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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 16, 2021 12:41:43 GMT -5
I think the solution to this issue needs to head one of three ways before the sanctity of women's sports becomes bastardized:
1) Whether one is eligible to play a MENS or WOMENS sport ought to be traced back to gender assigned at birth. This makes sense since gender assigned at birth is the factor that most accurately predicts one's body type, muscle build and athletic ability.
2) Create trans-gender divisions to allow for fair, controversy-free inclusion. This may need to be done outside of a traditional scholastic-based athletic structure for reasons of numbers. Obviously a HS of 300 students likely won't have enough trans athletes to fill out a basketball or baseball team. But there would be a market for such teams and competitions to be established. And you absolutely could have "trans" divisions in the Olympics or World Championships, etc. I do have a softball friend of mine (born male) who is trans. They will occasionally still play for my men's team as a sub once or twice per year but they have strayed away from playing co-ed simply because it's awkward. This person actually plays in a trans league in NYC that just started this past spring. So this is starting to become a thing.
3) Make all sports co-ed. Male or female, the best players make the team and the best players play. If Rapinoe can make the US Co-Ed National Soccer Team, she'll finally get equal pay.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 16, 2021 19:12:36 GMT -5
I think the solution to this issue needs to head one of three ways before the sanctity of women's sports becomes bastardized: 1) Whether one is eligible to play a MENS or WOMENS sport ought to be traced back to gender assigned at birth. This makes sense since gender assigned at birth is the factor that most accurately predicts one's body type, muscle build and athletic ability. 2) Create trans-gender divisions to allow for fair, controversy-free inclusion. This may need to be done outside of a traditional scholastic-based athletic structure for reasons of numbers. Obviously a HS of 300 students likely won't have enough trans athletes to fill out a basketball or baseball team. But there would be a market for such teams and competitions to be established. And you absolutely could have "trans" divisions in the Olympics or World Championships, etc. I do have a softball friend of mine (born male) who is trans. They will occasionally still play for my men's team as a sub once or twice per year but they have strayed away from playing co-ed simply because it's awkward. This person actually plays in a trans league in NYC that just started this past spring. So this is starting to become a thing. 3) Make all sports co-ed. Male or female, the best players make the team and the best players play. If Rapinoe can make the US Co-Ed National Soccer Team, she'll finally get equal pay. Just curious if you are being respectful by calling your friend "they" or if the friend has actually requested to be called "they" instead of the "she" pronoun that the friend obviously went to great lengths to earn the right to use?
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Post by bison137 on Dec 16, 2021 19:48:35 GMT -5
I can remember when that was said about certain events and women - the marathon and the pole vault are two that come to mind right away. It was said that women would never be able top compete in these events. They are now common. If it was my daughter (or granddaughter) who was told she needed to compete against someone who was now female because she chose to be so categorized (but retained the physical abilities she developed when she was classified as a man). My first call would be to a lawyer. That will not be far away. Heck, we already sue in this country for almost everything else. Apparently at least two members of the UPenn’s women’s swim team are dismayed at the situation and have spoken to the press anonymously. It says something regarding today’s culture that these women are so afraid of a ‘transphobia’ label and subsequent cancelling (in terms of team membership, UPenn support, future employment, etc) by elements of the woke mob that they cannot openly address this manifestly unfair situation. So there is actually a double hit on the women on the team: Unfair competition and woke muzzling. The latter might speak to those contemplating legal redress. Reportedly there are more on the team who are dismayed, but Penn administrators have pressured them not to speak out.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 16, 2021 20:36:00 GMT -5
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 16, 2021 20:36:11 GMT -5
