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Post by cmo on Feb 16, 2022 9:19:19 GMT -5
How many alums and people in Worcester would be willing to pay the price for tickets that PC charged for tonight’s game against Nova? Big East ticket prices are not family friendly. We cannot keep living in the past. But must plan, finance and execute for the future. The nova tickets were definitely expensive, but it’s usually pretty affordable.
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Post by Tom on Feb 16, 2022 11:28:28 GMT -5
Absolutely. If HC was willing to keep up with the Joneses and admit students that don't close to meeting the academic profile of the school like the rest of the Big East, HC could be just like PC in basketball You mean like those academic slackards the college was admitting in the mid to late 70’s when HC hoops was gaining some national recognition. You know, the 3 guys chosen as Crusader of the Year, the guy who earned degrees from HC and WPI and the guy who became a PhD. Those types?? I never bought the either/or argument. If we turned out to be Vanderbilt or Northwestern, we could have said this isn’t for us and it’s time to go in a different direction. Back in the 70's when the schools we were playing for the most part also admitted athletes who were at least on the bell curve to reasonably meeting the academic profile of their given school. The good old level playing field. Then along comes ESPN and the money and a big financial incentive to bend those standards. In the 70's you could have your cake and eat it too. In the 80's that tide turned. Northwestern and Vandy are great examples. By choice they hold themselves to a higher academic standard than the other schools on their conferences and they pay a price in the league standings. Being consistently competitive in college basketball at the national level is hard under normal circumstances. With one hand tied behind your back, it's a lot harder. The path to competitiveness at that level, while maintaining academic integrity, is much different in the 21st century than it was in the 70's
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Post by princetoncrusader on Feb 16, 2022 13:11:26 GMT -5
Northwestern is an interesting case study. (I hold an MBA from the Kellogg school, so I follow the athletics to some extent.) Football seems to have had much more success than basketball in the last 9 years. Despite a brand new arena and a separate practice facility, the basketball team is on it's way to another losing season in the rugged Big 10. Chris Collins, who seems like a fine coach, is headed to his 8th losing season in 9 years. Coach Fitz has won the Big 10 West title twice in recent years and has had some notable bowl wins, most recently over Auburn. One of the players, the LS, was actually taking courses at NU's medical school. The team i think has the highest graduation rate of all FBS programs. No such thing as a PE or recreation major at NU. The NU teams regularly lead the conference in all-academic selections. So yes success in big-time college hoops is not easy for high-academic programs.
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Post by timholycross on Feb 16, 2022 13:16:58 GMT -5
Then you have Duke, weak in football; strong in basketball.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 16, 2022 13:24:46 GMT -5
Then you have Duke, weak in football; strong in basketball. Vandy follows a similar pattern--was actually pretty good in basketball for an extended period-until the last few year. Football of course, has been a study in futility for generations
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Post by Crucis#1 on Feb 16, 2022 13:42:44 GMT -5
At what cost to following the Providence College model for HC? Elimination of football and baseball? What other teams at HC would have been eliminated to pay the freight or baggage for Big East membership? Note: Providence has won the Big East Championship twice, 1994 and 2014. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Providence_Friars_men%27s_basketball
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Post by hchoops on Feb 16, 2022 14:29:49 GMT -5
At what cost to following the Providence College model for HC? Elimination of football and baseball? What other teams at HC would have been eliminated to pay the freight or baggage for Big East membership? Note: Providence has won the Big East Championship twice, 1994 and 2014. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Providence_Friars_men%27s_basketballAs was mentioned on last night’s telecast, PC has never won the regular season championship
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Post by hchoops on Feb 16, 2022 14:31:33 GMT -5
Then you have Duke, weak in football; strong in basketball. Duke’s academic standards for basketball players are far different from those of non hoopsters
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Post by newfieguy74 on Feb 16, 2022 14:34:52 GMT -5
Then you have Duke, weak in football; strong in basketball. Vandy follows a similar pattern--was actually pretty good in basketball for an extended period-until the last few year. Football of course, has been a study in futility for generations I went to a Vandy home football game a few years ago (my wife went there and my daughter is in graduate school there). The fraternity parties before the game were impressive, but the level of enthusiasm on campus for the game was very tepid. They do often have very good baseball teams.
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Post by Tom on Feb 16, 2022 15:49:59 GMT -5
Then you have Duke, weak in football; strong in basketball. Duke’s academic standards for basketball players are far different from those of non hoopsters Sounds like a supporting example of the opinions given in my last two posts
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Post by Crucis#1 on Feb 16, 2022 17:09:15 GMT -5
At what cost to following the Providence College model for HC? Elimination of football and baseball? What other teams at HC would have been eliminated to pay the freight or baggage for Big East membership? Note: Providence has won the Big East Championship twice, 1994 and 2014. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Providence_Friars_men%27s_basketballAs was mentioned on last night’s telecast, PC has never won the regular season championship PC, an original Big East member, for over forty years, has severely underperformed regarding being a sustained basketball power in the conference. Never having won the regulars season championship, and winning the tournament only twice. Guess a blind squirrel will find a nut on occasion. So, what would have been the odds of HC performing better during the last forty years in the Big East? Maybe the same as Fordham since joining the A10?
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Post by hcnation on Feb 16, 2022 18:37:29 GMT -5
I think Providence made the NCAA tournament 25% of the time since the Big East - not bad .
