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Post by hcpride on Dec 14, 2021 4:42:42 GMT -5
Quite a sports story going on now at UPenn: She (Lia Thomas) set a new pool and meet record in the 500-yard freestyle, according to UPenn. The Austin, Texas, native kept the same momentum in the finals and swam over 12 seconds faster, coming in first at 4:34.06. Her time currently marks the best in the country for the event and sets a new program record.
On Saturday, Thomas won the 200-yard freestyle by less than seven seconds and set a new pool, meet, and program record of 1:41.93, the fastest time in the nation, the school shared on its website.
She continued her record-breaking streak Sunday, winning the 1,650-yard freestyle by more than 38 seconds with a time of 15:59.71, according to UPenn. Her teammate Anna Kalandadze finished second.people.com/sports/upenn-swimmer-lia-thomas-who-is-transgender-continues-to-break-womens-records/?amp=trueAfter googling this story (extensively covered by some outlets, virtually ignored by others) I learned that Thomas will break several all time women’s records (held by icons of the women’s swimming world) if she regains the form she had as a he. She was the runner-up in three swimming events at the Ivy Championships as an outstanding male swimmer on UPenn’s male team a couple of years ago. Apparently, some women on the team (understandably) think this whole situation is grossly unfair but are (also understandably) afraid to speak out.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 14, 2021 5:56:30 GMT -5
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Post by hcpride on Dec 14, 2021 6:19:20 GMT -5
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Post by purplehaze on Dec 14, 2021 8:43:49 GMT -5
I heard a trans advocate defend Lia by saying it’s just the Ivy League records - when she (they) start setting NCAA records then the outrage will be much broader - will be interesting if she even swims in national meets
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Post by Tom on Dec 14, 2021 9:10:05 GMT -5
Apparently, some women on the team (understandably) think this whole situation is grossly unfair but are (also understandably) afraid to speak out. Just a guess, but imagine the women on other teams who finish second behind Thomas aren't thrilled with this either Per posts on a different thread, the NCAA has a rule to cover this situation and Thomas is within the rules
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Post by hcpride on Dec 14, 2021 10:20:07 GMT -5
Apparently, some women on the team (understandably) think this whole situation is grossly unfair but are (also understandably) afraid to speak out. Just a guess, but imagine the women on other teams who finish second behind Thomas aren't thrilled with this either Per posts on a different thread, the NCAA has a rule to cover this situation and Thomas is within the rules There is no suggestion by anyone that Thomas is breaking any rules (there is a suggestion that the NCAA rule in this particular situation does not adequately address the profound physical differences). To purplehaze's point, while she has already qualified in three events for the NCAAs (including the fastest collegiate time this year in one of the events) and set some meet, pool, school, and Ivy League records she has not broken any national collegiate records. She, as a he, certainly swam considerably faster than the great Katie Ledecky and it would definitely bring more attention if she (as a she) now broke a Ledecky record or two.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Dec 14, 2021 11:21:23 GMT -5
Headline should read: "Man Swims Faster Than Women, No One Surprised."
This reminds me of a one-liner that my dad used to tell me about the word "IF." He always mentioned kings and queens, but other people use the same joke about aunts and uncles...
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 14, 2021 12:11:07 GMT -5
"Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" -some smart person in history.
True for Civil Rights, Gay Rights, Women's Rights, etc. This is a tougher one but will probably end up being true for trans rights, too. The medical advancements can't be reversed.
Perhaps an accommodation similar to Special Olympics will emerge.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 14, 2021 16:33:29 GMT -5
In Special Olympics, they do not allow girls to compete with boys. This might be a way to break that rule permanently. (I once got admonished because at the NJ State Special Olympics at Princeton University one of the Kennedys was shocked that a girl was allowed to be running on the same track as boys in the pentathlon. She was the only female entered and wanted to score as many points as possible - almost impossible running alone on a track - since the "place" of finish does not matter.)
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Post by bison137 on Dec 14, 2021 17:58:51 GMT -5
Just a guess, but imagine the women on other teams who finish second behind Thomas aren't thrilled with this either Per posts on a different thread, the NCAA has a rule to cover this situation and Thomas is within the rules There is no suggestion by anyone that Thomas is breaking any rules (there is a suggestion that the NCAA rule in this particular situation does not adequately address the profound physical differences). To purplehaze's point, while she has already qualified in three events for the NCAAs (including the fastest collegiate time this year in one of the events) and set some meet, pool, school, and Ivy League records she has not broken any national collegiate records. She, as a he, certainly swam considerably faster than the great Katie Ledecky and it would definitely bring more attention if she (as a she) now broke a Ledecky record or two. Yes, but their rules make no sense. Incredibly anti-female.
