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Post by trimster on Jan 25, 2022 9:08:54 GMT -5
As far as Chesney goes, he is recruiting better than his PL peers. I’d put Carmody as a recruiter either average or below average relative to his PL peers. Nelson, IMHO, is below average in this regard. I think his recruiting (as measured by offers) is at least average and a significant step above where Carmody was. As measured by offers, Nelson’s recruiting is much better than Carmody’s. The bigger issue is that the results have been terrible once Nelson’s recruits have arrived. Part of that is because other than Gates, none of them have played a full continuous D1 season yet. Hard to expect great results given that fact though the results should definitely be better than kenpom 350. But realistically, based on the level of inexperience, I’m not sure we should be much better. Maybe kenpom 275-300 range would be in line with expectations? Since you bring up ratings, it made me think just where on the scale of 1-358 the powers that be at HC should expect the men’s basketball program to consistently rank year in and year out. Allow me to remove my purple colored glasses and say it should be in the 125-150 range.
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Post by mm67 on Jan 25, 2022 9:12:49 GMT -5
Why would any competent, successful coach in his right mind take the job at HC? We are constantly changing coaches after a few years - SK, fired; MB, let go; BC, did retire; And now BN. Add to that the reality that HC is a hard sell to recruits in the current climate. The schools decline in number of applicants in recent years indicates the problem extends far beyond attracting basketball recruits. A long gone history of modestly decent basketball is totally irrelevant. Times have changed. Tangentially, although the football team despite recent success has been in the crapper for much of the 21st century, the school has not had a revolving door for coaches. For many years some were screaming for the scalp of Tom Gilmore, a truly fine man but the school continued to show support until it was clear that a move was best for both parties. It's called loyalty. So in summary HC has been a struggling program, flopping around , at or near the bottom of the crappy PL. It has a recent history of changing coaches quickly. Any opportunity for career advancement has thus been destroyed for these men - the graveyard. Coaching b-ball at HC is a dead end. Do we truly believe the coaching job at HC is a sought-after jewel ? Why would any sane, competent individual choose to coach at HC over a job opportunity at another school Div I ,II, or III? Just some thoughts.
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Post by timholycross on Jan 25, 2022 9:13:42 GMT -5
Take whatever that ranking was at best after Blaney arrived (the best season(s) ender, not some AP poll that made us look a lot better than we were), adjust it down somewhat because of the conference we ended up in; and factor in the number of additional D1 teams, and you'll have it. That range is about right, I think.
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Post by hc17 on Jan 25, 2022 9:15:17 GMT -5
I'll ask again: At what point does the statute of limitations run out on this "inexperience" excuse? And who is responsible for the inexperience? Carmody? Blossom? The Administration? Fr. Boroughs? Our program has been in the dumps for more than a decade. We've 'missed' on multiple hires. Without a doubt, its everyone from the coach to the AD to the President of the College to the Board. Whether its his doing or not, the coach not speaking to media routinely is a joke...particularly in the times we find ourselves in. I'd think Media availability is part of the whole D1 Head Coaching gig....as well as....speaking to your fans. The entire program feels fractured, lacks continuity and a vision. I don't want to hear about graduation rates and guys that are all-academic (although I'm happy for those guys that they are getting the job done in the classroom). I want wins. 20+ win seasons. Home play-off games. Post season tourney appearances. As a grad, it's infuriating to see an insitutation succeed in so many other ways, but flop when it has time and time again to right it's course. We're due. It may not be Nelson, but surely we've got to 'hit' on a hire next.
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Post by hc17 on Jan 25, 2022 9:16:51 GMT -5
I think his recruiting (as measured by offers) is at least average and a significant step above where Carmody was. As measured by offers, Nelson’s recruiting is much better than Carmody’s. The bigger issue is that the results have been terrible once Nelson’s recruits have arrived. Part of that is because other than Gates, none of them have played a full continuous D1 season yet. Hard to expect great results given that fact though the results should definitely be better than kenpom 350. But realistically, based on the level of inexperience, I’m not sure we should be much better. Maybe kenpom 275-300 range would be in line with expectations? Since you bring up ratings, it made me think just where on the scale of 1-358 the powers that be at HC should expect the men’s basketball program to consistently rank year in and year out. Allow me to remove my purple colored glasses and say it should be in the 125-150 range. I believe we were routinely a top 150 team (sometimes 100) per Pomeroy in the Willard years if memory serves me correctly. It can be done.
