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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 25, 2022 7:37:59 GMT -5
Another query, why is Providence College considered a "regional college" while HC is considered a "national liberal arts" school? To be picky, it is classified as a regional university. IIRC, Villanova was originally classified as a regional university, and ranked #1, and then was moved to the national university category. USN&WR is not assigning schools to categories arbitrarily. The classification is done by Carnegie. carnegieclassifications.iu.edu/HC's academic reputation in the early 1970s was what got it classified as a national liberal arts college. It is worth underlining three times that HC and the Society of Jesus consider HC to be the only Jesuit LAC. Excerpted from the Carnegie Classification, criteria relevant to HC.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 25, 2022 7:53:30 GMT -5
Clearly, HC is a LAC. HC awards a majority of its degrees to students from states other than Massachusetts and thus is a National Liberal Arts College, a very special category. Are there any other NLAC Catholic colleges?
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Post by hcpride on Feb 25, 2022 7:59:00 GMT -5
Another query, why is Providence College considered a "regional college" while HC is considered a "national liberal arts" school? Not answering your question, but it is interesting that we are a LAC but our significant applicant overlap schools (Providence College being one such example) are not. (Soooooo our competitor schools in our USN&WR National LAC rankings [we have a stated goal of moving from tie-35 to top 25 in our category] are not our competitor schools in terms of enrolling kids.)
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 25, 2022 9:00:49 GMT -5
And, I suspect, that is why Vince wants to get back inside the top 25 LAC and we will once again be competing for those same students. Let's see what the next 5 years bring. FWIW, former PC president Shanley was on record as looking to Holy Cross as a model.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 25, 2022 9:50:31 GMT -5
Clearly, HC is a LAC. HC awards a majority of its degrees to students from states other than Massachusetts and thus is a National Liberal Arts College, a very special category. Are there any other NLAC Catholic colleges? Stonehill is ranked #98. St. Anselm's #105. Schools can petition the Carnegie to be re-classified. I do not know whether Villanova petitioned, or the Carnegie re-classified based on a review of the criteria and Villanova's data set. There are 223 National Liberal Arts schools, 199 of which are private. 24 are public, e.g., VMI (and the academies)
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 25, 2022 10:07:56 GMT -5
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Post by hcpride on Feb 25, 2022 12:13:33 GMT -5
And, I suspect, that is why Vince wants to get back inside the top 25 LAC and we will once again be competing for those same students. Let's see what the next 5 years bring. FWIW, former PC president Shanley was on record as looking to Holy Cross as a model. Maybe I wasn’t clear regarding the peculiarity. The kids we enroll are NOT (generally speaking) applying to the (secular) LACs in our USN&WR category. Instead, Holy Cross applicants tend to be cross applicants at PC, Fordham, BC, etc - those are the kids we are competing for. As president Shanley apparently noted. Not the secular NESCACS, Academies, California LACs, etc. that are above us in our LAC ratings. It is like we want to be like the higher ranked secular schools but the kids applying don’t look at us that way: www.holycross.edu/sites/default/files/AdminFinance/adminfin/ir/comparison_lists.pdf
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Post by bikeman on Feb 25, 2022 12:23:02 GMT -5
The Bucknell model for bball success that PL defenders here touted didn't hold did it? Football attendance versus PL foes won't improve despite the teams success. Locals and students for the most part aren't interested. As a former diehard fan, I can assure you membership in the PL was, is and always will be the issue.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 25, 2022 12:26:01 GMT -5
Perhaps I wasn't clear either. A lot of kids apply to Harvard or M.I.T. and also many other schools and have to go to the "lesser" school. In my day, people applied to Holy Cross and even lesser schools like BC and Georgetown . Those are "cross applicants" (no pun intended), right? A former neighbor's kid was sure he was going to M.I.T. and applied and visited the campus. Didn't get in and ended up at some school I never heard of in Pennsylvania . . . . and dropped out after a year. He went from top tier to bottom of the barrel. Any kid who applies to HC and PC, unless they are a top-notch basketball player who would get accepted to both schools is heading for Holy Cross. All that said, if your point is that we attract kids who are looking primarily at Catholic schools rather than "secular" schools, I'm on board with that to a degree. But, again, I think Vince is looking to change that dynamic.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 25, 2022 14:49:24 GMT -5
Perhaps I wasn't clear either. A lot of kids apply to Harvard or M.I.T. and also many other schools and have to go to the "lesser" school. In my day, people applied to Holy Cross and even lesser schools like BC and Georgetown . Those are "cross applicants" (no pun intended), right? A former neighbor's kid was sure he was going to M.I.T. and applied and visited the campus. Didn't get in and ended up at some school I never heard of in Pennsylvania . . . . and dropped out after a year. He went from top tier to bottom of the barrel. Any kid who applies to HC and PC, unless they are a top-notch basketball player who would get accepted to both schools is heading for Holy Cross. All that said, if your point is that we attract kids who are looking primarily at Catholic schools rather than "secular" schools, I'm on board with that to a degree. But, again, I think Vince is looking to change that dynamic. In that case, Vince's Carnegie category is "Pious Secularist." And his ranking is number one!😊
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Post by hc87 on Feb 25, 2022 15:21:04 GMT -5
Thanks for clarifying that distinction pp.....
