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Post by bringbackcaro on Feb 9, 2022 16:45:20 GMT -5
-Better brand, name recognition with recruits (driven by Basketball, but still applies) -Relaxed academic requirements -Full load of scholarships -Redshirting -Better conference If the CAA is anonymous, what is the pL? Completely Invisible? There are very few paths for Chesney to go from HC to a 1-A Head Coaching job -- winning an FCS championship (or coming close) is one of those paths. Villanova has proven that they can get there, and Holy Cross is miles away. Again, nothing against HC, Chesney, etc. but that's just where we are today. Go Cross Go!! Then the athletic directors in 1-A schools are clueless if they cannot see what Bob Chesney has accomplished at everyplace where he has coached 131 1-A teams -65 Power 5 teams + Notre Dame (he ain't getting one of those jobs HC) -23 American & Mountain West teams (he ain't getting one of those jobs from HC) =43 jobs remaining How many of those 43 jobs open each year? Taking it another step, of those 43, the MAC and Independent UCONN & UMASS (dumpster fires) are the only ones that make any sense for Chesney from a geographical perspective given that he has spent his entire career int he Northeast. That leaves 14 schools. One MAC school had an opening this year -- Akron. They hired Joe Moorhead, who has been a head coach in the SEC and was an Offensive Coordinator at Penn State.& Oregon (in addition to having more success than Chesney in the pL). For 1-A athletic directors and fan bases, that resume is light years ahead of having success at Holy Cross, Assumption, and Salve Regina. I know you like to live in your Chesney/HC bubble, but there is really a lack of perspective to think we are at risk of losing Chesney to a 1-A job unless he turns us into a perennial top 5-10 team and is consistently challenging for National Championships.
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Post by dharry13 on Feb 9, 2022 16:54:11 GMT -5
BBC - that's all a good analysis and a very fair point. But it's not unheard of. Current coach at Eastern Michigan was coach before at Drake. It happens.
I agree - it's unlikely and the best course of action for him is going CAA first then jumping to the MAC. But honestly - who knows. And frankly - I don't care at the current moment.
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Post by efg72 on Feb 9, 2022 17:05:01 GMT -5
Willing to bet his new total compensation is as high as mostCAA jobs -in other words so this doesn’t get revisited every time there is an opening in the CAA
Sit back and be glad we have a few good to outstanding coaches - -Always good to have a product others want as their own.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 9, 2022 17:55:51 GMT -5
For those who haven't already seen this (maybe on another thread?), this is an exciting time to be a Holy Cross player, assistant coach, alumnus, fan or administrator of Holy Cross football (maybe even some faculty?). I have to say that Bob Chesney is one charismatic, dynamic guy and it's no wonder how he has been able to close the deal on some top-notch recruits: www.givecampus.com/schools/CollegeoftheHolyCross/videos/chesneyhughesinterview
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 9, 2022 19:23:11 GMT -5
Then the athletic directors in 1-A schools are clueless if they cannot see what Bob Chesney has accomplished at everyplace where he has coached 131 1-A teams -65 Power 5 teams + Notre Dame (he ain't getting one of those jobs HC) -23 American & Mountain West teams (he ain't getting one of those jobs from HC) =43 jobs remaining How many of those 43 jobs open each year? Taking it another step, of those 43, the MAC and Independent UCONN & UMASS (dumpster fires) are the only ones that make any sense for Chesney from a geographical perspective given that he has spent his entire career int he Northeast. That leaves 14 schools. One MAC school had an opening this year -- Akron. They hired Joe Moorhead, who has been a head coach in the SEC and was an Offensive Coordinator at Penn State.& Oregon (in addition to having more success than Chesney in the pL). For 1-A athletic directors and fan bases, that resume is light years ahead of having success at Holy Cross, Assumption, and Salve Regina. I know you like to live in your Chesney/HC bubble, but there is really a lack of perspective to think we are at risk of losing Chesney to a 1-A job unless he turns us into a perennial top 5-10 team and is consistently challenging for National Championships. Thank you for being such a reliable source of entertainment. Your unfounded confidence in the value of your pronouncements is just breathtaking.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 9, 2022 19:38:31 GMT -5
AD Hughes said it best, "...absolutely over the moon..."
