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Post by WCHC Sports on Jan 26, 2022 14:55:34 GMT -5
Ortiz a first-ballot hall of famer? I mean, he was really good, but was he prolific? You can make the case for him, I can make the case against him, but I'm not so against him getting in... If Bonds and Clemens are not in for drug suspicion or fugazy tests, then Ortiz should not be in for drug suspicion or fugazy tests... because Bonds and Clemens are 1.5 - 3x the player Ortiz was. I'll go along with you on all of this but wouldn't you agree that a guy who never won an MVP ought not have been named on every ballot but one in his first year of eligibility. (And I don't have a problem with that guy being in the Hall either.) I can argue that he should have won one, but he had more championships than others on the ballot, and was a better-rounded player by far than the recently-elected.
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Post by bfoley82 on Jan 26, 2022 15:44:32 GMT -5
Does indicted mean guilty? No In this context it does suggest that there was evidence other than the Mitchell report. In Clemens case, his trainer saying that he injected Clemens And Ortiz's trainer was the same guy that trained ARod. Remember the Twins gave up on him at age 27 and all of a sudden, Ortiz becomes the best left handed power hitter in the game. Just very suspicious
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 26, 2022 16:01:21 GMT -5
Pete Rose is getting more attention from me now than he deserves but hopefully my last observation: He said that he never bet against his own team but I never saw or read that the investigation ever confirmed that. Not sure how deep the investigation went because their threshold is what Tom said "Bet on baseball, you're out. Doesn't matter who you bet for or against."
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Post by hc1998 on Jan 27, 2022 8:04:38 GMT -5
Pete Rose is getting more attention from me now than he deserves but hopefully my last observation: He said that he never bet against his own team but I never saw or read that the investigation ever confirmed that. Not sure how deep the investigation went because their threshold is what Tom said "Bet on baseball, you're out. Doesn't matter who you bet for or against." I believe it was established, not in the initial investigation but when his notebook turned up years later, that he technically never bet against his own team, but one year (I think the year the allegations surfaced, so it was only a partial year) he bet on them every game except for 4...the 4 he didn't bet were started by Bill Gullickson (wise move to lay off Pete), and not surprisingly they went 0-4. Could have been a windfall for his bookies those days
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 27, 2022 10:46:37 GMT -5
Any Providence/Rhode Island writers (ProJo?) in the voting group? Clemmons wasn't likely getting his/their vote with nothing to do with baseball or steroids. He was perceived as stiffing the state. Of course, the blame should also go to state officials but they weren't being considered for the HOF. (Note my opening for rf1! ) "Steroids" in a nutshell has become just one more roadblock to getting into the HOF if the writers don't like you. I'm sick of hearing the stupid arguments "oh well this guy was a Hall of Famer before he started taking steroids"; "this guy was on the list of 103 but wasn't named in the Mitchell report"; "this guys statistical trajectory shows that he didn't use steroids or if he did, he didn't benefit from them". It all boils down to the fact that the media and writers, because of the PED cloud, now have the ability to create silly straw man arguments as to why they voted for this guy but not another guy. Bonds was a prick to the media his entire career. And now he's paying the price. Clemens is an interesting one. Up until the mid-2000's, he seemed to be well-revered by the mainstream sports media. He sort of had the quiet, blue-collar, down-on-the-farm family man persona. And even the brash Jose Canseco, who took no prisoners in his book "Juiced", indicated that he was the only player he knew of that didn't cheat on his wife on the road. I think the fact that Clemens turtled and went into hiding when confronted about PED use was the death knell to his enshrinement. I'm convinced that if his friend Andy Pettitte had a sure-fire HOF resume, he'd be in because of the way he professionally handled getting caught using HGH during his time with the Astros.