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Post by efg72 on Jan 25, 2022 9:31:56 GMT -5
I think when evaluating Nelson and his recruiting we might be measuring the wrong elements. Instead of looking at the individual talent or completeness of their game(remember we are getting 2-star recruits), we should evaluate how Nelson is building the roster for whatever style we are trying to play.
The pieces of the puzzle are NOT complimentary which means for the most part the roster is one-dimensional and many players share similar deficiencies. It appears as if the recruiting is focused on getting the best available athletes, and not the best players to fill the needs of the team. So while I would give him a C+ for recruiting his way, I would give him a D- for building a roster.
In my opinion, the bigger problem is not recruiting but understanding the talents each player brings to the team and knowing how to put the right line-up on the floor to get the best match-ups and WIN games. Certain players receive more minutes than they have earned and others seem buried- I get it coaches decision, but for line-up management, I give him an F.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 25, 2022 9:40:05 GMT -5
Would that be a sign of a weak AD? Postgame tonight – and it's usually up within 90 minutes of the end of the game: Nicely done by Brennan and AU. Professional. I guess, when there is extremely little interest in the program these days and there is no one around to ask questions (save for Charlie Bare), then what's the point? If a tree falls.
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 25, 2022 9:42:07 GMT -5
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 25, 2022 9:42:36 GMT -5
Why would any competent, successful coach in his right mind take the job at HC? I can give you more than 300,000 reasons every year.
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Post by mm67 on Jan 25, 2022 9:46:39 GMT -5
Why would any competent, successful coach in his right mind take the job at HC? I can give you more than 300,000 reasons every year. Respectfully, HC is not the only college which pays decently. We are in competition with other colleges, no? Obviously, as I wrote the football program has not been a revolving door for coaches. It's a totally different situation. Also, let's face it. It took many years for HC to catch "lightning in a bottle" Chesney. We can't expect that as a routine matter. Look, I totally understand and I do share your hope that, evidence to the contrary, somehow, some way HC can hire a Chesney type of inspirational coach to lead HC basketball back to the "heights". Peace.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 25, 2022 9:49:39 GMT -5
I can give you more than 300,000 reasons every year. Respectfully, HC is not the only college which pays decently. We are in competition with other colleges, no? There are only so many of these jobs to go around every year. HC pays well for the low-major level....and certainly much better than D2 and D3.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Jan 25, 2022 10:03:55 GMT -5
I believe we were routinely a top 150 team (sometimes 100) per Pomeroy in the Willard years if memory serves me correctly. It can be done. Holy Cross KenPom (Non-Conference SoS)
1999-2000 NA 2000-2001 NA 2001-2002 162 (246) 2002-2003 66 (170) 2002-2004 171 (200) 2004-2005. 66 (154) 2005-2006 129 (107) 2006-2007 93 (130) 2007-2008 170 (170) 2008-2007 182 (195)
RW AVG. 130 (172)
SK (09-10) 235 (144) MB AVG. 218 (168) BC AVG. 258 (237)
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Post by mm67 on Jan 25, 2022 10:04:38 GMT -5
Rather than put BN in front of a firing squad after 2 1/2 years under extremely difficult circumstances I have some thoughts, probably overly simplistic. Obviously, as per routine, post season sit down with the young coach. Offer to support. Ask what he believes he needs within the parameters of HC admissions at this time. (Complaining about HC admissions is off the mark. After all we are competing against colleges with similar or higher admissions standards.) He is a young coach. Would an experienced older possibly retired coach to serve as an assistant help? Hire sort of an eminence grise to advise and guide as to recruiting, type of play and coaching up - someone similar to a Tex Winter or Johnny Bach assistants to the relatively young Phil Jackson(He was a success with the Albany Patroons but had no prior NBA head coaching experience.) Would other changes to help in recruiting a group with complementary talents be advisable? I'm sure there are other changes which could be offered by those more knowledgeable than me. I honestly believe firing BN as terrible as the teams have been would hurt HC. Of course,if he of his own accord would amicably leave the school to accept a position at another school that would be a more desirable outcome. Nonetheless, HC would still face the problem of hiring a new head coach with his own team of assistants. Just some thoughts.