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Post by hc87 on Feb 9, 2022 21:49:49 GMT -5
That said, how did we lose momentum when Villanova could eliminate/club football; come back; and win a national championship? Very simply, by eliminating football scholarships. We easily defeated Villanova in 1987 (39-6) and 1989 (38-17), the last time these two fine institutions played during the regular season. They "passed" us in the ensuing decades when they solidified their program and we mostly let our's linger in non-scholarship PL mediocrity. We are thankfully back to being at a near equal footing with them. We'll nevah know, but I'll go to my grave thinking we would have won a national championship in 1987 if we were allowed to participate in the playoffs then.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 9, 2022 21:56:27 GMT -5
That said, how did we lose momentum when Villanova could eliminate/club football; come back; and win a national championship? Very simply, by eliminating football scholarships. We easily defeated Villanova in 1987 (39-6) and 1989 (38-17), the last time these two fine institutions played during the regular season. They "passed" us in the ensuing decades when they solidified their program and we mostly let our's linger in non-scholarship PL mediocrity. We are thankfully back to being at a near equal footing with them. We'll nevah know, but I'll go to my grave thinking we would have won a national championship in 1987 if we were allowed to participate in the playoffs then. The legend of Gordie would be even bigger.
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Post by hc87 on Feb 9, 2022 22:07:03 GMT -5
Very simply, by eliminating football scholarships. We easily defeated Villanova in 1987 (39-6) and 1989 (38-17), the last time these two fine institutions played during the regular season. They "passed" us in the ensuing decades when they solidified their program and we mostly let our's linger in non-scholarship PL mediocrity. We are thankfully back to being at a near equal footing with them. We'll nevah know, but I'll go to my grave thinking we would have won a national championship in 1987 if we were allowed to participate in the playoffs then. The legend of Gordie would be even bigger. Truly a shame that '87 team was denied playing both BC and being in the playoffs. Thirty-five years later, I'm still not quite ovah it.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 9, 2022 22:10:28 GMT -5
The legend of Gordie would be even bigger. Truly a shame that '87 team was denied playing both BC and being in the playoffs. Thirty-five years later, I'm still not quite ovah it. A decision not to compete in the NCAA tournament that will live in infamy. Absolutely no logic to hanging a ten foot 1947 banner in direct line of the camera at the Hart and walking away from a weekend only NCAA tournament with no missed class time.
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Post by hc87 on Feb 9, 2022 22:18:11 GMT -5
Truly a shame that '87 team was denied playing both BC and being in the playoffs. Thirty-five years later, I'm still not quite ovah it. A decision that will live in infamy. We made some great athletic decisions in that time-frame huh???
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 9, 2022 22:20:37 GMT -5
Yes but Chesney won't be shackled like Duff was. The best is yet to come.
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Post by hc87 on Feb 9, 2022 22:28:37 GMT -5
Agreed....without question, I am probably as excited for a HC team since maybe the Perry, Potter, Vicens et al hoop teams.
No slight on the RW and Duffner teams, but those teams really didn't have the chance or opportunity to vie for a national title like I believe Chesney teams may be doing moving forward.
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Post by bfoley82 on Feb 10, 2022 1:16:08 GMT -5
Colgate lost in the national championship game in 2003, and reached the quarters in 2015 and 2018, so going deep into the playoffs is not a mountain too high for a PL team. Colgate making that game is 19 years ago now. Ancient history.....
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Post by hcpride on Feb 10, 2022 1:33:40 GMT -5
I am very optimistic regarding our coach and team. We may very well be aiming for the very top of FCS. That said…
Thinking of that ‘83 HC team (at one point ranked #1 in the country) we had a few future NFL draftees, a talented QB in Muldoon, and one of the top RB’s in all of 1-AA in Fenerty. Colgate (#2 in the country when we beat them) was led by future NFL draftees RB Richie Erenberg and QB Steve Calabria.
