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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Nov 18, 2016 7:13:41 GMT -5
A compelling reason? A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Current head coaches in the Ivy League and Patriot League, and where they came from
Bucknell, from Rutgers, but previously for about 10 years at Bucknell, and 10 years at Princeton Colgate, from within (19 years as an assistant) Fordham, from within Georgetown, from within Lafayette, from within, from being an assistant for 13 years at LC Lehigh, from within, 12 years at LU as an assistant prior
Brown, from within Columbia, from UPenn Cornell, from within, Dartmouth, from Dartmouth to Stanford to Dartmouth Harvard, from elsewhere, and long ago (1994) Murphy had been an assistant at Brown, BostonU, Lafayette Penn, from within, @ Penn since 1987 Princeton, alum, no prior FCS, from Cincinnati Bengals Yale, from Harvard
CTG is a PL anomaly, having no prior Holy Cross experience Surace @princeton, is an Ivy anomaly, having no prior coaching experience in the Ivies.
We have 15 athletic directors across two conferences, and over the years, their choice of head football coach seems to come from a very small universe. Either they suffer collectively from a narrow mindset, or the number of coaches who actually want to coach and recruit in an Academic Index conference is limited.
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Post by joe on Nov 18, 2016 8:02:59 GMT -5
I don't care if Tom Brady enrolls at HC for a fifth year, I simply do not see how the current roster can compete, especially given that last year's two deep was senior-laden. You just can pin your hopes for a program by playing the fifth year card and hoping that one player stays healthy. You may sneak in a championship here and there, but you don't build consistent programs on this philosophy. As a former optimist, and die hard smash mouth old school Delaware Wing-T kind of a guy I just don't get why we have an offensive game plan with so many moving parts. CTG is a bulldog and he should run an offense that is an extension of his red faced balls to the wall sideline demeanor. Ok? I said it. Recruit some bigger players who may need to develop their finer skills but who will put their heads down and run people over. 3.5 yards a down is all you need. You can get that on line push and forward lean alone if you have the right guys. Go down to north Jersey - I will show you where to freaking look. Start with that. Change the mind set. Run up the middle literally and philosophically. Run the program with the same mind set. Run it like a program that is pissed off because that's what we are. If your mad you throw a punch in someone's face not toss a rock from behind a bush. I like Tom. And I'm fine if he stays. But if we're not going to change Tom, Tom needs to change. Or maybe he needs to be himself, one or the other. The path forward is somewhere in all of this. And it's mental first, I'm sure of it. Let's just get the cards on the table and finally tell it like it is. First step to self help is admitting what the problem is. And it's that we run and offense and defense that does not intimidate or overpower, and that's what wins FCS championships. Anyone want to get real and care to chime in? What about username "realism?" You want real talk, here it is. Let's get it going. Everyone at HC and football supporters, including us on this forum, need to get a real conversation going. You don't find kids who will win championships by showing them architectural renderings of media rooms. Kids will train in barns and shower in water troughs if it means they're going to win championships. The kids we recruited can adopt this mentality and the kids we recruit in the future need to be those kind of kids. Muscle, size, heart, and brains. It's not easy but these kids are out there, and a lot of them live within driving distance of HC. I don't care about a tenth of a second on a 40 time or on stats. You can teach all that stuff but you can't teach 3.5 years per carry. You can't teach wanting to hurt the opponent so bad they look up at the clock and just want it to end, like what happened to us at Yankee Stadium.