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Post by longsuffering on Jan 27, 2022 12:27:55 GMT -5
Any Providence/Rhode Island writers (ProJo?) in the voting group? Clemmons wasn't likely getting his/their vote with nothing to do with baseball or steroids. He was perceived as stiffing the state. Of course, the blame should also go to state officials but they weren't being considered for the HOF. (Note my opening for rf1! ) "Steroids" in a nutshell has become just one more roadblock to getting into the HOF if the writers don't like you. I'm sick of hearing the stupid arguments "oh well this guy was a Hall of Famer before he started taking steroids"; "this guy was on the list of 103 but wasn't named in the Mitchell report"; "this guys statistical trajectory shows that he didn't use steroids or if he did, he didn't benefit from them". It all boils down to the fact that the media and writers, because of the PED cloud, now have the ability to create silly straw man arguments as to why they voted for this guy but not another guy. Bonds was a prick to the media his entire career. And now he's paying the price. Clemens is an interesting one. Up until the mid-2000's, he seemed to be well-revered by the mainstream sports media. He sort of had the quiet, blue-collar, down-on-the-farm family man persona. And even the brash Jose Canseco, who took no prisoners in his book "Juiced", indicated that he was the only player he knew of that didn't cheat on his wife on the road. I think the fact that Clemens turtled and went into hiding when confronted about PED use was the death knell to his enshrinement. I'm convinced that if his friend Andy Pettitte had a sure-fire HOF resume, he'd be in because of the way he professionally handled getting caught using HGH during his time with the Astros. Clemens was a quiet, blue collar down on the farm family man ... who complained when the Red Sox had a staffing shortage and he had to carry his own luggage on the road. The Boston Media skewered him for that and also speculated if he gave his all for the Red Sox at the end of his tenure before leaving for Toronto. I think he drifted into entitled arrogance mid career and then maybe reverted back to the country boy with a good attitude by the time he reached New York. The Red Sox management at that time could have been part of the problem. Roger and Debby Clemens and family lived in Framingham when he was with the Red Sox and I did hear second or third hand from someone who lived in their neighborhood that Debby was/is a sweetheart and the family was active in the neighborhood.
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Post by hc1998 on Jan 27, 2022 14:49:19 GMT -5
Anybody ask Mindy McCready to verify?
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Post by beaven302 on Jan 27, 2022 17:52:36 GMT -5
Big Papi belongs. One of the great clutch players in history in any American sport. Bonds & Clemens had HoF numbers before any hint of their using steroids. Bonds was on his way to the Hall until he lost it over Sosa & Mark McGuire getting all the publicity for their steroid fueled home run derby. I I guess he figured if them, why not me, I'm a far better player than they are. Of course Bonds' rationale was faulty. He is a cynical SOB. But, although I'm not and admirers of both Bonds & Clemens they belong in the Hall. Add Alex, Schilling to my list. Also, eventually Pete Rose will enter the Hall in memoriam. The Hall could add an asterisk to each describing their rules violations. As to Sosa & Manny I don't have enough info to form an opinion. Of note, there are plenty of questionable/bad characters , racists/pill poppers (some of which were illegal) and the like who are in the Hall because they were great ball players. ------ From a Disgruntled Yankees Fan. Big Papi definitely belongs. In addition to being a great player, he was a Boston institution. I recently rewatched the Mark Wahlberg film on the marathon bombing, which at its conclusion shows Big Papi addressing the crowd at Fenway Park.
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 27, 2022 17:59:35 GMT -5
His dependable performances in the clutch drove me crazy (as a Yankee fan). He does belong in the HoF and his election was not in doubt because of the way the media treated him throughout his career. They downplayed the possibility off PEDs when the issue was raised by others.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 28, 2022 8:35:47 GMT -5
His dependable performances in the clutch drove me crazy (as a Yankee fan). He does belong in the HoF and his election was not in doubt because of the way the media treated him throughout his career. They downplayed the possibility off PEDs when the issue was raised by others. This is absolutely right. Alex Rodriguez is currently at 34% of the HOF vote. Alex was despised by the media, even his own hometown media in New York when he was here, throughout the last 2/3 of his playing career. Joe Torre slandered him in his book, the beloved captain Jeter feuded with him. But post-playing career, Alex has become a darling -- his real personality is able to shine through when you see him on the air as opposed to when you read about him in the New York tabloids in the past. You wonder if down the road, some of the older writers give way to a younger generation that Alex will ever stand a chance. I think if he stays