If it takes the same amount of talent to get to the very top of FCS rankings nowadays we may still have a ways to go.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 10, 2022 7:24:10 GMT -5
'87? Can't remember back that far. I choose to live in and enjoy the moment. No need to find reasons to make oneself miserable by wallowing discontentedly in the triumphs of the past, turning the sweet lemonade of the late '80's into bitter lemons. Who knows what alums forty years in the future will write about this era? And, who cares?
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Post by HC92 on Feb 10, 2022 7:40:15 GMT -5
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Post by hcpride on Feb 10, 2022 7:51:04 GMT -5
There definitely are many similarities between Carter '83 and Chesney now. That is one reason I fully supported Chesney's hire here on Crossports. One enormous and obvious difference regarding the respective teams is summed up in this quote in the article: Holy Cross is the No. 1-ranked Division I-AA team in the nation ...
We were simply loaded with talent in '83...in order to hit the top of FCS we're going to have to land/develop a significant number of kids who would be absolute stars in the CAA. There is an open question as to whether that can be done within the confines of the PL.
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Post by joe on Feb 10, 2022 8:08:17 GMT -5
From the kid’s point of view, HC and CAA almost the same level of competitiveness. Big difference is that at HC much higher chance of getting 4 championship rings and 4 cracks at the NCAA tournament. HC is in a good spot at the moment and using PL membership smartly. Only way that’s possible is to be on another level than the rest of the league. A daunting task but one Chesney clearly has achieved.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 10, 2022 9:15:50 GMT -5
Hopefully, More PL programs will up their competitiveness while competing within PL rules. Other PL schools have competed at a high level. It can be done.
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Post by midwestsader05 on Feb 10, 2022 10:14:32 GMT -5
While I'm encouraging everyone to refocus on our current team and the upcoming 2022 season, I think I can provide some clarity on the evolution of the FCS and PL since 2000.
Let's start with expectations, if you look back at the "non (official) scholarship" era of the PL in the first half of this century, there were plenty of PL champs that went on to perform very admirably in the playoffs with several wins (Lehigh 4 wins from 2000-2011, Fordham 2002 etc.)
Colgate 2003 - As someone who played against this team (and led them 38-31 in the 4th Quarter with one 4th down stop away from winning the game, but as was typical to this era couldn't close it out), this was NOT the equivalent of a modern day "non-scholly" Pioneer league champ making it to the FCS National Championship. As a matter of fact, sports journalists were dumbfounded how a team from a league "w/o scholarships" could roll into the National championship at 15-0. I'm almost certain it was USA Today that did an expose on what was really going on here. They're investigation and article found that if you aggregated all of the "grant" money (athletic/academic/financial) for Colgate football, it equated to ~55 full scholarships. While not 63, it was now more understandable how a team could compete and beat these other FCS programs. That offense was loaded with talent (RB Jamal Branch - Payton award winner & played several years in the NFL as did their TE, another noteworthy name was their All-PL LB Tem Lukabu who is now the DC at Boston College and likely a FBS Head Coach in the next couple years.)
So what's changed in the past decade? First off, there is a lot more parity across all D-1 college football (both FBS and FCS) with obvious FBS exceptions of Bama, Georgia and Clemson and NDSU & JMU in FCS. With SO many more good HS players out there, the gap between Group of 5 FBS and the top 3-4 FCS conferences has also narrowed. As for the PL, reinstated official athletic scholarships makes recruiting a bit more orderly and somewhat transparent, however as many have pointed out exhaustively, with the Big 3 limitations (3 fewer schollys, AI and redshirting restrictions) the PL has not made gains from top to bottom against other conferences. We are essentially where we were as a league in 2000. The top 1-2 teams in any given season are really good FCS programs and are quite capable of finishing in the Top 20 of a season's final rankings. The bottom half of the league is really poor on a national level.