I think the solution to this issue needs to head one of three ways before the sanctity of women's sports becomes bastardized: 1) Whether one is eligible to play a MENS or WOMENS sport ought to be traced back to gender assigned at birth. This makes sense since gender assigned at birth is the factor that most accurately predicts one's body type, muscle build and athletic ability. 2) Create trans-gender divisions to allow for fair, controversy-free inclusion. This may need to be done outside of a traditional scholastic-based athletic structure for reasons of numbers. Obviously a HS of 300 students likely won't have enough trans athletes to fill out a basketball or baseball team. But there would be a market for such teams and competitions to be established. And you absolutely could have "trans" divisions in the Olympics or World Championships, etc. I do have a softball friend of mine (born male) who is trans. They will occasionally still play for my men's team as a sub once or twice per year but they have strayed away from playing co-ed simply because it's awkward. This person actually plays in a trans league in NYC that just started this past spring. So this is starting to become a thing. 3) Make all sports co-ed. Male or female, the best players make the team and the best players play. If Rapinoe can make the US Co-Ed National Soccer Team, she'll finally get equal pay. Just curious if you are being respectful by calling your friend "they" or if the friend has actually requested to be called "they" instead of the "she" pronoun that the friend obviously went to great lengths to earn the right to use? My friend is trans but doesn't identify fully with either gender to my understanding and indicated that "they/their" is preferred.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 16, 2021 22:04:31 GMT -5
Just curious if you are being respectful by calling your friend "they" or if the friend has actually requested to be called "they" instead of the "she" pronoun that the friend obviously went to great lengths to earn the right to use? My friend is trans but doesn't identify fully with either gender to my understanding and indicated that "they/their" is preferred. Good for them. No skin off my nose...if that phrase is still used in the 21st century.🙂
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 17, 2021 8:30:56 GMT -5
I remember "no skin off my back" but not the "nose." That was to be kept to the grindstone, so I imagine some skin was lost there. Maybe it is a regional thing.
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Post by Tom on Dec 17, 2021 9:41:12 GMT -5
I think the solution to this issue needs to head one of three ways before the sanctity of women's sports becomes bastardized: 1) Whether one is eligible to play a MENS or WOMENS sport ought to be traced back to gender assigned at birth. This makes sense since gender assigned at birth is the factor that most accurately predicts one's body type, muscle build and athletic ability. 2) Create trans-gender divisions to allow for fair, controversy-free inclusion. This may need to be done outside of a traditional scholastic-based athletic structure for reasons of numbers. Obviously a HS of 300 students likely won't have enough trans athletes to fill out a basketball or baseball team. But there would be a market for such teams and competitions to be established. And you absolutely could have "trans" divisions in the Olympics or World Championships, etc. I do have a softball friend of mine (born male) who is trans. They will occasionally still play for my men's team as a sub once or twice per year but they have strayed away from playing co-ed simply because it's awkward. This person actually plays in a trans league in NYC that just started this past spring. So this is starting to become a thing. 3) Make all sports co-ed. Male or female, the best players make the team and the best players play. If Rapinoe can make the US Co-Ed National Soccer Team, she'll finally get equal pay. I think there is zero chance of option 3 ever happening. In most cases, you will effectively be eliminating females from competitive athletics
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Post by newfieguy74 on Dec 17, 2021 9:45:01 GMT -5
I think there is zero chance of #2 or #3 happening. The chances for #1 depend on what you state you're talking about.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 17, 2021 10:28:23 GMT -5
I think the solution to this issue needs to head one of three ways before the sanctity of women's sports becomes bastardized: 1) Whether one is eligible to play a MENS or WOMENS sport ought to be traced back to gender assigned at birth. This makes sense since gender assigned at birth is the factor that most accurately predicts one's body type, muscle build and athletic ability. 2) Create trans-gender divisions to allow for fair, controversy-free inclusion. This may need to be done outside of a traditional scholastic-based athletic structure for reasons of numbers. Obviously a HS of 300 students likely won't have enough trans athletes to fill out a basketball or baseball team. But there would be a market for such teams and competitions to be established. And you absolutely could have "trans" divisions in the Olympics or World Championships, etc. I do have a softball friend of mine (born male) who is trans. They will occasionally still play for my men's team as a sub once or twice per year but they have strayed away from playing co-ed simply because it's awkward. This person actually plays in a trans league in NYC that just started this past spring. So this is starting to become a thing. 3) Make all sports co-ed. Male or female, the best players make the team and the best players play. If Rapinoe can make the US Co-Ed National Soccer Team, she'll finally get equal pay. I think there is zero chance of option 3 ever happening. In most cases, you will effectively be eliminating females from competitive athletics #3 was more satire. I think some combination of #1 and #2 makes most sense.