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Post by gks on Feb 27, 2022 8:32:08 GMT -5
Perhaps I wasn't clear either. A lot of kids apply to Harvard or M.I.T. and also many other schools and have to go to the "lesser" school. In my day, people applied to Holy Cross and even lesser schools like BC and Georgetown . Those are "cross applicants" (no pun intended), right? A former neighbor's kid was sure he was going to M.I.T. and applied and visited the campus. Didn't get in and ended up at some school I never heard of in Pennsylvania . . . . and dropped out after a year. He went from top tier to bottom of the barrel. Any kid who applies to HC and PC, unless they are a top-notch basketball player who would get accepted to both schools is heading for Holy Cross.
All that said, if your point is that we attract kids who are looking primarily at Catholic schools rather than "secular" schools, I'm on board with that to a degree. But, again, I think Vince is looking to change that dynamic. While this is true you're forgetting the financial aid angle. This is a large part of where a student goes today. And all schools are not created equal.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 27, 2022 9:42:03 GMT -5
Not forgetting at all. I already carved out the basketball players. And PC is not giving out any scholarships for football or baseball. 😉
And while PC is likely less expensive than HC, HC meets the financial need to go to the College. PC has no such assurances.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 27, 2022 11:32:40 GMT -5
Not forgetting at all. I already carved out the basketball players. And PC is not giving out any scholarships for football or baseball. 😉 And while PC is likely less expensive than HC, HC meets the financial need to go to the College. PC has no such assurances. The financial need as HC defines it. Not necessarily the same as the family's reality. My sense is that PVR's aspirational top 25 NLAC's can and do define need more generously than HC does. But that's just from anecdotal cases that are all several years old.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 27, 2022 12:12:38 GMT -5
I totally agree, having been on the receiving end of Holy Cross' funny accounting on what a family's financial need was back in the mid 90's when older son was going to Holy Cross. Fairfield, for son #2, was more generous with financial aid while HC never made any adjustment to need once I was trying to put 2 kids through college with a 2 year overlap. Virtually all of what Holy Cross "gave" were loans, so really, looking back at it, not a big help. I've been assuming that with a huge endowment increase over 1998 that they are more generous now. Maybe '92 can enlighten us.
My "trick" that not one person suggested to me, was to take out a second mortgage on my home with my reasoning that taking out an educational loan was not tax deductible but drawing on a home equity loan was. Never calculated how much that saved me over 6 years (HC and FU).
That said, show me a kid who gets into both HC and PC and chooses PC without an athletic scholarship. That'd be like a kid getting accepted to Harvard and Holy Cross and choosing Holy Cross. It no doubt happens but more than likely, very rare. Even in RI, HC's academic reputation is considered much better than PC's and, importantly for the parents, the PC campus cannot compare.
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Post by hcpride on Feb 27, 2022 13:18:31 GMT -5
Perhaps I wasn't clear either. A lot of kids apply to Harvard or M.I.T. and also many other schools and have to go to the "lesser" school. In my day, people applied to Holy Cross and even lesser schools like BC and Georgetown . Those are "cross applicants" (no pun intended), right? A former neighbor's kid was sure he was going to M.I.T. and applied and visited the campus. Didn't get in and ended up at some school I never heard of in Pennsylvania . . . . and dropped out after a year. He went from top tier to bottom of the barrel. Any kid who applies to HC and PC, unless they are a top-notch basketball player who would get accepted to both schools is heading for Holy Cross.
All that said, if your point is that we attract kids who are looking primarily at Catholic schools rather than "secular" schools, I'm on board with that to a degree. But, again, I think Vince is looking to change that dynamic. While this is true you're forgetting the financial aid angle. This is a large part of where a student goes today. And all schools are not created equal. HC and PC (both classified as more selective by USN&WR BTW) may be close enough in prestige/geography/student body that if a student is considering a major offered by both schools, a 10K discount on the bottom line may indeed play a role in the decision. (We now wisely offer this sort of academic merit aid to our stronger accepted kids and it renews for four years.) Interestingly, HC and PC have very substantial cross applicants. To the extent that we are one of their top four applicant overlap schools AND they are one of our top 4 applicant overlap schools (that is a bit rarer than a casual observer might suspect). Also of interest and highlighting student body similarity, both schools also list BC and Fordham in their top 4 applicant overlap.