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Post by trimster on Jan 25, 2022 10:09:02 GMT -5
Take whatever that ranking was at best after Blaney arrived (the best season(s) ender, not some AP poll that made us look a lot better than we were), adjust it down somewhat because of the conference we ended up in; and factor in the number of additional D1 teams, and you'll have it. That range is about right, I think. One nitpick, we didn't end up in the PL, we were a major reason it was created. Having said that, being in the 125-150 range would place us at or near the top of the PL, on a consistent basis.
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Post by efg72 on Jan 25, 2022 10:22:33 GMT -5
mm67 agree that the idea of finding a compromise solution might be a decent option under most other circumstances. Unfortunately for Nelson, we need to rip off the bandaid and try and pair the football success with the basketball team and let them sprint forward together. Nelson suffers from the history of the past decade, Covid, and his lack of moving the program forward. While not all of this is his fault, we can't keep this up. The history and tradition of the past have been gone for the past thirty or so years, but we can build a new future and create a history for the future. As George Allen said- the Future is Now.
Our goal should be to find our way to the top 150 teams each year and play a great OOC schedule to build interest on campus, in Worcester, and with alums/fans. We can get this done, but we need to get off the merry-go-round of the current program and find our new path forward.
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Post by hc17 on Jan 25, 2022 10:33:58 GMT -5
I believe we were routinely a top 150 team (sometimes 100) per Pomeroy in the Willard years if memory serves me correctly. It can be done. Holy Cross KenPom (Non-Conference SoS)
1999-2000 NA 2000-2001 NA 2001-2002 162 (246) 2002-2003 66 (170) 2002-2004 171 (200) 2004-2005. 66 (154) 2005-2006 129 (107) 2006-2007 93 (130) 2007-2008 170 (170) 2008-2007 182 (195)
RW AVG. 130 (172)
SK (09-10) 235 (144) MB AVG. 218 (168) BC AVG. 258 (237)
The drop-off is staggering.
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Post by longsuffering on Jan 25, 2022 10:35:08 GMT -5
Post season sit down after historic 3-29 first season:
AD: What do you need for support?
Coach: I need to replace all of my predecessor's players with my own and I need privacy after losses.
AD: Done
That's just a spoof, but what support has coach not received? The assistants have one year contracts and he can build his staff any way he likes each year, I believe. I actually think a consistent four person staff for three straight years with all their own recruits, is in a vaccum, a fabulous asset in low D-1 and I keep waiting for that close relationship to click and credit it with keeping the roster all here despite a frustrating w/l record for all concerned.
The odds that these four particular coaches are all simply unable to coach and that fact has been camouflaged by each being part of four person staffs in the past is unlikely. It's puzzling but hopefully things do click and wins happen in the second trip around the league.
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Post by mm67 on Jan 25, 2022 10:37:06 GMT -5
efg we share the same goals. Realistically, what is the best path. "Rip off the bandaid" (love the metaphor) to what end? How do we cover the exposed sore? We have had great difficulty in finding the right coach. Constant firing and hiring has not worked.No doubt HC has damaged its reputation and appeal to other potential hires. Maybe, "Lightning in a bottle" is right around the corner. I believe it took John Wooden 17 years to reach the NCAA Tournament.Yeah, he did produce some good teams prior to the NCAA. But, UCLA did stay with him, let him grow & develop and voila, "Lightning in a bottle." Fraternally.