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Post by hchoops on Nov 18, 2016 8:09:02 GMT -5
I don't care if Tom Brady enrolls at HC for a fifth year, I simply do not see how the current roster can compete, especially given that last year's two deep was senior-laden. You just can pin your hopes for a program by playing the fifth year card and hoping that one player stays healthy. You may sneak in a championship here and there, but you don't build consistent programs on this philosophy. As a former optimist, and die hard smash mouth old school Delaware Wing-T kind of a guy I just don't get why we have an offensive game plan with so many moving parts. CTG is a bulldog and he should run an offense that is an extension of his red faced balls to the wall sideline demeanor. Ok? I said it. Recruit some bigger players who may need to develop their finer skills but who will put their heads down and run people over. 3.5 yards a down is all you need. You can get that on line push and forward lean alone if you have the right guys. Go down to north Jersey - I will show you where to freaking look. Start with that. Change the mind set. Run up the middle literally and philosophically. Run the program with the same mind set. Run it like a program that is pissed off because that's what we are. If your mad you throw a punch in someone's face not toss a rock from behind a bush. I like Tom. And I'm fine if he stays. But if we're not going to change Tom, Tom needs to change. Or maybe he needs to be himself, one or the other. The path forward is somewhere in all of this. And it's mental first, I'm sure of it. Let's just get the cards on the table and finally tell it like it is. First step to self help is admitting what the problem is. And it's that we run and offense and defense that does not intimidate or overpower, and that's what wins FCS championships. Joe, do you believe that TG is going to change after all these years ?
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Post by joe on Nov 18, 2016 8:17:54 GMT -5
I don't care if Tom Brady enrolls at HC for a fifth year, I simply do not see how the current roster can compete, especially given that last year's two deep was senior-laden. You just can pin your hopes for a program by playing the fifth year card and hoping that one player stays healthy. You may sneak in a championship here and there, but you don't build consistent programs on this philosophy. As a former optimist, and die hard smash mouth old school Delaware Wing-T kind of a guy I just don't get why we have an offensive game plan with so many moving parts. CTG is a bulldog and he should run an offense that is an extension of his red faced balls to the wall sideline demeanor. Ok? I said it. Recruit some bigger players who may need to develop their finer skills but who will put their heads down and run people over. 3.5 yards a down is all you need. You can get that on line push and forward lean alone if you have the right guys. Go down to north Jersey - I will show you where to freaking look. Start with that. Change the mind set. Run up the middle literally and philosophically. Run the program with the same mind set. Run it like a program that is pissed off because that's what we are. If your mad you throw a punch in someone's face not toss a rock from behind a bush. I like Tom. And I'm fine if he stays. But if we're not going to change Tom, Tom needs to change. Or maybe he needs to be himself, one or the other. The path forward is somewhere in all of this. And it's mental first, I'm sure of it. Let's just get the cards on the table and finally tell it like it is. First step to self help is admitting what the problem is. And it's that we run and offense and defense that does not intimidate or overpower, and that's what wins FCS championships. Joe, do you believe that TG is going to change after all these years ? I don't know if he can or can't, or if he even believes he needs to change. And my opinion is just one man's opinion. It would seem to be the general tone at HC is that "everything is going to be fine." Well it isn't fine, and hasn't been fine for 25 years, and won't fine again unless something changes. If we think that that thing is renovated locker rooms and an indoor grass field we're living on another planet. As I said, first step is admitting what the problem is, and so far no one other than me and a few others can do that. We have enough money for good coaches, an even amount of scholarships compared to our league counterparts, and acceptable facilities as they are today. What we don't have is the mind set and the willingness to go back to the basics. Remember when we had a d lineman play fullback? Well he should have been our starting fullback. That's my mentality. And what the heck happened to our fantastic tight ends again this year? These are the types of players you turn to when you need to gut games out. It's a mindset. We've been watching this erratic spread offense long enough. How about we try something different?
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 18, 2016 8:25:24 GMT -5
All this discussion is moot if what 45 posted on another thread is correct and TG is returning.
But to Joe's other points, I agree almost 100%.
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Post by crusader12 on Nov 18, 2016 8:36:05 GMT -5
Do we have a copy of the letter that was sent out?
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Post by 86sader on Nov 18, 2016 8:38:21 GMT -5
The idea that "kids will train in barns and shower in water troughs if it means they're going to win championships" is absolutely wrong. Top level recruits pay very close attention to the quality of the facilities when they attend summer camps and when they take their visits. It is great that we have invested in the new indoor facility. If you show a recruit a barn and a bucket, you will not attract low level recruits, you will not get any recruits.
