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Post by crusader1970 on Mar 3, 2022 9:45:44 GMT -5
I voted among the 58% with almost no conviction to do so and my guess is there are others who feel the same way. My not so strong reasons for voting no we’re the squad basically had ten frosh on it and firing Nelson now would add to the perception HC churns thru men’s basketball coaches at a rapid pace. Totally agree. Holy Cross isn't the "Cradle of Coaches," but shouldn't become the "Boot Hill of Coaches," either. That said, I would shed no tears if the AD decides to go in another direction now.
As a practical matter, I don't get the sense that Hughes is ready to do it - he's hit his home run for the year, can find a justification for retention in the "improvement" shown in PL play over the last three years, and then there's the money . . .
If there are multiple players showing up in the portal in the next month or so, then would favor pulling the plug now. Otherwise, Nelson gets another year, with very high expectations for success - doesn't meet them, he gets the . . . boot. I understand your point but do not see any reason to believe that things will change significantly next year with Nelson as the coach.
Ask Mike Brennan that question and he may chuckle. He grossly outcoached Nelson 3X with the worst record in the PL.
Not making the change now just puts off for a year the inevitable.
Unfortunately IMO that is reality and why I voted for immediate removal.
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Post by joe on Mar 3, 2022 9:47:52 GMT -5
Succinct, logical, and based on ample historical data. All true and, IMO, on a "win at any cost" attitude that would not serve Holy Cross well. Right or wrong. Agree or disagree. It’s a logical statement. Personally, I believe in forgiveness and redemption but what do I know? I’m just a Holy Cross guy who went to mass a couple of times. Holy Cross and what’s left of our Catholic identify could have been a salve for Rick, who knows HC basketball from when it was an eastern presence.
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Post by trimster on Mar 3, 2022 9:50:34 GMT -5
An unpopular view ---- Hasn't HC been the graveyard of coaches since Kearney? Which quality coach would take a job at HC? The pay is not unusually high. There are other healthier programs which could match or surpass any salary HC could offer. We are deluding ourselves if we believe HC is a sleeping giant. Sure, Blaney who rescued the program & Willard produced nice teams. But those teams were not giants.HC has most truly not been a giant since Roy Leenig's teams in the 50's. In today's bb climate HC would be lucky to be ranked in the top 100. And, with a top 100 rank many stakeholders would be screaming for the coach's head. How many here would take the job with the expectations and without the job security or support? Peace. I would be doing handstands if we were the #100 program in America.
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Post by crusader1970 on Mar 3, 2022 9:55:15 GMT -5
An unpopular view ---- Hasn't HC been the graveyard of coaches since Kearney? Which quality coach would take a job at HC? The pay is not unusually high. There are other healthier programs which could match or surpass any salary HC could offer. We are deluding ourselves if we believe HC is a sleeping giant. Sure, Blaney who rescued the program & Willard produced nice teams. But those teams were not giants.HC has most truly not been a giant since Roy Leenig's teams in the 50's. In today's bb climate HC would be lucky to be ranked in the top 100. And, with a top 100 rank many stakeholders would be screaming for the coach's head. How many here would take the job with the expectations and without the job security or support? Peace.That's why a young Div II or Div III head coach with a winning track record has to be the target. It would be a significant step up in salary for the majority of these coaches and provide a confident young coach with the opportunity to prove his competence at the Div I level.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 3, 2022 10:01:06 GMT -5
A coach with something to prove could be a help for HC...when there is a position open for him/her.
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Post by mm67 on Mar 3, 2022 10:59:39 GMT -5
HC's paradigm for athletics is outdated and could be improved. Athletics must be viewed as an integral part of an HC education - a true full Athletics Dep't. Why not have the AD changed to a faculty position? Why not require all students to take one required course ( not phys ed) in in a truly academic Athletics Dep't? Coaches could teach one course in the off season. (As Columbia has done.) This course could provide great value to the education of the full person at HC. The school has the facilities. Student-athletes would be exempt. Why not change the head coaching positions in basketball(M?W) and football to faculty position with some modifications? Start with these sports with the promise to expand to other teams in other sports. Head Coaches should be part of the faculty. The security of a faculty position (Teach one class only in off season - combined with head coaching) in exchange for a healthy salary might be a beneficial tradeoff and might be cost effective.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 3, 2022 11:15:32 GMT -5
HC's paradigm for athletics is outdated and could be improved. Athletics must be viewed as an integral part of an HC education - a true full Athletics Dep't. Why not have the AD changed to a faculty position? Why not require all students to take one required course ( not phys ed) in in a truly academic Athletics Dep't? Coaches could teach one course in the off season. (As Columbia has done.) This course could provide great value to the education of the full person at HC. The school has the facilities. Student-athletes would be exempt. Why not change the head coaching positions in basketball(M?W) and football to faculty position with some modifications? Start with these sports with the promise to expand to other teams in other sports. Head Coaches should be part of the faculty. The security of a faculty position (Teach one class only in off season - combined with head coaching) in exchange for a healthy salary might be a beneficial tradeoff and might be cost effective. "Joe Blow was let go as head coach at Holy Cross today and kicked into the classroom full time, as he is a tenured professor." That's what kept the late Steve Belichick at the Naval Academy as an assistant coach instead of taking numerous head coaching offers. He was also a Professor of Phys. Ed. and was eligible for a Federal Pension to which his years of service in WW2 counted towards as well as his years employed at the Academy. Not saying it's a practical idea at HC. We have our own "Chesney Model" that seems to fit our unique status as a small fish in the big pond of D-1, and that some would like to see tested in another major sport like BB.