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Post by hc17 on Jan 25, 2022 10:38:51 GMT -5
Rather than put BN in front of a firing squad after 2 1/2 years under extremely difficult circumstances I have some thoughts, probably overly simplistic. Obviously, as per routine, post season sit down with the young coach. Offer to support. Ask what he believes he needs within the parameters of HC admissions at this time. (Complaining about HC admissions is off the mark. After all we are competing against colleges with similar or higher admissions standards.) He is a young coach. Would an experienced older possibly retired coach to serve as an assistant help? Hire sort of an eminence grise to advise and guide as to recruiting, type of play and coaching up - someone similar to a Tex Winter or Johnny Bach assistants to the relatively young Phil Jackson(He was a success with the Albany Patroons but had no prior NBA head coaching experience.) Would other changes to help in recruiting a group with complementary talents be advisable? I'm sure there are other changes which could be offered by those more knowledgeable than me. I honestly believe firing BN as terrible as the teams have been would hurt HC. Of course,if he of his own accord would amicably leave the school to accept a position at another school that would be a more desirable outcome. Nonetheless, HC would still face the problem of hiring a new head coach with his own team of assistants. Just some thoughts. I think you hit on some really good points. Nelson should have had an experienced coach along side him from the jump. Initially, I liked the new staff and felt the gains on the recruiting trail were paying off. Reaching out to RJ Evans I thought was an excellent move. With that said, they lacked head coaching experience. Perhaps that is down to the budget. On a side note, I feel for fellow alum RJ. I have on pretty good authority that he'd love to be the head guy at HC someday and considers it a 'dream opportunity'.
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Post by crusader1970 on Jan 25, 2022 10:43:38 GMT -5
I'll ask again: At what point does the statute of limitations run out on this "inexperience" excuse? The biggest inexperience that we are all suffering with is that of Coach Nelson.
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Post by trimster on Jan 25, 2022 10:44:39 GMT -5
I believe we were routinely a top 150 team (sometimes 100) per Pomeroy in the Willard years if memory serves me correctly. It can be done. Holy Cross KenPom (Non-Conference SoS)
1999-2000 NA 2000-2001 NA 2001-2002 162 (246) 2002-2003 66 (170) 2002-2004 171 (200) 2004-2005. 66 (154) 2005-2006 129 (107) 2006-2007 93 (130) 2007-2008 170 (170) 2008-2007 182 (195)
RW AVG. 130 (172)
SK (09-10) 235 (144) MB AVG. 218 (168) BC AVG. 258 (237)
Thank you WG for compiling this. So the RW years should be the goal.
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Post by trimster on Jan 25, 2022 10:53:48 GMT -5
Slightly OT but does the Friends of Crusader Basketball still exist.
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Post by crusader1970 on Jan 25, 2022 10:55:08 GMT -5
Why would any competent, successful coach in his right mind take the job at HC? We are constantly changing coaches after a few years - SK, fired; MB, let go; BC, did retire; And now BN. Add to that the reality that HC is a hard sell to recruits in the current climate. The schools decline in number of applicants in recent years indicates the problem extends far beyond attracting basketball recruits. A long gone history of modestly decent basketball is totally irrelevant. Times have changed. Tangentially, although the football team despite recent success has been in the crapper for much of the 21st century, the school has not had a revolving door for coaches. For many years some were screaming for the scalp of Tom Gilmore, a truly fine man but the school continued to show support until it was clear that a move was best for both parties. It's called loyalty. So in summary HC has been a struggling program, flopping around , at or near the bottom of the crappy PL. It has a recent history of changing coaches quickly. Any opportunity for career advancement has thus been destroyed for these men - the graveyard. Coaching b-ball at HC is a dead end. Do we truly believe the coaching job at HC is a sought-after jewel ? Why would any sane, competent individual choose to coach at HC over a job opportunity at another school Div I ,II, or III? Just some thoughts. Coach Willard's success was a tough act to follow,.
Following Coach Nelson might be the easiest act to follow in the entire Div I.
I am sure that there are a good number of successful Div II and III coaches that would jump at the opportunity to coach at HC. Easy league, good overall basketball tradition, decent facility, and a significant raise in pay compared to the lower Divisions.
It's identifying the right guy.....enthusiastic and young, but with head coaching experience at a lower level with a track record of success.....the Chesney profile.
