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Post by bison137 on Mar 17, 2022 15:12:51 GMT -5
Princeton must be very good in women's hoops. Since 2010, Princeton’s average Massey ranking has been in the top 50.
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Post by purplehaze on Mar 17, 2022 15:48:00 GMT -5
In the postgame presser with the Lions coach she said that she knew they had the 'size and athleticism' advantage going into the game (you can find the link on their website) How things have changed ! the Ivy team enjoys that advantage over a very good HC team - that should not be
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Post by HC13 on Mar 17, 2022 17:11:07 GMT -5
In the postgame presser with the Lions coach she said that she knew they had the 'size and athleticism' advantage going into the game (you can find the link on their website) How things have changed ! the Ivy team enjoys that advantage over a very good HC team - that should not be The Ivy League has been ranked higher than the PL for a number of years and by a fair amount since 2015 as a conference lead by Princeton and followed, depending on the year, by Penn, Harvard & Yale. Columbia's success is relatively recent. Understandably I think, all things being equal, you're a high academic with offers from teams on both leagues, where's the average kid going?
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Post by hchoops on Mar 17, 2022 17:31:55 GMT -5
Even to the non scholarship Ivies ?
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 17, 2022 17:37:10 GMT -5
The average kid is going Ivy in that comparison. It used to be a comfortable two income middle class family might have to pay or borrow tens of thousands over four years to attend an Ivy School compared to a free ride at HC if the child was offered a BB scholarship. Now I think the Ivies give more aid at higher income levels so the advantage of the HC scholarship is reduced and overwhelmed by the advantages of an IL degree in most cases.
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Post by bison137 on Mar 17, 2022 18:01:56 GMT -5
Even to the non scholarship Ivies ? Ivy financial aid has become fairly generous. For example, a kid who’s parents make $100,000 a year would generally pay less than $20,000 a year to attend an Ivy. If the parents haven’t saved much money in terms of cash and investments, the per year cost might be less than $10,000. Home equity does not count in the formula. So kids from low income and middle income families might well prefer an Ivy. The Patriot League’s best shot might be the upper middle class or those who are somewhat wealthy but not wealthy enough to not care about the cost of college. Of course the student athlete needs to get admitted, and it is harder to get admitted at an Ivy than at any patriot league school.
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Post by purplehaze on Mar 17, 2022 18:24:44 GMT -5
If the PL cannot compete successfully against the Ivies with full scholarship offers, our place at the bottom of D.1 will be permanent
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 17, 2022 18:38:52 GMT -5
If the PL cannot compete successfully against the Ivies with full scholarship offers, our place at the bottom of D.1 will be permanent The window of opportunity appears to be in the high but not highest academic band. Any flexibility in admissions would help expand that band.
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Post by oldschoolhoops on Mar 17, 2022 19:46:05 GMT -5
Admins in the PL need to care about on the court/field/ice success to win. That's where it starts. So for women's hoops in PL, do all the schools care about their programs and winning? Are they hiring coaches with that in mind? Are they willing to spend to keep talent? Are they providing facilities with that in mind? Are they willing to sometimes make exceptions in admissions for a program changing athlete?
There's a lot that goes into that window of opportunity. The PL is a great league though on its own. Tough to compare to Ivy which is really an oddball in D1.
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Post by bison137 on Mar 17, 2022 20:20:27 GMT -5
If the PL cannot compete successfully against the Ivies with full scholarship offers, our place at the bottom of D.1 will be permanent I think you are being a bit pessimistic. To begin, the Ivy League has consistently been among the top 12 conferences out of 32 in the country. To be worse than the Ivy does not mean that a league is bad. Some of the other leagues consistently worse than the Ivy have been the Atlantic 10, Conference USA, the MWC, and the CAA. Although worse than the Ivy, the Patriot League has been nowhere near the bottom of D1 in recent years. Generally has ranked between 19 and 23 out of the 32 conferences. And the Patriot league over the past six seasons has been much better than the MAAC, America East, and the NEC every single year. Note that both the Ivy and Patriot Leagues were a bit worse than normal this year, which I think mostly is a result of all the screwiness of the 2021 Covid year. I expect both of the leagues to be better next year.