What does this mean for HC Football going forward? Given what we have accomplished, I think a realistic expectation is to be a consistent Top 10-15 program which means getting to the FCS quarterfinals (Villanova finished the 2021 rankings at #8) It will take a remarkably special team/season to advance to the Semis or beyond. I do LOVE the mentality that a National Championship is a realistic standard to be achieved. In talking to current players, they genuinely BELIEVE THIS. There are no longer MORAL victories. They were pissed and devastated after the loss to Nova even though many of us were proud of their performance. We kicked their ass for 2 1/2 quarters and the W was right there for the taking.
This 2022 squad has what it will take (at least on paper) to take it to next level.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 10, 2022 10:36:11 GMT -5
While I'm encouraging everyone to refocus on our current team and the upcoming 2022 season, I think I can provide some clarity on the evolution of the FCS and PL since 2000. Let's start with expectations, if you look back at the "non (official) scholarship" era of the PL in the first half of this century, there were plenty of PL champs that went on to perform very admirably in the playoffs with several wins (Lehigh 4 wins from 2000-2011, Fordham 2002 etc.) Colgate 2003 - As someone who played against this team (and led them 38-31 in the 4th Quarter with one 4th down stop away from winning the game, but as was typical to this era couldn't close it out), this was NOT the equivalent of a modern day "non-scholly" Pioneer league champ making it to the FCS National Championship. As a matter of fact, sports journalists were dumbfounded how a team from a league "w/o scholarships" could roll into the National championship at 15-0. I'm almost certain it was USA Today that did an expose on what was really going on here. They're investigation and article found that if you aggregated all of the "grant" money (athletic/academic/financial) for Colgate football, it equated to ~55 full scholarships. While not 63, it was now more understandable how a team could compete and beat these other FCS programs. That offense was loaded with talent (RB Jamal Branch - Payton award winner & played several years in the NFL as did their TE, another noteworthy name was their All-PL LB Tem Lukabu who is now the DC at Boston College and likely a FBS Head Coach in the next couple years.) So what's changed in the past decade? First off, there is a lot more parity across all D-1 college football (both FBS and FCS) with obvious FBS exceptions of Bama, Georgia and Clemson and NDSU & JMU in FCS. With SO many more good HS players out there, the gap between Group of 5 FBS and the top 3-4 FCS conferences has also narrowed. As for the PL, reinstated official athletic scholarships makes recruiting a bit more orderly and somewhat transparent, however as many have pointed out exhaustively, with the Big 3 limitations (3 fewer schollys, AI and redshirting restrictions) the PL has not made gains from top to bottom against other conferences. We are essentially where we were as a league in 2000. The top 1-2 teams in any given season are really good FCS programs and are quite capable of finishing in the Top 20 of a season's final rankings. The bottom half of the league is really poor on a national level. What does this mean for HC Football going forward? Given what we have accomplished, I think a realistic expectation is to be a consistent Top 10-15 program which means getting to the FCS quarterfinals (Villanova finished the 2021 rankings at #8) It will take a remarkably special team/season to advance to the Semis or beyond. I do LOVE the mentality that a National Championship is a realistic standard to be achieved. In talking to current players, they genuinely BELIEVE THIS. There are no longer MORAL victories. They were pissed and devastated after the loss to Nova even though many of us were proud of their performance. We kicked their ass for 2 1/2 quarters and the W was right there for the taking. This 2022 squad has what it will take (at least on paper) to take it to next level. Currently HC is dominant. Hopefully there will be others in the PL -Colgate, Lehigh, FU, Bucknell , G-Town Whoi will on a rotating basis will be able to compete at the highest level of the FCS. Who knows, maybe, the PL will be an athletic & academic powerhouse.