active in the media, and who knows maybe gets back into the game as a bench coach or eventually manager, he'll have a shot on that new "legacy ballot" or whatever it is called that helped Harold Baines get in. Alex' biggest hurtle is the fact that he got "busted" twice despite never failing an MLB drug test after 2003. A-Rod was one of the players who tested positive during "anonymous" testing in 2003. The list of 103 players who tested + that year was obviously leaked in 2009...specifically because someone on the inside wanted to expose Alex. He handled that situation very professionally and admitted to PED use, confirming the positive result. What was strange is that when Alex was somehow linked to HGH shipments in 2014, the 2003 test was used against him and he was suspended as a "repeat offender", losing 162 games. NY Crusader opinion on Alex Rodriguez -- If I were a writer I would not vote for him right now, and would continue to vote no until he fell off ballot. The HGH case, which took place nearly a decade after MLB drug policies were enforced, is a deal-breaker for me. I do believe that if he continues to contribute to the game as a broadcaster, commentator or coach one day, a "back door" will open for him. Either he can get in as a contributor to the game or will get in like Baines did in 20 years. Currently, the guys I would vote "no" for specifically due to PED use would be Manny Ramirez, Alex Rodriguez, Rafael Palmeiro and eventually Robinson Cano, if his #s are even HOF worthy. All guys who were caught using PEDs twice, or in Palmeiro's case was caught weeks after screaming lies in the halls of Congress.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 28, 2022 8:45:00 GMT -5
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Post by mm67 on Jan 28, 2022 8:55:11 GMT -5
Please clarify: In 2003 PEDS were illegal according to law but their use was not against the rules of baseball?
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Post by alum on Jan 28, 2022 9:06:33 GMT -5
I am sure that there are plenty of Yankee fans who don't like Ortiz. I am that way about Jeter who should have volunteered to play third base when ARod came to town. His unwillingness to do that gives me a reason to treat him as a selfish overrated guy.
My distate for Jeter probably stems from the late 90s/early 00s Nomar v. Jeter debate. I can still hear my Yankee fan brother in law telling me that none of it mattered because the Yankees won four world championships during that era.
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Post by mm67 on Jan 28, 2022 9:20:08 GMT -5
Nomar who?
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Post by Tom on Jan 28, 2022 9:28:00 GMT -5
Please clarify: In 2003 PEDS were illegal according to law but their use was not against the rules of baseball? Steroids were illegal before they were against the rules of baseball. I think by 2003 they were also against the rules of baseball, but it was a rule with no teeth. No testing and no prescribed penalty for the offense. I also think that steroids were against the rules of baseball before things like HGH and other PED's were added to the banned substance list.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 28, 2022 9:46:17 GMT -5
Please clarify: In 2003 PEDS were illegal according to law but their use was not against the rules of baseball? Yes, for the most part. I don't know the exact list of federally banned substances but most of the PEDs that guys got caught using would have been illegal to use, with or without the presence of an MLB drug testing policy. There may be some legal PEDs that MLB still bans and tests for but I'm by no means an expert on that, so not sure.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 28, 2022 9:51:03 GMT -5
I am sure that there are plenty of Yankee fans who don't like Ortiz. I am that way about Jeter who should have volunteered to play third base when ARod came to town. His unwillingness to do that gives me a reason to treat him as a selfish overrated guy. My distate for Jeter probably stems from the late 90s/early 00s Nomar v. Jeter debate. I can still hear my Yankee fan brother in law telling me that none of it mattered because the Yankees won four world championships during that era. Nomar was definitely a better overall player than Jeter for about from about 1997 to 2003. I remember saying around that time that Jeter was the 4th best SS in baseball -- after A-Rod, Nomar and Miguel Tejada. And yes Jeter should've volunteered to play either 2nd or 3rd base. I think Jeter would've been better at 2nd because he was awful at going to his left and much stronger going to his right, a ala the "Jeter jump throws" from the hole (i.e. he was terrible at fielding balls up the middle as a SS but would have been great at it if playing 2B). Post mortem, A-Rod wound up being a phenomenal third baseman defensively so the defensive alignment worked out just fine for the Yankees in the end.
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Post by longsuffering on Jan 28, 2022 11:57:28 GMT -5
"Nomah is bettah" used to be a popular phrase in New England. Until Nomar fell off a cliff. One of the steeper drop offs of a HOF bound player evah.
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Post by mm67 on Jan 28, 2022 12:16:31 GMT -5
Jeter & Who? . Hall of Fame voters have settled the question.