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Post by princetoncrusader on Feb 27, 2022 13:31:14 GMT -5
PC was granted a Phi Beta Kappa chapter last August, along with UNC-Charlotte and one other school. HC has had a chapter for about 50 years. This is one more indicator of academic prestige perhaps not always captured by various magazine rankings.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 27, 2022 13:41:33 GMT -5
We're getting into the weeds now but suggest, having lived in RI for over 20 years now, that one of the main reasons for the HC/PC overlap is due to the proximity of both schools and, yes, Catholic. RI, unless things have changed radically in recent years, was proportionately the most Catholic state in the country and has quite a number of Catholic high schools. Massachusetts has BC High, Catholic Memorial, St. Johns, etc., etc. and Providence is right down 146 (or up if coming from RI to HC). You are more inclined to go to a Catholic college if you went to a Catholic high school. Whatever PCs enhanced academics has been over the years, they would be considered a "safety school" for any HC applicant.
Having been living on LI at the time, my safety school for HC was Fairfield but getting into both and a legacy, that decision was a no-brainer. Of course, in those days, students didn't apply to 10 or 15 colleges.
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Post by HC92 on Feb 27, 2022 18:02:54 GMT -5
Fairfield is much more generous with the merit aid than either PC or HC.
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Post by HC92 on Feb 27, 2022 18:05:48 GMT -5
While this is true you're forgetting the financial aid angle. This is a large part of where a student goes today. And all schools are not created equal. HC and PC (both classified as more selective by USN&WR BTW) may be close enough in prestige/geography/student body that if a student is considering a major offered by both schools, a 10K discount on the bottom line may indeed play a role in the decision. (We now wisely offer this sort of academic merit aid to our stronger accepted kids and it renews for four years.) Interestingly, HC and PC have very substantial cross applicants. To the extent that we are one of their top four applicant overlap schools AND they are one of our top 4 applicant overlap schools (that is a bit rarer than a casual observer might suspect). Also of interest and highlighting student body similarity, both schools also list BC and Fordham in their top 4 applicant overlap. The average HC applicant is going to apply to PC and/or Fordham as a safety and BC as a reach. Based on what I hear from my son’s Catholic HS classmates, some will apply to PC and Fordham as their targets with HC as a reach. Some will apply to BC as their target school with HC as a safety.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 27, 2022 18:50:57 GMT -5
Georgetown’s having a tough go at it lately, but Bucknell’s struggling too. If you call 7 wins and 30 losses over the last 4 years struggling. Struggling on the border of flailing. But I don't see Bucknell dropping FB or exiting the PL as the remotest possibility. They just have to keep trying like HC has done in MBB for a dozen years.
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Post by efg72 on Feb 27, 2022 20:06:20 GMT -5
way off track fro the topic but
I had 4 of my kids accepted by BC and Georgetown and not accepted by Holy Cross. I must have done something wrong to somebody, I am just glad we are making the right changes in admissions-I would have canned all of them when Ann announced her retirement
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 28, 2022 7:41:33 GMT -5
way off track fro the topic but I had 4 of my kids accepted by BC and Georgetown and not accepted by Holy Cross. I must have done something wrong to somebody, I am just glad we are making the right changes in admissions-I would have canned all of them when Ann announced her retirement It is increasingly apparent to me that Ann did not have the skill set, background, or formative experience to pivot to a changing world with respect to admissions. The more she was challenged, the more she regressed to the familiar [for her]/. -------------------------- As a complete aside, Northeastern had over 90,000 applications for the class of 2026. (No football, middling hoops and ice hockey). The entering class size will be 2,500, because of constraints on bed space; class of 2025's yield was too high). The application total would be roughly equivalent to HC receiving 30,000 applications for the class of 2026.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Feb 28, 2022 7:59:27 GMT -5
way off track fro the topic but I had 4 of my kids accepted by BC and Georgetown and not accepted by Holy Cross. I must have done something wrong to somebody, I am just glad we are making the right changes in admissions-I would have canned all of them when Ann announced her retirement It is increasingly apparent to me that Ann did not have the skill set, background, or formative experience to pivot to a changing world with respect to admissions. The more she was challenged, the more she regressed to the familiar [for her]/. -------------------------- As a complete aside, Northeastern had over 90,000 applications for the class of 2026. (No football, middling hoops and ice hockey). The entering class size will be 2,500, because of constraints on bed space; class of 2025's yield was too high). The application total would be roughly equivalent to HC receiving 30,000 applications for the class of 2026. And Northeastern, not so long ago a very easy school to get into, accomplished this by deconstructing the USNWR rating process and gaming each of the criteria. I'm not suggesting they did anything wrong, but even some Northeastern people acknowledge how specious some of this rating business is. It's long past time for HC admissions to stop patting itself on the back and to get out of the 1960's.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 28, 2022 8:28:12 GMT -5
I have a hard time accepting that Northeastern is a school we should be making any comparisons with. Here's their 2020 numbers which are a bit off from what Phreek quoted (and likely his are updates). Here's the thing, we are a liberal arts exclusive college. Northeastern is not only multiple times larger than Holy Cross but their spectrum of courses is much wider and, therefore, has a broader audience of potential students and therefore many more applicants: facts.northeastern.edu/
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