The right coach could turn this program into a winner in three years. There's not a doubt in my mind.
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Post by longsuffering on Jan 25, 2022 10:57:51 GMT -5
Rather than put BN in front of a firing squad after 2 1/2 years under extremely difficult circumstances I have some thoughts, probably overly simplistic. Obviously, as per routine, post season sit down with the young coach. Offer to support. Ask what he believes he needs within the parameters of HC admissions at this time. (Complaining about HC admissions is off the mark. After all we are competing against colleges with similar or higher admissions standards.) He is a young coach. Would an experienced older possibly retired coach to serve as an assistant help? Hire sort of an eminence grise to advise and guide as to recruiting, type of play and coaching up - someone similar to a Tex Winter or Johnny Bach assistants to the relatively young Phil Jackson(He was a success with the Albany Patroons but had no prior NBA head coaching experience.) Would other changes to help in recruiting a group with complementary talents be advisable? I'm sure there are other changes which could be offered by those more knowledgeable than me. I honestly believe firing BN as terrible as the teams have been would hurt HC. Of course,if he of his own accord would amicably leave the school to accept a position at another school that would be a more desirable outcome. Nonetheless, HC would still face the problem of hiring a new head coach with his own team of assistants. Just some thoughts. I think you hit on some really good points. Nelson should have had an experienced coach along side him from the jump. Initially, I liked the new staff and felt the gains on the recruiting trail were paying off. Reaching out to RJ Evans I thought was an excellent move. With that said, they lacked head coaching experience. Perhaps that is down to the budget. On a side note, I feel for fellow alum RJ. I have on pretty good authority that he'd love to be the head guy at HC someday and considers it a 'dream opportunity'. You are right, an experienced former head coach on the bench in retrospect might be a missed opportunity. But I doubt that support was denied Nelson by HC as long as the experienced former head coach was realistic in salary expectations. We didn't have an experienced AD to require this when he hired an inexperienced head coach. And if we hire a new coach this year it will be our current AD's first ever hire as BN was MB's. Hopefully Kit reads Crossports and benefits from the combined centuries of experience available for free here.
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Post by Tom on Jan 25, 2022 11:17:13 GMT -5
Why would any competent, successful coach in his right mind take the job at HC? We are constantly changing coaches after a few years - SK, fired; MB, let go; BC, did retire; And now BN. Is there a time frame when it is acceptable replace a coach that is not meeting expectations? Coach Kearney - You are correct. That was fast and made HC look bad. A coach might think twice about walking in that situation. I'm not saying that was a mistake. From everything I've heard and seen, Coach Kearney was not as prepared to run a college program as any other HC head basketball coach. Still it leads to the revolving door perception Coach Brown - 5 years. Fired with one year remaining on his extended contract. Managed to reach the semis of the conference tournament once in those 5 years. Year 4 looked like there were signs of progress. I thought the big step backwards in year 5 after only losing one senior (albeit a really good one) sealed his fate Year 4 suddenly looked more like an anomaly than a step along the road of progress. You don't want to look like a revolving door, but at some point, you should be able to expect results. Was 5 years too short a time frame to give Coach Brown a fair shot? If not, how many more years before you decide that the current path only leads to mediocrity? On a minor tangent, many schools are perfectly happy with a clean but mediocre program. Is that the goal HC is striving for? Coach Carmody - retired after 4 years. Should have no bearing on any perception that HC is a revolving door Coach Nelson - Still here after 2 1/2 years. Poor does not describe the results. Year 2 was a step up from year 1. Year 3 has been a step backwards. Some extraordinary circumstances. COVID and the half season last year affected everyone, but reasonable to think it would be more harmful to an extremely young, rebuilding team. The exodus of almost everyone is a huge. Many here don't think that it's a mitigating circumstance because they blame Coach Nelson for the exodus. Maybe fair. Maybe not. If we assume that it's too soon to call the Nelson experiment a failure, how much time is fair. Was the 5 year Coach Brown plan enough? I agree stability is important and any coach should be given a fair chance. I'm not putting a hard time on anything, but there is a point where stably bad isn't good enough
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