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Post by rgs318 on Mar 18, 2022 8:39:53 GMT -5
In this regard I typically quote the late Tom Lehrer... "I know there are those ("haters") who do not love all of their fellow men, and I hate people like that."
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Post by clmetsfan on Mar 25, 2022 8:57:27 GMT -5
A relevant excerpt from the Republican Governor of Utah regarding his veto of a ban on trans students playing sports:
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Mar 25, 2022 9:18:29 GMT -5
Maybe Lia Thomas could have swam in the men's division until she was medically determined to not have an unfair advantage physically over women? That way, she still gets to compete, but isn't doing so in an unequal way.
CL Mets, I'm assuming you agree Lia Thomas competing in the women's division isn't fair, right?
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Mar 25, 2022 9:54:09 GMT -5
Are not the alarmingly high suicidal rates the governor sights as a result of the decision to transition and all of the emotional and physical issues that come with that?
I’m just not sure allowing trans people to play sports is going to be a solution to these high numbers.
(For what it’s worth, I’m all for a trans person competing in sports with the group in which he/she has transitioned to, so long as there is no unfair advantage)
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Post by clmetsfan on Mar 25, 2022 9:58:49 GMT -5
Maybe Lia Thomas could have swam in the men's division until she was medically determined to not have an unfair advantage physically over women? That way, she still gets to compete, but isn't doing so in an unequal way. CL Mets, I'm assuming you agree Lia Thomas competing in the women's division isn't fair, right? Interesting that you talk about medically-determined rulings on physical advantages. Thomas's hormone levels are on par with cis women after she took a year off while undergoing hormone replacement treatment. Her times are good, but not record-breaking. She's also obviously worked hard to get them back down after they rose dramatically when she started back up again. In fact, her times in the men's division BEFORE transitioning were slower than they are now, after she's undergone HRT, which lowered her height by an inch and decreased her muscle mass. So what exactly is her unfair advantage?
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Mar 25, 2022 10:20:58 GMT -5
You really don't think there are some inherit advantages Lia has carried with her over to women's swimming? Come on.
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Post by clmetsfan on Mar 25, 2022 10:35:13 GMT -5
You really don't think there are some inherit advantages Lia has carried with her over to women's swimming? Come on. You brought up medically-determined rulings. Is that no longer the basis you want to use?
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 25, 2022 11:46:11 GMT -5
How about the ratio of muscle tissue to adipose tissue (higher in women). That does not change over night if maintained and enhanced through physical workouts.
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Post by clmetsfan on Mar 25, 2022 12:10:38 GMT -5
How about the ratio of muscle tissue to adipose tissue (higher in women). That does not change over night if maintained and enhanced through physical workouts. I'm not very familiar with the scientific background of this criteria and how it relates to hormone therapy, but remember that Lia Thomas gained fat and lost muscle mass as result of her HRT. I don't know if it's within the same levels for cis women, or if there is even a "normal" range for cis women that's of any use here. If you do, please share. All that said, if medical experts (actual ones, not some of the keyboard experts in this thread) determine that it's a viable mechanism for normalizing the playing field, I'm all for it. What I know for sure is that Lia Thomas is playing within the rules, and that there's been no medical data shared in this thread which shows that she has an unfair physical advantage.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 25, 2022 12:14:35 GMT -5
Are those the NCAA rules they abandoned to let her compete in the national championship?
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Post by clmetsfan on Mar 25, 2022 12:48:31 GMT -5
Are those the NCAA rules they abandoned to let her compete in the national championship? You have it backwards. The previous NCAA rule that was thrown out used looser restrictions for trans athletes (1 year of hormone therapy). By defaulting to the rules of the national governing bodies for each sport, Thomas (who has undergone three years of HRT) had to also prove that her testosterone levels were within range. That's the rule change that they enacted just before nationals, which they then delayed the implementation of given the last-minute timing.