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Post by Ignutz on Mar 3, 2022 11:36:39 GMT -5
An unpopular view ---- Hasn't HC been the graveyard of coaches since Kearney? Which quality coach would take a job at HC? The pay is not unusually high. There are other healthier programs which could match or surpass any salary HC could offer. We are deluding ourselves if we believe HC is a sleeping giant. Sure, Blaney who rescued the program & Willard produced nice teams. But those teams were not giants.HC has most truly not been a giant since Roy Leenig's teams in the 50's. In today's bb climate HC would be lucky to be ranked in the top 100. And, with a top 100 rank many stakeholders would be screaming for the coach's head. How many here would take the job with the expectations and without the job security or support? Peace. When HC MBB teams of the mid- to late-70s have a preseason #9 ranking in Sports Illustrated, and are knocking off Top-10 teams like Cincinnati and Providence, and going down to the wire with #1 Michigan, I think those teams can reasonably be described as "giants".
I hope that sometime before I head to the other side to the grass, I get to see a return to some semblance of those years, but I'm not too optimistic.
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Post by timholycross on Mar 3, 2022 12:30:53 GMT -5
HC's paradigm for athletics is outdated and could be improved. Athletics must be viewed as an integral part of an HC education - a true full Athletics Dep't. Why not have the AD changed to a faculty position? Why not require all students to take one required course ( not phys ed) in in a truly academic Athletics Dep't? Coaches could teach one course in the off season. (As Columbia has done.) This course could provide great value to the education of the full person at HC. The school has the facilities. Student-athletes would be exempt. Why not change the head coaching positions in basketball(M?W) and football to faculty position with some modifications? Start with these sports with the promise to expand to other teams in other sports. Head Coaches should be part of the faculty. The security of a faculty position (Teach one class only in off season - combined with head coaching) in exchange for a healthy salary might be a beneficial tradeoff and might be cost effective. "Joe Blow was let go as head coach at Holy Cross today and kicked into the classroom full time, as he is a tenured professor." That's what kept the late Steve Belichick at the Naval Academy as an assistant coach instead of taking numerous head coaching offers. He was also a Professor of Phys. Ed. and was eligible for a Federal Pension to which his years of service in WW2 counted towards as well as his years employed at the Academy. Not saying it's a practical idea at HC. We have our own "Chesney Model" that seems to fit our unique status as a small fish in the big pond of D-1, and that some would like to see tested in another major sport like BB. Pretty sure that's why Mel Massucco's move to WPI was a better deal financially and came w/more security. Don't expect that to happen at Mt. St. James, but there are interesting aspects to your proposal and it could work, perhaps.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Mar 3, 2022 12:48:08 GMT -5
Not that I want to fast forward my life 3 years, but things will be a bit simpler once we get past the Covid bonus year cycle. Unless I'm miscounting, HC still has 7 players who will have that choice to make (Bo, Bubba, RJJ, LMC, JM, Rabs, and ND). Even if the team improves and things stabilize, what are the chances that all 7 love it so much here that they will opt for double majors, rather than looking to be grad students elsewhere? A headache for either the present or any potential future coach.
Bleeping Covid
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Mar 3, 2022 12:56:23 GMT -5
Actually, would ND lose his bonus opportunity to leave since he transferred in from New Mexico? Cannot keep track of these rules.
