58 14= 21/AU #120 15= 23/Colgate #180 16= 27/Bucknell #172 17= 23/Bucknell #76 18= 27/Bucknell #97 19= 21/Colgate #126 20= 23/Colgate #118 21= 24/Colgate #89 22= 27/Colgate #63
2011-2022 PL Median Rank=23 Top Team Median= #96.5
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Post by bison137 on Dec 11, 2021 13:48:50 GMT -5
One thing to keep in mind is that a number of schools did not have scholarships for a significant part of the first decade. Bucknell only became all-scholarship in 2007. Colgate didn’t have an all-scholarship team until 2008, and Lafayette was not all scholarships until about 2012. That made a difference. Also army for much of that decade was just awful, during most of Jim Crews’ regime.
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Post by hceconhist on Dec 11, 2021 14:46:07 GMT -5
^Yes, and I'm sure the post 9/11 environment did not help Army and Navy recruiting.
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Post by hc89 on Dec 11, 2021 15:41:53 GMT -5
In ‘18-19 non-league action, we had wins over Sacred Heart, Stony Brook, Siena (twice), Albany, UMASS, Fairleigh Dickinson and Iona. Any suggestion that we are in a better position now than then, is INSANE in my opinion. Bill Carmody was a very good basketball coach and he recruited some very good basketball players. Did he get us everything we wanted? Of course not. Were there some bumps in the road? Of course. Are we anywhere close to being better off now than then? NO WAY.
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Post by nhteamer on Dec 11, 2021 15:50:20 GMT -5
This is worthy of a new thread? YUP
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Post by Tom on Dec 11, 2021 22:07:34 GMT -5
Carmody didn't recruit any D-1 players but Faw, Butler, Green and Grandson are all contributing on D-1 teams. If I wanted to beat this point into the ground, I might mention that Marlon Hargis is also contributing on a D-I team this year. Or that, although sitting this season for transfer, Carmody recruits Lowder and Pridgen contributed on D-I teams last year
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 11, 2021 22:47:48 GMT -5
Carmody didn't recruit any D-1 players but Faw, Butler, Green and Grandson are all contributing on D-1 teams. If I wanted to beat this point into the ground, I might mention that Marlon Hargis is also contributing on a D-I team this year. Or that, although sitting this season for transfer, Carmody recruits Lowder and Pridgen contributed on D-I teams last year Bob Lobel is muttering in his sleep.
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Post by cmo on Dec 12, 2021 7:21:59 GMT -5
I we had to defend this team’s / player’s backdoor cut, we’d be in trouble.
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Post by bigfan on Dec 12, 2021 7:34:29 GMT -5
Top recruits are not coming to the Patriot League. If one does come he quickly leaves and goes to a better program. This years team could be the worst HC basketball team ever. Hopefully the new AD will see the problem. We need better athletes, we can't shoot, rebound or play defense.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 12, 2021 7:42:00 GMT -5
Well, other than that, we have top-shelf players, right?
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 12, 2021 7:47:26 GMT -5
Carmody didn't recruit any D-1 players but Faw, Butler, Green and Grandson are all contributing on D-1 teams. If I wanted to beat this point into the ground, I might mention that Marlon Hargis is also contributing on a D-I team this year. Or that, although sitting this season for transfer, Carmody recruits Lowder and Pridgen contributed on D-I teams last year They're both transferring AGAIN?
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Post by WorcesterGray on Dec 12, 2021 8:27:46 GMT -5
Lowder is not sitting out this year. After a horrible year at E. Michigan, he committed to JUCO Angelina College in Texas during the summer - then he de-committed, and decided to go to Lansing Community College in Michigan, where he's taking lots of shots and scoring lots of points.
After this season, he will transfer again.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Dec 12, 2021 8:37:55 GMT -5
Top recruits are not coming to the Patriot League. If one does come he quickly leaves and goes to a better program. This years team could be the worst HC basketball team ever. Hopefully the new AD will see the problem. We need better athletes, we can't shoot, rebound or play defense.
You keep confusing Holy Cross incompetence with membership in the Patriot League. Just this year:
Navy beats Virginia Lafayette beats Rutgers (who beats Purdue) Colgate beats Syracuse
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