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Post by gks on Feb 10, 2022 10:55:03 GMT -5
While I'm encouraging everyone to refocus on our current team and the upcoming 2022 season, I think I can provide some clarity on the evolution of the FCS and PL since 2000. Let's start with expectations, if you look back at the "non (official) scholarship" era of the PL in the first half of this century, there were plenty of PL champs that went on to perform very admirably in the playoffs with several wins (Lehigh 4 wins from 2000-2011, Fordham 2002 etc.) Colgate 2003 - As someone who played against this team (and led them 38-31 in the 4th Quarter with one 4th down stop away from winning the game, but as was typical to this era couldn't close it out), this was NOT the equivalent of a modern day "non-scholly" Pioneer league champ making it to the FCS National Championship. As a matter of fact, sports journalists were dumbfounded how a team from a league "w/o scholarships" could roll into the National championship at 15-0. I'm almost certain it was USA Today that did an expose on what was really going on here. They're investigation and article found that if you aggregated all of the "grant" money (athletic/academic/financial) for Colgate football, it equated to ~55 full scholarships. While not 63, it was now more understandable how a team could compete and beat these other FCS programs. That offense was loaded with talent (RB Jamal Branch - Payton award winner & played several years in the NFL as did their TE, another noteworthy name was their All-PL LB Tem Lukabu who is now the DC at Boston College and likely a FBS Head Coach in the next couple years.) So what's changed in the past decade? First off, there is a lot more parity across all D-1 college football (both FBS and FCS) with obvious FBS exceptions of Bama, Georgia and Clemson and NDSU & JMU in FCS. With SO many more good HS players out there, the gap between Group of 5 FBS and the top 3-4 FCS conferences has also narrowed. As for the PL, reinstated official athletic scholarships makes recruiting a bit more orderly and somewhat transparent, however as many have pointed out exhaustively, with the Big 3 limitations (3 fewer schollys, AI and redshirting restrictions) the PL has not made gains from top to bottom against other conferences. We are essentially where we were as a league in 2000. The top 1-2 teams in any given season are really good FCS programs and are quite capable of finishing in the Top 20 of a season's final rankings. The bottom half of the league is really poor on a national level. What does this mean for HC Football going forward? Given what we have accomplished, I think a realistic expectation is to be a consistent Top 10-15 program which means getting to the FCS quarterfinals (Villanova finished the 2021 rankings at #8) It will take a remarkably special team/season to advance to the Semis or beyond. I do LOVE the mentality that a National Championship is a realistic standard to be achieved. In talking to current players, they genuinely BELIEVE THIS. There are no longer MORAL victories. They were pissed and devastated after the loss to Nova even though many of us were proud of their performance. We kicked their ass for 2 1/2 quarters and the W was right there for the taking. This 2022 squad has what it will take (at least on paper) to take it to next level. That final 2003 game vs. Colgate was one of the best games at Fitton of the last 20 years. I have never seen a league that handcuffs itself more than the Patriot League. I could care less about the rest of the league. I hope HC steamrolls and demoralizes every other team in this league. At this point I'm sure Chesney and the team see the PL as a necessary evil. Schedule a powerhouse non-league schedule. Forget the Ivies. Rest of the country thinks their football is meaningless and those games do nothing when it comes to FCS playoff seedings. Is it September yet?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 10, 2022 12:42:56 GMT -5
Comparing what the PL and the Ivies pay football coaches
This is a bit of solve for x, but from the Title IX reports, one can subtract operating expenses from total expenses for all the schools below, and one can subtract scholarship expenses for the two Patriot League schools and two CAA schools below. Scholarship expenses were calculated as $4,000,000, 60 x $67,000 for PL, and $4,200,000 for CAA schools (63 scollies). The Ivies report $0 in financial aid.
The values are for 2017-18. (The 2018-19 dataset at Dept. of Education is corrupted and won't download. 2019-20 expenses are reduced because of COVID. 2020-2021 expenses are not available and will also be affected by COVID.)
Total expenses for football recruiting and coaches' compensation in 2017-18.
Colgate: $1.505M Holy Cross: $1.578M Dartmouth: $2.583M Harvard: $2.426M Princeton: $2.604M Richmond: $1.792M Villanova: $1.652M
It would appear that the three Ivy schools above paid their football coaches between $600,000 and $800,000 more than HC and Colgate paid. The Ivies have higher recruiting expenses across the board, but these are not broken down by sport.