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Post by Tom on Mar 3, 2022 13:02:32 GMT -5
Actually, would ND lose his bonus opportunity to leave since he transferred in from New Mexico? Cannot keep track of these rules. Dorsey has 3 years of eligibility. If he chooses to leave (even after graduation) and play for another D-I school, he would have to sit a year
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Post by mm67 on Mar 3, 2022 13:08:14 GMT -5
An unpopular view ---- Hasn't HC been the graveyard of coaches since Kearney? Which quality coach would take a job at HC? The pay is not unusually high. There are other healthier programs which could match or surpass any salary HC could offer. We are deluding ourselves if we believe HC is a sleeping giant. Sure, Blaney who rescued the program & Willard produced nice teams. But those teams were not giants.HC has most truly not been a giant since Roy Leenig's teams in the 50's. In today's bb climate HC would be lucky to be ranked in the top 100. And, with a top 100 rank many stakeholders would be screaming for the coach's head. How many here would take the job with the expectations and without the job security or support? Peace. When HC MBB teams of the mid- to late-70s have a preseason #9 ranking in Sports Illustrated, and are knocking off Top-10 teams like Cincinnati and Providence, and going down to the wire with #1 Michigan, I think those teams can reasonably be described as "giants".
I hope that sometime before I head to the other side to the grass, I get to see a return to some semblance of those years, but I'm not too optimistic.Sir, Respectfully the #9 ranking was a pre-season outlier and did not last into the season. Alums repeat it on end. It means little today. Forgot our seed in the tournament. We had an HC Tournament Game Party in Ridgefield, Conn.. The team played well. The announcers treated us as the little Chu Chu who could(not a quote). In the end we lost by 15 points (I think.).The Giants in Norse legend would not have been impressed. Played UK tough too. U Arkansas,whoops. Those teams played at a higher level. Giants no. We are in a different space than 40+years ago as those teams were in a different space than those earlier teams from the mid forties to early'60's. I assume a PL championship with a top 100 ranking would not be OK. Well, we all win if you are correct and HC wins. Hope we both are still on this side of the grass to enjoy the team. The last few years of HC bb have been painful. Peace, Brother Alum.
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Post by timholycross on Mar 3, 2022 13:09:39 GMT -5
Not that I want to fast forward my life 3 years, but things will be a bit simpler once we get past the Covid bonus year cycle. Unless I'm miscounting, HC still has 7 players who will have that choice to make (Bo, Bubba, RJJ, LMC, JM, Rabs, and ND). Even if the team improves and things stabilize, what are the chances that all 7 love it so much here that they will opt for double majors, rather than looking to be grad students elsewhere? A headache for either the present or any potential future coach. Bleeping Covid I'll be thrilled if at least half of the guys listed above are good enough by the time they leave HC that another D1 program wants them. Remember, when they have a year left, there are going to be a ton of guys out there looking to move somewhere (and the competition that year in college basketball should be pretty darned good). In other words, as long as they are better players than they are now. RJJ, I think, is; but unfortunately, in his case, hopefully "is" is not "was".
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Post by hc6774 on Mar 3, 2022 13:23:28 GMT -5
Actually, would ND lose his bonus opportunity to leave since he transferred in from New Mexico? Cannot keep track of these rules. Dorsey has 3 years of eligibility. If he chooses to leave (even after graduation) and play for another D-I school, he would have to sit a year NCAA graduate transfer rules The NCAA graduate transfer rules provide an easy way to transfer and play immediately. However, this depends on the student having earned a bachelor’s degree before departing. In that case, as long as they have eligibility remaining on their five-year clock, they can play right away at their new school. This is one of the NCAA football transfer rules and NCAA basketball transfer rules that’s becoming more well known as of late. One prime example is Russell Wilson. He followed NCAA football transfer rules in moving on from North Carolina State in 2011 and heading to Wisconsin to play quarterback that fall. The intent behind these NCAA transfer rules is that a player should not be punished by graduating and wanting to attend graduate school elsewhere.
A recent proposal to change NCAA football transfer rules and NCAA basketball transfer rules and require schools to count that player as a used scholarship for two years unless a graduate degree was earned in one year was defeated.
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Post by alumni111 on Mar 3, 2022 13:34:04 GMT -5
Just need to look to WBB to see what kind of impact a solid (not even great, just solid) coach can have on a basketball program in the PL. (But keep in mind, HC's best player BY FAR was a BG recruit). Magarity has the kind of track record HC needs in a MBB coach. (Looking back, BC brought that to HC). No coincidence that GB & RW had both experience as a head coach and understanding of HC history/culture, and theirs are the two most successful modern eras. Whether it's D1, D2 or D3, the next coach should come in knowing what it's like to run a program. KH can't let BN go unless he's confident he's visibly "trading up." Don't want a search firm for this hire. I trust KH to do the research and networking to make the right hire. Really believe he's seen all he needs to see to determine if KH is the right person going forward.