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Post by joe on Nov 18, 2016 8:47:08 GMT -5
The idea that "kids will train in barns and shower in water troughs if it means they're going to win championships" is absolutely wrong. Top level recruits pay very close attention to the quality of the facilities when they attend summer camps and when they take their visits. It is great that we have invested in the new indoor facility. If you show a recruit a barn and a bucket, you will not attract low level recruits, you will not get any recruits. One hundred percent bullspit! One hundred percent. Not the kids we want. And of course everyone understands that I was speaking in hyperbole regarding the barn analogy. Our current facilities are certainly not barn and water trough quality. They are fine - nice locker room, nice training facilities, nice stadium. FINE. And they have been fine for 25 years, and if you think a facility upgrade is the missing ingredient your are way, way off. I'm sick and tired of this conversation. It doesn't start with brick and mortar, it starts with heart and soul.
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Post by 86sader on Nov 18, 2016 8:55:00 GMT -5
You obviously have not been involved in the recruiting process recently. Having lived through it for the past three years and traveling all over the country, I know what the recruits see, what they prioritize, how they compare and contrast, what they talk about among themselves and what goes into their final decisions. Facilities are a major factor.
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 18, 2016 8:55:49 GMT -5
Joe, I am not sure about this generation of athletes. I recognized your hyperbole but think that most kids, even the blood & guts variety, are looking for good facilities, not necessarily world class. I believe our facilities were sub-par but now will be well above average and, at our level, perhaps close to world class.
And, once more, I will trot out that we are never as good as we think we are but also never as bad as we think we are.
Let's move forward . . . . and a 235 pound, pack-moving RB might help.
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Post by joe on Nov 18, 2016 9:04:04 GMT -5
You obviously have not been involved in the recruiting process recently. Having lived through it for the past three years and traveling all over the country, I know what the recruits see, what they prioritize, how they compare and contrast, what they talk about among themselves and what goes into their final decisions. Facilities are a major factor. Sorry 86, I've been in the mix enough to know (and my preference is to keep how in confidence) that we are using average to subpar facilities as an excuse for poor recruiting. Our facilities do not explain getting pissed on by Fordham by 50 points. Now that we don't have that excuse any more, what's our new one going to be? It's true that sometimes your not as bad as you think, but in order to get better you have to believe you are that you are that bad. You have to be honest and approach it from that perspective. Look at the records over the last half decade. We are not good. Say it out loud, admit it, build an improvement plan, change the attitude, and move on. Only then will we start getting good again. Otherwise HC will be a team who hangs its collective head, week after week, in a billion dollar locker room.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Nov 18, 2016 9:44:29 GMT -5
There's been a suggestion that if HC recruited close to home, HC would do a lot better, talent-wise.
Trying to assess that claim objectively, and not getting into the rosters of HYP as HC can no longer compete with them because of their financial aid, but looking at the rosters of Fordham, Lehigh, and Colgate, the top tier of the PL.
Fordham, two from MA, five from CT, majority from Fairfield county Lehigh, one from MA, one from NH Colgate, four from MA, three from CT
From New England, 16 players , or six percent of their rosters of the top three PL teams, are from New England.
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 18, 2016 10:00:38 GMT -5
Joe, Joe, Joe . . . I was agreeing with you until you took your previous hyperbole and "trumped" it exponentially.
Think we lost to Fordham 54-14, which is 40 points the way I do math and a "billion dollar" locker room?
The poor facilities, lack of cooperation from Admissions, lack of initial commitment to full schollies allowances, may be excuses or they may be legitimate reasons for lack of the stellar success we think we should be achieving. I do know that Fr. B's attitude towards athletics is almost, not quite, but almost 180 degrees different than Fr. McF's was.
People posted here about how could we get recruits like Colgate and Fordham who were playing the big boys. We knew the answer was partially because we didn't have the schollie equivilency for those games to count for the higher tier teams. That and frankly, my suspicion we didn't really want to play those guys for an assortment of reasons. Now they are on future schedules and Crossporters are bewailing that we won't be ready and will get killed by them.
This is a chicken or egg dilemma. How many recruits won't come because we play a weak schedule? But when you add the I-A teams to the schedule, you probably will get killed until the higher level recruits come and gain experience. Then posters will ask, why did we upgrade the schedule?
Playing UNH, Harvard and Yale are upgrades over who we've played in recent years (except Harvard, of course). These are top tier programs at our level. PL Fordham and Colgate are no slouches either.