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Post by bison137 on Dec 14, 2021 18:05:20 GMT -5
"Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" -some smart person in history. True for Civil Rights, Gay Rights, Women's Rights, etc. This is a tougher one but will probably end up being true for trans rights, too. The medical advancements can't be reversed. Perhaps an accommodation similar to Special Olympics will emerge. The issue here couldn’t possibly be more different than that of civil rights or gay rights. It is incredibly unfair to all female athletes, and most Americans do not support the current situation when it is actually explained to them. No female has any chance at all to compete with a good male athlete who has opted to compete as a female.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 14, 2021 18:14:12 GMT -5
Imagine being Shelby Fortin whose records were broken because of this.
And it's really not women's records here that are being destroyed, but it's sports as well. Imagine diving into the pool with Lia Thomas knowing that the race is over before it even began?
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 14, 2021 18:58:10 GMT -5
"Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" -some smart person in history. True for Civil Rights, Gay Rights, Women's Rights, etc. This is a tougher one but will probably end up being true for trans rights, too. The medical advancements can't be reversed. Perhaps an accommodation similar to Special Olympics will emerge. The issue here couldn’t possibly be more different than that of civil rights or gay rights. It is incredibly unfair to all female athletes, and most Americans do not support the current situation when it is actually explained to them. No female has any chance at all to compete with a good male athlete who has opted to compete as a female. I mean acceptance of transgender people will probably follow well worn tracks of previous social change, but for this competitive imbalance, a separate class of competition like in Special Olympics might emerge so that this athlete could compete for world records in the trans woman division, but not the women's division. Trans men could have their own division, too and that would be even closer to the Special Olympics concept because trans men must be eating dust in men's track and swimming competition. Or eating waves, not dust in swimming.🙂
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Post by newfieguy74 on Dec 14, 2021 19:19:00 GMT -5
"I mean acceptance of transgender people will probably follow well worn tracks of previous social change, but for this competitive imbalance, a separate class of competition like in Special Olympics might emerge so that this athlete could compete for world records in the trans woman division, but not the women's division. Trans men could have their own division, too and that would be even closer to the Special Olympics concept because trans men must be eating dust in men's track and swimming competition. Or eating waves, not dust in swimming.🙂"
I can't foresee a separate class of competition. Any action that makes trans people feel more marginalized is never going to be accepted.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 14, 2021 19:42:18 GMT -5
"I mean acceptance of transgender people will probably follow well worn tracks of previous social change, but for this competitive imbalance, a separate class of competition like in Special Olympics might emerge so that this athlete could compete for world records in the trans woman division, but not the women's division. Trans men could have their own division, too and that would be even closer to the Special Olympics concept because trans men must be eating dust in men's track and swimming competition. Or eating waves, not dust in swimming.🙂" I can't foresee a separate class of competition. Any action that makes trans people feel more marginalized is never going to be accepted. Developmentally disabled folks and their advocates have worked for inclusion in public schools and the work place but a separate environment to celebrate the joy of athletic competition. Trans folks may develop a sense of enlightened self interest and come around to something similar to stop the criticism and get back to enjoying athletic competition. Of course winning races handily can be most enjoyable and the swimmer in question seems to be immune from criticism, so you may be right.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 14, 2021 20:23:50 GMT -5
"I mean acceptance of transgender people will probably follow well worn tracks of previous social change, but for this competitive imbalance, a separate class of competition like in Special Olympics might emerge so that this athlete could compete for world records in the trans woman division, but not the women's division. Trans men could have their own division, too and that would be even closer to the Special Olympics concept because trans men must be eating dust in men's track and swimming competition. Or eating waves, not dust in swimming.🙂" I can't foresee a separate class of competition. Any action that makes trans people feel more marginalized is never going to be accepted. Do you feel it will be OK for biological female gender women to be marginalized? That is what will happen unless this is addressed. When many women who must compete against these transgender females with the strength and abilities of men do not see this as in any way an equal playing field. Their wishes do not see to be considered at all.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Dec 14, 2021 20:26:27 GMT -5
I didn't say I agree with it. I just said that I don't foresee a separate competition ever coming to fruition.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 14, 2021 20:33:04 GMT -5
I didn't say I agree with it. I just said that I don't foresee a separate competition ever coming to fruition. I can remember when that was said about certain events and women - the marathon and the pole vault are two that come to mind right away. It was said that women would never be able top compete in these events. They are now common. If it was my daughter (or granddaughter) who was told she needed to compete against someone who was now female because she chose to be so categorized (but retained the physical abilities she developed when she was classified as a man). My first call would be to a lawyer. That will not be far away. Heck, we already sue in this country for almost everything else.