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Post by Tom on Mar 3, 2022 13:41:07 GMT -5
Dorsey has 3 years of eligibility. If he chooses to leave (even after graduation) and play for another D-I school, he would have to sit a year NCAA graduate transfer rules The NCAA graduate transfer rules provide an easy way to transfer and play immediately. However, this depends on the student having earned a bachelor’s degree before departing. In that case, as long as they have eligibility remaining on their five-year clock, they can play right away at their new school. This is one of the NCAA football transfer rules and NCAA basketball transfer rules that’s becoming more well known as of late. One prime example is Russell Wilson. He followed NCAA football transfer rules in moving on from North Carolina State in 2011 and heading to Wisconsin to play quarterback that fall. The intent behind these NCAA transfer rules is that a player should not be punished by graduating and wanting to attend graduate school elsewhere.
A recent proposal to change NCAA football transfer rules and NCAA basketball transfer rules and require schools to count that player as a used scholarship for two years unless a graduate degree was earned in one year was defeated. That changed last year. Everyone gets one free transfer from D-I to D-I, but only 1. Faw and Butler are playing right away but they never transferred. This is also how Gates and Dorsey played right away without a sit out year. .Getting your degree from a school you transfer into does not get you a second transfer without sitting out a year. I would think someone like Grandison might be an exception because even though he transferred he did sit out a year and never used that one time exception
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Post by Ignutz on Mar 3, 2022 13:51:00 GMT -5
When HC MBB teams of the mid- to late-70s have a preseason #9 ranking in Sports Illustrated, and are knocking off Top-10 teams like Cincinnati and Providence, and going down to the wire with #1 Michigan, I think those teams can reasonably be described as "giants".
I hope that sometime before I head to the other side to the grass, I get to see a return to some semblance of those years, but I'm not too optimistic. Sir, Respectfully the #9 ranking was a pre-season outlier and did not last into the season. Alums repeat it on end. It means little today. Forgot our seed in the tournament. We had an HC Tournament Game Party in Ridgefield, Conn.. The team played well. The announcers treated us as the little Chu Chu who could(not a quote). In the end we lost by 15 points (I think.).The Giants in Norse legend would not have been impressed. Played UK tough too. U Arkansas,whoops. Those teams played at a higher level. Giants no. We are in a different space than 40+years ago as those teams were in a different space than those earlier teams from the mid forties to early'60's. I assume a PL championship with a top 100 ranking would not be OK. Well, we all win if you are correct and HC wins. Hope we both are still on this side of the grass to enjoy the team. The last few years of HC bb have been painful. Peace, Brother Alum. The team was ranked in the Top-20 (only twenty back then) through mid-January, and rose to as high as #13. In an eight day span at the end of the season, we beat #8 Providence and lost by 11 to #1 Michigan - in a game where we led at halftime as well as into the last few minutes, until Bill Doran rolled an ankle and had to sit for a short time. By the time Doran re-entered the game, the UM lead had grown, and we were unable to recover. Keep in mind that those last two games were played without our National Freshman of the Year, Ronnie Perry. Additionally, Michael Vicens was immense in the Michigan game -23 points in 31 minutes (11-16 from the floor) before fouling out. I stand by my previous post.
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Post by Ignutz on Mar 3, 2022 13:53:22 GMT -5
Just need to look to WBB to see what kind of impact a solid (not even great, just solid) coach can have on a basketball program in the PL. (But keep in mind, HC's best player BY FAR was a BG recruit). Magarity has the kind of track record HC needs in a MBB coach. (Looking back, BC brought that to HC). No coincidence that GB & RW had both experience as a head coach and understanding of HC history/culture, and theirs are the two most successful modern eras. Whether it's D1, D2 or D3, the next coach should come in knowing what it's like to run a program. KH can't let BN go unless he's confident he's visibly "trading up." Don't want a search firm for this hire. I trust KH to do the research and networking to make the right hire. Really believe he's seen all he needs to see to determine if KH is the right person going forward. BN, not KH, in your last sentence, right?
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Post by alumni111 on Mar 3, 2022 13:54:50 GMT -5
Right! Thanks, SCL!!