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Post by Tom on Mar 25, 2022 12:49:21 GMT -5
A relevant excerpt from the Republican Governor of Utah regarding his veto of a ban on trans students playing sports: Did Utah really have a bill pass that banned trans people playing sports? Or was it more like a bill saying trans students could participate, but had to do so with their gender as defined by genetics and not stated identity?
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Post by clmetsfan on Mar 25, 2022 13:09:15 GMT -5
A relevant excerpt from the Republican Governor of Utah regarding his veto of a ban on trans students playing sports: Did Utah really have a bill pass that banned trans people playing sports? Or was it more like a bill saying trans students could participate, but had to do so with their gender as defined by genetics and not stated identity? Whatever semantics want you use, the governor made the right decision based on public health.
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Post by Tom on Mar 25, 2022 13:24:55 GMT -5
Just questioning if there was really a ban on trans students playing sports, which I think almost everyone would consider wrong. Versus saying trans students can participate, but have to follow guidelines for team assignment that they disagree with - a position some people agree with and some disagree with
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 25, 2022 15:50:55 GMT -5
When you see Lia Thomas in her swim suit next to her teammates and opponents, it is off-putting and you feel for the competing swimmers. but watching and listening to some commentators (not on Crossports) treat her like some type of sub-human creature I feel empathy for her.
She's letting the firestorm of controversy and criticism roll off her like water off a duck, which takes courage and being comfortable in her own skin.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Mar 27, 2022 10:22:24 GMT -5
When you see Lia Thomas in her swim suit next to her teammates and opponents, it is off-putting and you feel for the competing swimmers. but watching and listening to some commentators (not on Crossports) treat her like some type of sub-human creature I feel empathy for her. She's letting the firestorm of controversy and criticism roll off her like water off a duck, which takes courage and being comfortable in her own skin. 100%. Can't fault her. She's following the rules laid out for her by the Ivy League and NCAA and competing with the gender which she identifies with. While courageously dealing with national backlash. But that doesn't make it fair. This is a scenario where it's obvious that the NCAA needs to tackle this issue ASAP to ensure that the sanctity of women's sports is upheld. Did anyone see that NBC's story reporting her victory included a photo that was "airbrushed" to make Lia appear more feminine? Tells you all you need to know.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 27, 2022 11:27:44 GMT -5
Few people follow swimming or care much who wins any meet. When some 6-3 inch transgender basketball player takes the court there may be increased focus on the issue.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Mar 27, 2022 13:15:11 GMT -5
I believe GW actually had a trans on their WBB team a few years back. The reason Lia has been getting so much attention is because of the margins by which she was winning some of her races. A trans playing at the level of Britney Griner in WBB would certainly put the issue thoroughly on the forefront.
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Post by bfoley82 on Mar 27, 2022 18:23:35 GMT -5
When you see Lia Thomas in her swim suit next to her teammates and opponents, it is off-putting and you feel for the competing swimmers. but watching and listening to some commentators (not on Crossports) treat her like some type of sub-human creature I feel empathy for her. She's letting the firestorm of controversy and criticism roll off her like water off a duck, which takes courage and being comfortable in her own skin. 100%. Can't fault her. She's following the rules laid out for her by the Ivy League and NCAA and competing with the gender which she identifies with. While courageously dealing with national backlash. But that doesn't make it fair. This is a scenario where it's obvious that the NCAA needs to tackle this issue ASAP to ensure that the sanctity of women's sports is upheld. Did anyone see that NBC's story reporting her victory included a photo that was "airbrushed" to make Lia appear more feminine? Tells you all you need to know. Well, the photographer didn't submit it airbrushed. That was done by the Today show. news.yahoo.com/photographer-disappointed-today-show-alteration-202325915.html
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Post by bfoley82 on Mar 27, 2022 18:24:14 GMT -5
I believe GW actually had a trans on their WBB team a few years back. The reason Lia has been getting so much attention is because of the margins by which she was winning some of her races. A trans playing at the level of Britney Griner in WBB would certainly put the issue thoroughly on the forefront. Cece Teifer won a national championship in Track at Franklin Pierce and faced the same thing.