So when Marcus Blossom sets a goal of having coaches' salaries be competitive with schools HC aspires to be competitive with, he may have been referring to the IL. The HC coaches would like to think that. And better keep playing 2-3 Ivies every year.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 10, 2022 14:31:20 GMT -5
While I'm encouraging everyone to refocus on our current team and the upcoming 2022 season, I think I can provide some clarity on the evolution of the FCS and PL since 2000. Let's start with expectations, if you look back at the "non (official) scholarship" era of the PL in the first half of this century, there were plenty of PL champs that went on to perform very admirably in the playoffs with several wins (Lehigh 4 wins from 2000-2011, Fordham 2002 etc.) Colgate 2003 - As someone who played against this team (and led them 38-31 in the 4th Quarter with one 4th down stop away from winning the game, but as was typical to this era couldn't close it out), this was NOT the equivalent of a modern day "non-scholly" Pioneer league champ making it to the FCS National Championship. As a matter of fact, sports journalists were dumbfounded how a team from a league "w/o scholarships" could roll into the National championship at 15-0. I'm almost certain it was USA Today that did an expose on what was really going on here. They're investigation and article found that if you aggregated all of the "grant" money (athletic/academic/financial) for Colgate football, it equated to ~55 full scholarships. While not 63, it was now more understandable how a team could compete and beat these other FCS programs. That offense was loaded with talent (RB Jamal Branch - Payton award winner & played several years in the NFL as did their TE, another noteworthy name was their All-PL LB Tem Lukabu who is now the DC at Boston College and likely a FBS Head Coach in the next couple years.) So what's changed in the past decade? First off, there is a lot more parity across all D-1 college football (both FBS and FCS) with obvious FBS exceptions of Bama, Georgia and Clemson and NDSU & JMU in FCS. With SO many more good HS players out there, the gap between Group of 5 FBS and the top 3-4 FCS conferences has also narrowed. As for the PL, reinstated official athletic scholarships makes recruiting a bit more orderly and somewhat transparent, however as many have pointed out exhaustively, with the Big 3 limitations (3 fewer schollys, AI and redshirting restrictions) the PL has not made gains from top to bottom against other conferences. We are essentially where we were as a league in 2000. The top 1-2 teams in any given season are really good FCS programs and are quite capable of finishing in the Top 20 of a season's final rankings. The bottom half of the league is really poor on a national level. What does this mean for HC Football going forward? Given what we have accomplished, I think a realistic expectation is to be a consistent Top 10-15 program which means getting to the FCS quarterfinals (Villanova finished the 2021 rankings at #8) It will take a remarkably special team/season to advance to the Semis or beyond. I do LOVE the mentality that a National Championship is a realistic standard to be achieved. In talking to current players, they genuinely BELIEVE THIS. There are no longer MORAL victories. They were pissed and devastated after the loss to Nova even though many of us were proud of their performance. We kicked their ass for 2 1/2 quarters and the W was right there for the taking. This 2022 squad has what it will take (at least on paper) to take it to next level. That final 2003 game vs. Colgate was one of the best games at Fitton of the last 20 years. I have never seen a league that handcuffs itself more than the Patriot League. I could care less about the rest of the league. I hope HC steamrolls and demoralizes every other team in this league. At this point I'm sure Chesney and the team see the PL as a necessary evil. Schedule a powerhouse non-league schedule. Forget the Ivies. Rest of the country thinks their football is meaningless and those games do nothing when it comes to FCS playoff seedings. Is it September yet? Confused me about the Ivies. A game against a fifteenth ranked Ivy team counts the same as a game against a fifteenth ranked CAA or NEC team when Playoff seedings are calculated does it not? The IL plays twenty-four games per year against other FCS teams (UConn is FCS in talent level😂) so their competitive strength is not a guessing game for the seeding committee, many of whom have presumably lost recruits and/or games to the Ancient Eight.
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