I again remind everyone that Duffner years were exceptions, not the rule over the last 50 years. Yes, we should strive to re-gain that level but it is not like we have a "right" to expect it.
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Post by joe on Nov 18, 2016 10:31:05 GMT -5
Joe, Joe, Joe . . . I was agreeing with you until you took your previous hyperbole and "trumped" it exponentially. Think we lost to Fordham 54-14, which is 40 points the way I do math and a "billion dollar" locker room? The poor facilities, lack of cooperation from Admissions, lack of initial commitment to full schollies allowances, may be excuses or they may be legitimate reasons for lack of the stellar success we think we should be achieving. I do know that Fr. B's attitude towards athletics is almost, not quite, but almost 180 degrees different than Fr. McF's was. People posted here about how could we get recruits like Colgate and Fordham who were playing the big boys. We knew the answer was partially because we didn't have the schollie equivilency for those games to count for the higher tier teams. That and frankly, my suspicion we didn't really want to play those guys for an assortment of reasons. Now they are on future schedules and Crossporters are bewailing that we won't be ready and will get killed by them. This is a chicken or egg dilemma. How many recruits won't come because we play a weak schedule? But when you add the I-A teams to the schedule, you probably will get killed until the higher level recruits come and gain experience. Then posters will ask, why did we upgrade the schedule? Playing UNH, Harvard and Yale are upgrades over who we've played in recent years (except Harvard, of course). These are top tier programs at our level. PL Fordham and Colgate are no slouches either. I again remind everyone that Duffner years were exceptions, not the rule over the last 50 years. Yes, we should strive to re-gain that level but it is not like we have a "right" to expect it. We have a "right" to expect more than 1 PL championship every 25 years. Fordham is 50 points better than us, the last TD was meaningless. I will say it again, hyperbole or not - Fordham University Ram Football is 50 points better than Holy Cross Crusader Football on 11/18/16. The rest is hot air. We are on an even playing field with non-schollie Georgetown, maybe Bucknell or Lafayette, and that's it. OK it's a not a billion but at least a multimillion dollar locker room, isn't it? I'm only using hyperbole (I guess like Trump if you insist) because people who follow HC football apparently seem to need that to understand what the hell is going on with their program. Speaking is in subtle, optimistic terms is what I am so many others have been doing for 25 years. And now we're throwing millions into facilities and hoping that this will somehow land players to close that 50 point gap? And we still don't have lights. The sooner we realize this won't happen, the sooner we can figure out the path that will make it happen. I'm afraid were not only going to get embarrassed at UConn, but that one or more of our players will get seriously injured, that's how far off we are right now. As for BC, Navy, 'Cuse, they will call those games off after the 3rd quarter at our current pace. We'll lose 75-3. No apologies for no longer being the optimist. People are living in la-la-land and it needs to end. The kids who play for HC football, more than anyone else, deserve more.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Nov 18, 2016 11:17:58 GMT -5
I looked at rosters to see how many players were from Florida, the West Coast, and Texas.
FL / CA-OR-WA-AZ / TX
Colgate 16 / 3 / 0 Fordham 7 / 6 / 1 Lehigh 14 / 3 /1 Holy Cross 10 / 6 / 1 (13 from MA, one from NH)
Villanova 5 / 3 / 0 (3 from MA) Richmond 8 / 1 / 0 (0 from New England) William & Mary 2 / 0 / 0 (0 from New England)
The three CAA schools are academically comparable, so I am assuming their recruits (or most of them) would be admitted in the PL.
Three of 270 (or so) from New England in the CAA schools.
These six highly ranked FCS schools have 19 players from New England, Holy Cross has 14 from New England. Maybe that's an explanation.