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Post by hchoops on Mar 3, 2022 14:02:22 GMT -5
Sir, Respectfully the #9 ranking was a pre-season outlier and did not last into the season. Alums repeat it on end. It means little today. Forgot our seed in the tournament. We had an HC Tournament Game Party in Ridgefield, Conn.. The team played well. The announcers treated us as the little Chu Chu who could(not a quote). In the end we lost by 15 points (I think.).The Giants in Norse legend would not have been impressed. Played UK tough too. U Arkansas,whoops. Those teams played at a higher level. Giants no. We are in a different space than 40+years ago as those teams were in a different space than those earlier teams from the mid forties to early'60's. I assume a PL championship with a top 100 ranking would not be OK. Well, we all win if you are correct and HC wins. Hope we both are still on this side of the grass to enjoy the team. The last few years of HC bb have been painful. Peace, Brother Alum. The team was ranked in the Top-20 (only twenty back then) through mid-January, and rose to as high as #13. In an eight day span at the end of the season, we beat #8 Providence and lost by 11 to #1 Michigan - in a game where we led at halftime as well as into the last few minutes, until Bill Doran rolled an ankle and had to sit for a short time. By the time Doran re-entered the game, the UM lead had grown, and we were unable to recover. Keep in mind that those last two games were played without our National Freshman of the Year, Ronnie Perry. Additionally, Michael Vicens was immense in the Michigan game -23 points in 31 minutes (11-16 from the floor) before fouling out. I stand by my previous post. The PC win and Michigan loss were in March, 1977 The high rankings were for the 77-78 season. Rank. Date 12. 12/26/77 13. 1/9/78 14. 1/16/78
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Post by mm67 on Mar 3, 2022 14:32:15 GMT -5
There is no question that HC played at a higher level during that time. The '77 -78 time period was especially noteworthy. I am a fan. NCAA Giants? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. HC fans myself included have tended to have unrealistic , inflated expectations. Be honest: HC wins the PL championship, ranked 50-100 (75), gets a tournament invite, 15 regional seed and loses handily to a powerhouse professional college squad. What would the reaction be? I do recognize the passion.
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aaa8316
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 147
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Post by aaa8316 on Mar 3, 2022 15:37:03 GMT -5
HC's paradigm for athletics is outdated and could be improved. Athletics must be viewed as an integral part of an HC education - a true full Athletics Dep't. Why not have the AD changed to a faculty position? Why not require all students to take one required course ( not phys ed) in in a truly academic Athletics Dep't? Coaches could teach one course in the off season. (As Columbia has done.) This course could provide great value to the education of the full person at HC. The school has the facilities. Student-athletes would be exempt. Why not change the head coaching positions in basketball(M?W) and football to faculty position with some modifications? Start with these sports with the promise to expand to other teams in other sports. Head Coaches should be part of the faculty. The security of a faculty position (Teach one class only in off season - combined with head coaching) in exchange for a healthy salary might be a beneficial tradeoff and might be cost effective. This is Division 1 athletics. Coaching is a career (For all Head Coaches, and many Assistants at Holy Cross). Pay people to do what is their craft. The more you muddy the waters with "responsibilities", the harder it is to create legitimate accountability measures. The coaching profession in Division 1 athletics is not for the faint of heart. It is very difficult to hide your flaws, and most of the time -- winning matters.We don't need tenured coaches that are being pulled in even more directions (academically) due to their hiring arrangement. If salaries are an issue (oldest topic ever with Crusader Athletics) the leaders of the institution should do something substantial about it. Otherwise, quit bitc*ing about it. ** Holy Cross doesn't have a money issue -- reference the financial and admission reports online.
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Post by Ignutz on Mar 3, 2022 15:43:54 GMT -5
The team was ranked in the Top-20 (only twenty back then) through mid-January, and rose to as high as #13. In an eight day span at the end of the season, we beat #8 Providence and lost by 11 to #1 Michigan - in a game where we led at halftime as well as into the last few minutes, until Bill Doran rolled an ankle and had to sit for a short time. By the time Doran re-entered the game, the UM lead had grown, and we were unable to recover. Keep in mind that those last two games were played without our National Freshman of the Year, Ronnie Perry. Additionally, Michael Vicens was immense in the Michigan game -23 points in 31 minutes (11-16 from the floor) before fouling out. I stand by my previous post. The PC win and Michigan loss were in March, 1977 The high rankings were for the 77-78 season. Rank. Date 12. 12/26/77 13. 1/9/78 14. 1/16/78 You're correct. It was the year after the NCAA game vs. Michigan that had us in the rankings. Mea maxima culpa!
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 3, 2022 15:51:52 GMT -5
There is no question that HC played at a higher level during that time. The '77 -78 time period was especially noteworthy. I am a fan. NCAA Giants? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. HC fans myself included have tended to have unrealistic , inflated expectations. Be honest: HC wins the PL championship, ranked 50-100 (75), gets a tournament invite, 15 regional seed and loses handily to a powerhouse professional college squad. What would the reaction be? I do recognize the passion. The reaction has been excitement before and still good feelings afterward when we took a giant to the limit, not so much when we've been beaten soundly. That just sucks.
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