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Feb 16, 2022 18:43:32 GMT -5
PC has also benefited from being a consistent top 3 or 4 team in the "new" Big East. In the old Big East they were buried behind the likes of Louisville, Cincy, Syracuse, West Virginia and Pitt and were typically an NIT-level team. Sometimes being in a slightly weaker conference benefits certain programs.
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Post by trimster on Feb 16, 2022 19:00:22 GMT -5
Then you have Duke, weak in football; strong in basketball. Duke’s academic standards for basketball players are far different from those of non hoopsters Based on what. I am not saying you are wrong but just curious why you say that.
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Post by timholycross on Feb 17, 2022 8:50:42 GMT -5
I doubt Duke gave a rat's behind about what Zion Williamson and Jayson Tatum could or couldn't do in a classroom given that they were going to be off campus by April. Before Coach K (held out for a while) relented and convinced the school he had to bring those guys in to compete, no doubt they did.
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Post by timholycross on Feb 17, 2022 9:00:58 GMT -5
As was mentioned on last night’s telecast, PC has never won the regular season championship PC, an original Big East member, for over forty years, has severely underperformed regarding being a sustained basketball power in the conference. Never having won the regulars season championship, and winning the tournament only twice. Guess a blind squirrel will find a nut on occasion. So, what would have been the odds of HC performing better during the last forty years in the Big East? Maybe the same as Fordham since joining the A10? Are we talking about every decision (No sense listing them all or debating them) Brooks made EXCEPT joining that league being clung to; then, yes; a doormat and best avoided. I would say if HC accepted the A10 invite in 1982 or thereabouts the results would have been much better, at least for a while. Recruiting academically capable kids to play against good teams; but not cream-of-the-crop teams, is much more doable.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 17, 2022 9:10:12 GMT -5
It is not unusual for high quality academic universities with big time athletic to have different academic standards of admission and in fact some classes earmarked for athletes. A while back attended a Stanford game and in the game brochure the university explicitly stated its policy was to admit students within a lower range of SAT scores, somwhere around 1000 -1100. An ND alum close friend told me "You don't think the guys on the football team are in the same classes as the rest of us" Georgetown? UNC, UMichigan Even at lower level schools such as Villanova, St. John's the policy is similar. To their credit these schools do insist on attendance and do provide an education.
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Post by trimster on Feb 17, 2022 9:29:51 GMT -5
PC, an original Big East member, for over forty years, has severely underperformed regarding being a sustained basketball power in the conference. Never having won the regulars season championship, and winning the tournament only twice. Guess a blind squirrel will find a nut on occasion. So, what would have been the odds of HC performing better during the last forty years in the Big East? Maybe the same as Fordham since joining the A10? Are we talking about every decision (No sense listing them all or debating them) Brooks made EXCEPT joining that league being clung to; then, yes; a doormat and best avoided. I would say if HC accepted the A10 invite in 1982 or thereabouts the results would have been much better, at least for a while. Recruiting academically capable kids to play against good teams; but not cream-of-the-crop teams, is much more doable. I agree but the A 10 of 1982 was quite a bit different from the A10 of the last 25 years. Given Fr. Brooks leanings, there was no way he would be in a conference with Pitt, West Virginia and Rutgers if he had already decided he didn’t want to be in a conference with BC, PC, VIllanova, Georgetown et al. His intent long before those decisions were made was to eliminate athletic scholarships at HC. His vision for HC athletics certainly didn’t involve a greater commitment to hoops. The PL would turn out to provide him a way to eliminate scholarships.
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Post by bison137 on Feb 17, 2022 9:32:27 GMT -5
Duke’s academic standards for basketball players are far different from those of non hoopsters Based on what. I am not saying you are wrong but just curious why you say that. 15 years ago, according to a decade of data from the NCAA, the average Duke basketball SAT was 968. Quite a bit different from the student body. At that time, Stanford basketball had an 1123 average SAT and UNC had a 915. I doubt there have been major changes since then.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 17, 2022 10:48:35 GMT -5
Here's a look at SAT scores and what percentile they land in from 2021 according to PrepScholar.com. Assuming prepscholar is accurate, I shouldn't think the percentiles would be dramatically different from 15 years ago when the Blue Devils and Tar Heels were posting those scores noted above.
We've summarized the [2021] SAT percentile ranges here in a percentile chart. Just find your score to see your estimated percentile.
SAT Composite Score Range Percentile Score 1550-1600 99 to 99+ 1500-1550 98 to 99 1450-1500 96 to 98 1400-1450 93 to 96 1350-1400 90 to 93 1300-1350 86 to 90 1250-1300 81 to 86 1200-1250 74 to 81 1150-1200 67 to 74 1100-1150 59 to 67 1050-1100 51 to 59 1000-1050 42 to 51 950-1000 34 to 42 900-950 26 to 34 850-900 19 to 26 800-850 12 to 19 750-800 7 to 12 700-750 3 to 7 650-700 1 to 3 600-650 1- to 1
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Post by Tom on Feb 17, 2022 10:59:15 GMT -5
I think an interesting piece of data would be the average SAT score of the bottom 10 percent of non athletes at Duke. Probably hard to get. HC strives that the athletes represent the overall student body. A lower but reasonable bar would be how to the athletes compare to the last 10 percent of the kids in the door. If the bottom of the class at Duke at 1000 SAT's, the 968 is not quite representative of the worst non athletes, but not orders of magnitude. If the bottom non athletes in the class have an 1150, it's starting to look a little different
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