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Post by joe on Nov 18, 2016 11:25:57 GMT -5
I am as in touch with the recruiting scene as much as anyone wants to be. To say HC & others are behind Fordham especially is an understatement. My youngest Brother was a full ride Football player there 91-94, they have been in the Scholarship Football Business for a while. The biggest draw to HC from the recruits, I know hundreds of them, is in order (only athletically) 1. Upgraded Facilities. 2. Upgraded schedule to include the FBS teams, 5 in the next 4 years. 3. HCTG and his very enthusiastic Recruiters on staff especially Fanning. Biggest reasons for these same kids choosing PL Schools instead of IL Schools is Scholarships and how unevenly the Financial Aide distribution is at the IL's & Georgetown. In our area there are several Safety recruits and I do mean several, over the past 2 years 8 of them in D-1 (no it is not in New England). In everyone's opinion the 2 HC has are superior prospects to the kid going to G-town next year and the kid going to Brown now. Their decisions are based on the lack of Financial Aide available to middle class kids as much as anything else. Unless you are relatively poor the IL FA package is not all that. HC & PL Football in their present state as newly funded Football schools is doing great and will be outstanding for a long time as long as they both stay the course. Interesting - I know it's hard to speak for hundred of kids, but from what you've seen in those choosing HC, what sets HC apart (in their eyes) from the other PL schools? Granted we will soon have the "newest" of the new facilities, but don't the other top PL schools also have good academics, generally acceptable facilities, FBS teams on their schedules, and good, enthusiastic coaches and recruiters?
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 18, 2016 11:27:13 GMT -5
I don't care if Tom Brady enrolls at HC for a fifth year, I simply do not see how the current roster can compete, especially given that last year's two deep was senior-laden. You just can pin your hopes for a program by playing the fifth year card and hoping that one player stays healthy. You may sneak in a championship here and there, but you don't build consistent programs on this philosophy. As a former optimist, and die hard smash mouth old school Delaware Wing-T kind of a guy I just don't get why we have an offensive game plan with so many moving parts. CTG is a bulldog and he should run an offense that is an extension of his red faced balls to the wall sideline demeanor. Ok? I said it. Recruit some bigger players who may need to develop their finer skills but who will put their heads down and run people over. 3.5 yards a down is all you need. You can get that on line push and forward lean alone if you have the right guys. Go down to north Jersey - I will show you where to freaking look. Start with that. Change the mind set. Run up the middle literally and philosophically. Run the program with the same mind set. Run it like a program that is pissed off because that's what we are. If your mad you throw a punch in someone's face not toss a rock from behind a bush. I like Tom. And I'm fine if he stays. But if we're not going to change Tom, Tom needs to change. Or maybe he needs to be himself, one or the other. The path forward is somewhere in all of this. And it's mental first, I'm sure of it. Let's just get the cards on the table and finally tell it like it is. First step to self help is admitting what the problem is. And it's that we run and offense and defense that does not intimidate or overpower, and that's what wins FCS championships. Anyone want to get real and care to chime in? What about username "realism?" You want real talk, here it is. Let's get it going. Everyone at HC and football supporters, including us on this forum, need to get a real conversation going. You don't find kids who will win championships by showing them architectural renderings of media rooms. Kids will train in barns and shower in water troughs if it means they're going to win championships. The kids we recruited can adopt this mentality and the kids we recruit in the future need to be those kind of kids. Muscle, size, heart, and brains. It's not easy but these kids are out there, and a lot of them live within driving distance of HC. I don't care about a tenth of a second on a 40 time or on stats. You can teach all that stuff but you can't teach 3.5 years per carry. You can't teach wanting to hurt the opponent so bad they look up at the clock and just want it to end, like what happened to us at Yankee Stadium. /\ Fotball guy
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Post by inhocsigno on Nov 18, 2016 11:29:22 GMT -5
Welcome newsaderdad. Agree on all points.
As an aside, with respect to the comments re New England football on the board, you can ignore that. This has been an ongoing commentary for too long. Obviously there are great players in all areas of the country, but you need to recruit heavily in high volume - highly competitive areas, i.e. if you want to win more, you need to recruit successfully in Florida.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Nov 18, 2016 11:49:00 GMT -5
Anyone want to get real and care to chime in? What about username "realism?" You want real talk, here it is. Let's get it going. Everyone at HC and football supporters, including us on this forum, need to get a real conversation going. You don't find kids who will win championships by showing them architectural renderings of media rooms. Kids will train in barns and shower in water troughs if it means they're going to win championships. The kids we recruited can adopt this mentality and the kids we recruit in the future need to be those kind of kids. Muscle, size, heart, and brains. It's not easy but these kids are out there, and a lot of them live within driving distance of HC. I don't care about a tenth of a second on a 40 time or on stats. You can teach all that stuff but you can't teach 3.5 years per carry. You can't teach wanting to hurt the opponent so bad they look up at the clock and just want it to end, like what happened to us at Yankee Stadium. /\ Fotball guy Sounds like Coach O's philosophy.