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Post by bfoley82 on Dec 14, 2021 22:22:50 GMT -5
Franklin Pierce had a runner a few years ago that was smashing conference records and pushing D-2 records also...it is a tough subject to discuss.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2021 22:55:48 GMT -5
I had a Brother in law who then became my X sister in law. Ruined my sister, their kids & my mother lives. This was back in the early 80's. Should have let a friend put a end to this misfit Still looked like a man with long hair. Dated a female state trooper.Works for major corporation.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 15, 2021 5:38:46 GMT -5
I didn't say I agree with it. I just said that I don't foresee a separate competition ever coming to fruition. I can remember when that was said about certain events and women - the marathon and the pole vault are two that come to mind right away. It was said that women would never be able top compete in these events. They are now common. If it was my daughter (or granddaughter) who was told she needed to compete against someone who was now female because she chose to be so categorized (but retained the physical abilities she developed when she was classified as a man). My first call would be to a lawyer. That will not be far away. Heck, we already sue in this country for almost everything else. Apparently at least two members of the UPenn’s women’s swim team are dismayed at the situation and have spoken to the press anonymously. It says something regarding today’s culture that these women are so afraid of a ‘transphobia’ label and subsequent cancelling (in terms of team membership, UPenn support, future employment, etc) by elements of the woke mob that they cannot openly address this manifestly unfair situation. So there is actually a double hit on the women on the team: Unfair competition and woke muzzling. The latter might speak to those contemplating legal redress.
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Post by alum on Dec 15, 2021 6:24:45 GMT -5
I had a Brother in law who then became my X sister in law. Ruined my sister, their kids & my mother lives. This was back in the early 80's. Should have let a friend put a end to this misfit Still looked like a man with long hair. Dated a female state trooper.Works for major corporation. I am sure she speaks highly of you.
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Post by Tom on Dec 15, 2021 8:54:24 GMT -5
I had a Brother in law who then became my X sister in law. Ruined my sister, their kids & my mother lives. This was back in the early 80's. Should have let a friend put a end to this misfitAs someone who thinks gender should be determined by X and Y chromosomes and not because you identify with characteristics that society decided belonged to a particular gender, even I think that is more than a little harsh
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Post by WCHC Sports on Dec 15, 2021 9:38:29 GMT -5
I sure wish I could just lament my God-given talents (or lack thereof) and physical traits, and in spite of them concoct a "feeling" or identity that goes contra to that. And instead of somebody slapping some sense in me, the whole country rides the wave of momentum to not call any movement silly, idiotic, immature, offensive, but instead must champion it. $20 says this student wins an ESPY.
I've had a dream of flying more times than I can remember. Besides dunking a basketball (only did that once with a golf ball), it's really the only lucid dream I can remember having with any sort of frequency. Yet, I stare at my body, 200 pounds (before holiday feasting), my solid and filled bones (as opposed to birds' hollow ones), and see that gravity has its full grasp on me. Still, within my very soul I can close my eyes and envision myself soaring among the clouds effortlessly, wind and rain cooling my face. And as I climb to the top of the midtown NYC building where I work, the scores of false-equivalency "rights advocates" clap and cheer for me. "YOU CAN DO IT!" "Don't let anyone tell your truth." I toe the edge of the 46 story concrete, I take a deep breath and leap... and end up an idiot puddle on 52nd street below.
This isn't someone born a person who has a different skin color, eye color, hair color, height, weight, ethnicity, language, bank account, love interest being told they can't eat in their restaurant; they can't buy a house in their neighborhood; they can't attend the same school; they can't work in the same job at the same company; they can't marry the person they love. This is somebody staring at themselves in the mirror and saying "this is not me"-- when factually it's as "me" as "me" can get-- and even as the athletic performances and the ignorant eye test prove otherwise.
There's more than just the women in the pool at those swim meets that should be offended, worried, or insulted.
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Dec 15, 2021 11:03:39 GMT -5
Grabbing my popcorn to watch the trans activists and feminists fight this one out.
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