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Post by HC92 on Dec 17, 2021 10:56:56 GMT -5
I think there is zero chance of option 3 ever happening. In most cases, you will effectively be eliminating females from competitive athletics #3 was more satire. I think some combination of #1 and #2 makes most sense. With all due respect, “sense” really has no place in these discussions.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 17, 2021 11:05:14 GMT -5
#3 was more satire. I think some combination of #1 and #2 makes most sense. With all due respect, “sense” really has no place in these discussions. Heck, even discussing possible alternatives (sensible or otherwise) to the current UPenn situation is apparently streng verboten on the campus. I have to wonder if Thomas will tire of beating the women swimmers and hang it up before the NCAA's. I know Thomas has already hit the qualifying marks for several events this year but you never know.
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Post by alum on Dec 17, 2021 12:27:11 GMT -5
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Post by HC92 on Dec 17, 2021 12:54:19 GMT -5
I am happy with any solution to the trans athlete issue that eliminates the advantages that biological males have over biological females when competing together. That has obviously not happened yet with the UPenn swimmer.
The part of the culture war that bothers me is when schools spend time on the first day of school each year making sure they poll each student about their preferred pronouns and the circumstances under which they want others to use those pronouns instead of just working to find sensible solutions between parents, students and teachers for the rare students who want different pronouns than the ones that would go with their birth gender. When my kids come home from the first day and I ask them how it went, they tell me all about how many times they were asked about their pronouns.
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Post by Tom on Dec 17, 2021 13:23:55 GMT -5
One year doesn't cut it. Is there a time period of hormone treatment where it will be a level playing field? Or is it a case of hormone treatment never fully makes up for 15-20 years of a person's natural anatomy? I'm guessing never 100 percent, but I suppose it's possible there might be a time when it's darn close. Sometimes it doesn't seem like it, but in high school and college there's a finite window for competition. It's supposed to be four years - not uncommon these days for it to be longer. If one year of hormone treatment isn't enough, is two years? Will it take 3 years? I would assume that pretty much blows through a high school career and puts a big dent in a college career
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 17, 2021 13:24:37 GMT -5
I am happy with any solution to the trans athlete issue that eliminates the advantages that biological males have over biological females when competing together. That has obviously not happened yet with the UPenn swimmer. The part of the culture war that bothers me is when schools spend time on the first day of school each year making sure they poll each student about their preferred pronouns and the circumstances under which they want others to use those pronouns instead of just working to find sensible solutions between parents, students and teachers for the rare students who want different pronouns than the ones that would go with their birth gender. When my kids come home from the first day and I ask them how it went, they tell me all about how many times they were asked about their pronouns. Tread carefully, 92. You might get called a bigot for your words.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 17, 2021 13:32:01 GMT -5
Among three main subjects in the UPenn saga, Lia Thomas, her teammates, and the parents of her teammates, the third group is the most fascinating.
The team members are all adults, and among the most physically and intellectually capable in the world being Ivy League varsity athletes. What is the proper role of the parents?
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Post by HC92 on Dec 17, 2021 13:38:07 GMT -5
Among three main subjects in the UPenn saga, Lia Thomas, her teammates, and the parents of her teammates, the third group is the most fascinating. The team members are all adults, and among the most physically and intellectually capable in the world being Ivy League varsity athletes. What is the proper role of the parents? I suspect the parents are much less concerned with the social stigma of being labeled bigots or worse than their 18-22 year old daughters living in one of the most liberal environments on earth. So, I suspect they view their role as being a voice for those afraid to be heard on this sensitive subject.
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Post by alum on Dec 17, 2021 13:55:04 GMT -5
Among three main subjects in the UPenn saga, Lia Thomas, her teammates, and the parents of her teammates, the third group is the most fascinating. The team members are all adults, and among the most physically and intellectually capable in the world being Ivy League varsity athletes. What is the proper role of the parents? I suspect the parents are much less concerned with the social stigma of being labeled bigots or worse than their 18-22 year old daughters living in one of the most liberal environments on earth. So, I suspect they view their role as being a voice for those afraid to be heard on this sensitive subject. True, but they are also the same type of parents who called the coach or league president when their kid didn't get to play the position they wanted on travel soccer, and the high school AD when the kid didn't make varsity as a sophomore. Parents today fully believe that it is their role to advocate for their kids and there is no reason to think it stops at the college level. I suspect that one of the reasons we see so many transfers is because parents validate kids' concerns about playing time instead of simply telling them to work harder and earn it. Those kids who change high schools and AAU teams three times don't do it on their own. Their parents drive it. The parents want success and recognition as much or more than the kids.