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Post by Tom on Jan 28, 2022 12:47:51 GMT -5
Jeter & Who? . Hall of Fame voters have settled the question. I agree with that statement albeit from a slightly pro-Boston bias. Jeter played at a high level for another decade after 2003. Nomar was pretty unremarkable after that. The Hall recognizes sustained excellence not term excellence
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 28, 2022 13:49:40 GMT -5
Nomar clearly fell off after MLB started testing for PEDs. I hate guessing and speculating but chance that either a) is body broke down as a result of steroid use or b) broke down when he had to wean off of the PEDs. We'll never know for sure. Nomar was on the list of players who allegedly tested positive in 2003 and never violated MLB testing protocol for the remainder of his career. After the deadline deal to the Cubs in 2004, Garciaparra was never the same player but had some moments here and there and was a fairly serviceable utility man with the Dodgers and A's until about 2010 if I recall. He was never able to play a full season and was constantly on and off the DL.
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Post by alum on Jan 28, 2022 14:34:32 GMT -5
Nomar clearly fell off after MLB started testing for PEDs. I hate guessing and speculating but chance that either a) is body broke down as a result of steroid use or b) broke down when he had to wean off of the PEDs. We'll never know for sure. Nomar was on the list of players who allegedly tested positive in 2003 and never violated MLB testing protocol for the remainder of his career. After the deadline deal to the Cubs in 2004, Garciaparra was never the same player but had some moments here and there and was a fairly serviceable utility man with the Dodgers and A's until about 2010 if I recall. He was never able to play a full season and was constantly on and off the DL. I am certain that I was not the only New England father to teach his preschoolers to say "Nomar Garciappara" and to have them show it off as a party trick. He was such a big deal, until suddenly he wasn't. I suppose if Joe Castiglione hadn't gotten to say "Can you believe it?" that fall, we would have argued about that trade forever.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jan 28, 2022 14:56:22 GMT -5
Nomar clearly fell off after MLB started testing for PEDs. I hate guessing and speculating but chance that either a) is body broke down as a result of steroid use or b) broke down when he had to wean off of the PEDs. We'll never know for sure. Nomar was on the list of players who allegedly tested positive in 2003 and never violated MLB testing protocol for the remainder of his career. After the deadline deal to the Cubs in 2004, Garciaparra was never the same player but had some moments here and there and was a fairly serviceable utility man with the Dodgers and A's until about 2010 if I recall. He was never able to play a full season and was constantly on and off the DL. I am certain that I was not the only New England father to teach his preschoolers to say "Nomar Garciappara" and to have them show it off as a party trick. He was such a big deal, until suddenly he wasn't. I suppose if Joe Castiglione hadn't gotten to say "Can you believe it?" that fall, we would have argued about that trade forever. Funny story about that. My mom has worked in college financial aid for years (Fordham until 2018 and now Sarah Lawrence College) but while we were growing up she did some additional part time work teaching Pre-K. In 2004 she had a 4-year old in her class whose dad was a big Red Sox fan. The kid had a Garciaparra jersey and he was his favorite player. Evidently, the parents didn't want to break the trade deadline news to their son who was obsessed with Nomar. So, during that World Series run, when the kid would talk about the Red Sox, the teachers would ask who his favorite player was. And he would always emphatically respond "Nomar!!". I guess between being out of market and having an early bedtime, the kid never noticed that Garciaparra wasn't on the team. Speaking of the Red Sox teams around that time, after all these years and 4 championships now, I still think the best "murderers row" the Red Sox had in my lifetime as a fan was in 2001-2002 when they had Nomar-Manny-Everett hitting 3-4-5.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 1, 2022 14:42:42 GMT -5
Re: Andy Pettite’s credentials—I believe he is the only pitcher in baseball history who (1) won 200 or more games and (2) never had a losing season.
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Post by hchoops on Feb 1, 2022 15:00:25 GMT -5
I'll go along with you on all of this but wouldn't you agree that a guy who never won an MVP ought not have been named on every ballot but one in his first year of eligibility. (And I don't have a problem with that guy being in the Hall either.) I can argue that he should have won one, but he had more championships than others on the ballot, and was a better-rounded player by far than the recently-elected. Better rounded ? He very rarely played one half of the sport
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