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Post by purplehaze on Nov 18, 2016 12:19:33 GMT -5
Pphreek said "The three CAA schools are academically comparable, so I am assuming their recruits (or most of them) would be admitted in the PL."
I believe the ability to compete for recruits from those 3 high academic CAA schools is critical to our success going forward. What concerns me is that the CAA does not have an academic index, and therefore many of their recruits actually would 'not' be admitted to HC. Unless we turn that around, I am not optimistic that this program will succeed at a level that we all want it to.
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Post by worcester on Nov 18, 2016 12:50:05 GMT -5
A compelling reason? A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Current head coaches in the Ivy League and Patriot League, and where they came fromBucknell, from Rutgers, but previously for about 10 years at Bucknell, and 10 years at Princeton Colgate, from within (19 years as an assistant) Fordham, from within Georgetown, from within Lafayette, from within, from being an assistant for 13 years at LC Lehigh, from within, 12 years at LU as an assistant prior Brown, from within Columbia, from UPenn Cornell, from within, Dartmouth, from Dartmouth to Stanford to Dartmouth Harvard, from elsewhere, and long ago (1994) Murphy had been an assistant at Brown, BostonU, Lafayette Penn, from within, @ Penn since 1987 Princeton, alum, no prior FCS, from Cincinnati Bengals Yale, from Harvard CTG is a PL anomaly, having no prior Holy Cross experience Surace @princeton, is an Ivy anomaly, having no prior coaching experience in the Ivies. We have 15 athletic directors across two conferences, and over the years, their choice of head football coach seems to come from a very small universe. Either they suffer collectively from a narrow mindset, or the number of coaches who actually want to coach and recruit in an Academic Index conference is limited. The athletic directors suffer from a narrow mindset.
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Post by worcester on Nov 18, 2016 12:53:18 GMT -5
A compelling reason? A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Current head coaches in the Ivy League and Patriot League, and where they came fromBucknell, from Rutgers, but previously for about 10 years at Bucknell, and 10 years at Princeton Colgate, from within (19 years as an assistant) Fordham, from within Georgetown, from within Lafayette, from within, from being an assistant for 13 years at LC Lehigh, from within, 12 years at LU as an assistant prior Brown, from within Columbia, from UPenn Cornell, from within, Dartmouth, from Dartmouth to Stanford to Dartmouth Harvard, from elsewhere, and long ago (1994) Murphy had been an assistant at Brown, BostonU, Lafayette Penn, from within, @ Penn since 1987 Princeton, alum, no prior FCS, from Cincinnati Bengals Yale, from Harvard CTG is a PL anomaly, having no prior Holy Cross experience Surace @princeton, is an Ivy anomaly, having no prior coaching experience in the Ivies. We have 15 athletic directors across two conferences, and over the years, their choice of head football coach seems to come from a very small universe. Either they suffer collectively from a narrow mindset, or the number of coaches who actually want to coach and recruit in an Academic Index conference is limited. The athletic directors suffer from a narrow mindset. The athletic directors have a narrow mindset.
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Post by crusader12 on Nov 29, 2016 13:17:32 GMT -5
Reliable source says that TG isn't going anywhere. For the record, ignutz was spot. insider?
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Post by timholycross on Nov 29, 2016 14:30:01 GMT -5
HC has always been light years behind when it comes to facilities. The Hart Center and Fitton rehab were for the most part outdated when they were completed. Basically you had a pair of 1970 buildings.
I'm not in total agreement with how the $ is being spent to upgrade (without getting into the details, nothing on Fitton and not much on the hockey rink doesn't make that much sense to me)...you have to be nuts to think that improvements weren't long overdue. Has nothing to do with football style of play or toughness on the field (admittedly lacking).
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