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Post by HC92 on Dec 17, 2021 13:59:32 GMT -5
I suspect the parents are much less concerned with the social stigma of being labeled bigots or worse than their 18-22 year old daughters living in one of the most liberal environments on earth. So, I suspect they view their role as being a voice for those afraid to be heard on this sensitive subject. True, but they are also the same type of parents who called the coach or league president when their kid didn't get to play the position they wanted on travel soccer, and the high school AD when the kid didn't make varsity as a sophomore. Parents today fully believe that it is their role to advocate for their kids and there is no reason to think it stops at the college level. I suspect that one of the reasons we see so many transfers is because parents validate kids' concerns about playing time instead of simply telling them to work harder and earn it. Those kids who change high schools and AAU teams three times don't do it on their own. Their parents drive it. The parents want success and recognition as much or more than the kids. I think this situation is a little different but I have plenty of experience dealing with kids and parents about playing time as you know. No doubt what you say about parents and their role in their kids’ sports is very true.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 17, 2021 14:19:25 GMT -5
I think the solution to the trans athlete controversy can somewhat easily be solved by looking at it via a three-pronged lens of fairness, inclusiveness and empowerment.
1) Fairness -- promoting fairness of competition, namely protecting the sanctity of women's sports, which culturally have gained so much ground over the past 25 years. Why go backwards? It's obvious that the largest factor contributing to athletic potential when it comes to speed and strength is gender assigned at birth. 2) Empowerment -- I really do think an effort can be made to create trans-specific rec and club-level competition for athletes that would like to participate in an environment where they are not stigmatized next to binary teammates. I do believe there would be opportunity to create divisions at the national and world competition level for trans athletes. And I think these competitions would help raise awareness to trans issues. 3) Inclusiveness -- I do think that an effort to accommodate trans athletes at the scholastic level (HS, college) should be made. If an athlete is willing and talented enough to compete on a team, they can do so as long as they're competing alongside and against athletes of the same birth-assigned gender. Simultaneously, schools should ensure that these athletes are comfortably able to identify themselves in a team environment by the gender of THEIR choice. This would extend to uniform accommodations to dressing room privacy, etc. Same way it would be done if a girl were to play on a football team or if a boy were to compete on a field hockey team.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 17, 2021 14:19:32 GMT -5
The coach at UPenn is in a fascinating position as well and appears to be taking the Seargant Schultz approach, which is probably for the best. Just encourage all of his team members as he usually does and keep the trains running on time.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 17, 2021 16:37:30 GMT -5
The coach at UPenn is in a fascinating position as well and appears to be taking the Seargant Schultz approach, which is probably for the best. Just encourage all of his team members as he usually does and keep the trains running on time. The coach might think the whole episode is horribly unfair to the women on the team he has recruited and worked with, the women his team competes against, and those women whose records were smashed. I can't imagine a sentient human not thinking the whole episode is unfair. But at the same time I can't imagine a UPenn team member or the UPenn coach or a UPenn administrator actually saying that publicly nowadays. Maybe Charles Barkley or Bill Maher or Martina Navratilova or J.K. Rowling or The National Review.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Dec 17, 2021 18:34:20 GMT -5
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 17, 2021 20:34:22 GMT -5
When Congress, the Courts, the NCAA, the Ivy League and the University of Pennsylvania have all approved or at least not disapproved Ms. Thomas's participation on the swim team, I can't blame her for anything. Although she no longer has them literally, Ms. Thomas figuratively has "big ones" to take all the grief she is receiving, even if it is indirect as most people are criticizing Congress, the Courts, the NCAA, the Ivy League and UPenn directly.
I like a separate arrangement for trans men and trans women to compete against each other as a solution, but until that is available, I support Ms. Thomas swimming in the lane that is open to her.
One question that I haven't seen addressed is whether she would have been welcome on the UPenn men's swim team this year and could have achieved great personal satisfaction and general acclaim for overcoming reduced testosterone and still finishing third or fourth in a race and contributing to the team in that way.
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