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Post by Tom on Mar 28, 2022 8:01:09 GMT -5
The attention is all about the competitive unbalance. Basketball, unlike track or swimming, is a physical sport. Basketball would get more attention from that aspect.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Apr 4, 2022 14:18:04 GMT -5
The attention is all about the competitive unbalance. Basketball, unlike track or swimming, is a physical sport. Basketball would get more attention from that aspect. Swimming and track are the definition of "physical sport". Unlike basketball or baseball, the best pure athlete almost always wins. So the competitive disadvantage is actually greater in these sports than in "ball sports". The reason Lia Thomas got the attention it did is because she was a conference champion and NCAA champion. There already has been at least one trans athlete who competed in NCAA Division I Women's Basketball but she wasn't particularly good so no attention was paid. If a Men's DI scholarship basketball player changed genders, switched to their school's women's team and performed at the level of Griner or Bueckers, obviously the attention there would dwarf the Lia Thomas story. Especially since the games might be televised depending on what level DI program she was playing for. Interesting side note: The ONE sport where women routinely dominate men is ultra long-distance open-water swimming. The reason is because women have a higher body fat % and are able to keep their body temperature higher over time, which impacts performance. At the amateur and club level there's also virtually no difference between men and women's performance in curling. At the Olympic level, men have a slight advantage because their leg drive allows them to execute the faster shots better, and men can sweep harder, which would provide an advantage in controlling the curve of the shots.
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Post by Tom on Apr 4, 2022 15:18:58 GMT -5
The attention is all about the competitive unbalance. Basketball, unlike track or swimming, is a physical sport. Basketball would get more attention from that aspect. Swimming and track are the definition of "physical sport". Unlike basketball or baseball, the best pure athlete almost always wins. So the competitive disadvantage is actually greater in these sports than in "ball sports". The reason Lia Thomas got the attention it did is because she was a conference champion and NCAA champion. There already has been at least one trans athlete who competed in NCAA Division I Women's Basketball but she wasn't particularly good so no attention was paid. If a Men's DI scholarship basketball player changed genders, switched to their school's women's team and performed at the level of Griner or Bueckers, obviously the attention there would dwarf the Lia Thomas story. Especially since the games might be televised depending on what level DI program she was playing for. Interesting side note: The ONE sport where women routinely dominate men is ultra long-distance open-water swimming. The reason is because women have a higher body fat % and are able to keep their body temperature higher over time, which impacts performance. At the amateur and club level there's also virtually no difference between men and women's performance in curling. At the Olympic level, men have a slight advantage because their leg drive allows them to execute the faster shots better, and men can sweep harder, which would provide an advantage in controlling the curve of the shots. All about competitive balance. When I said that track and swimming were not physical sports, I wasn't talking about the individual prowess required to excel. In those sports, you generally do not touch your opponent. In basketball, a genetic male fighting through a hard screen set by a female could have a greater probability of injuring the opponent. There is an assumption of risk when playing a contact sport. I don't think too many females go into a contact sport with the assumption of risk from collision with a genetic male. For these reasons, where there is a combination of competitive imbalance as well as increased risk of injury, I think if this situation occurred in a contact sport like basketball, it would receive greater attention than in non contact sports like swimming or track
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Apr 4, 2022 15:33:03 GMT -5
Great points Tom
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 4, 2022 18:34:54 GMT -5
Because I KNOW deep in my soul that nobody would go snip, snip to set a swimming record, I have empathy for the trans athletes who want to keep playing and have sports stay a rewarding and centering continuity in their life after undergoing such a huge transformation.
Let the sports world respond with some trans specific competitions as the science catches up with the psychology and there are enough similar athletes to compete against each other.
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