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Post by oldschoolhoops on Mar 17, 2022 20:48:56 GMT -5
Agreeing with Mr. Bison on where the league is. Not sure the covid year impacted as much as the natural cycles of talent and new coaches though although it has had impact--and certainly will next year with some seniors (AU) coming back that normally would not. The PL is young and will be better the next few seasons no doubt.
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Post by HC92 on Mar 17, 2022 21:52:49 GMT -5
Princeton must be very good in women's hoops. We should hire Carla Berube as our next men’s coach. She is no joke. However, I fear she may be holding out for Geno’s job.
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Post by bison137 on Mar 17, 2022 22:58:37 GMT -5
Agreeing with Mr. Bison on where the league is. Not sure the covid year impacted as much as the natural cycles of talent and new coaches though although it has had impact--and certainly will next year with some seniors (AU) coming back that normally would not. The PL is young and will be better the next few seasons no doubt. The new coaches and the natural cycle may well have had an effect. But I think you underestimate how big the effect of Covid was. Even forgetting about the fact that the league played only a fraction of a normal season last year and had much less practice than normal, consider the effect of the extra year of eligibility. Every league in the nation except for the Patriot League and the Ivy League got stronger, as every other league had a number of super-seniors on the roster this year. The patriot league had none. Consider how much talent might’ve come back if the PL head athletes more worried about athletics and about academics: Katie Nelson Tessa Brugler Abby Kapp Natalie Kucowski mary Clougherty Sophie Gatzounas Drew Freeland Autumn Ceppi Ally Johnson Mariah Sexe Nia Ahart Izzy Therien Nelson, Brugler, Ceppi, and Ahart are still playing, and most of the others could be. I didn’t list Ellie Mack but she too is still paying, having played about 25 mpg for Oregon State. What would the patriot league this year have looked like if many of those players were still playing for their original PL team?
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Post by oldschoolhoops on Mar 17, 2022 23:50:53 GMT -5
Analyzing the impact of covid in sports will take years, no doubt. We agree there was an impact. I am sure we can agree it will continue to have an impact. The players you listed were all seniors last season, I believe. So they graduate and move on in 2021 whether covid exists or not. And that cycle of losing key players (as you know, Bucknell lost 4 starters) like Kucowski for Lafayette, Nelson at Boston U, and Therien at Loyola to my view was the most impactful to the league this year. That, plus 6 new coaches in the last two seasons. If you're saying that the lack of a graduate school option for seniors who could/would have returned (because NCAA granted an extra year due to covid) and played an extra season was impactful, we can also agree on that. But the Ivy league shut down entirely last year and produced two very strong teams in Princeton and Columbia this season. In the PL, we all had about 10-12 games and several weeks of practice (give or take a shutdown or 2, or 3...) in 2020-21. The league is in transition on a few fronts but the talent groupings next season are stronger in my view. And so I think we can agree on one more thing.....next year is going to be a stronger year for the PL and probably also very exciting and competitive at the top of the league. I, for one, am really looking forward to that. And hopefully no more threat of covid for the players, coaches or all the fans on this board.
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Post by bison137 on Mar 18, 2022 0:42:43 GMT -5
Yes, the Ivy League produced two strong teams this year. But in total the league had its worst Massey rating in many years. I think that is directly attributable to the effect of the shut down. Also due to the effect of all of the other leagues having super-seniors while the Ivy does not.
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Post by bfoley82 on Mar 18, 2022 8:48:02 GMT -5
Princeton must be very good in women's hoops. We should hire Carla Berube as our next men’s coach. She is no joke. However, I fear she may be holding out for Geno’s job. I remember people here hating on hiring a D2 coach as a new head coach at HC. Princeton hired a D3 head coach as Berube was at Tufts.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Mar 18, 2022 10:15:31 GMT -5
We should hire Carla Berube as our next men’s coach. She is no joke. However, I fear she may be holding out for Geno’s job. I remember people here hating on hiring a D2 coach as a new head coach at HC. Princeton hired a D3 head coach as Berube was at Tufts. There was one guy who didn't like the Chesney hire. Go read the threads and then take a shift off.
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Post by HC13 on Mar 18, 2022 10:20:57 GMT -5
True, but Berube had multiple offers before accepting Princeton, she was highly sought for a while. I for one would have been quite pleased if we had hired one of several D2/3 coaches at the time. MM has done a better job than I anticipated the last two seasons - the upcoming one will certainly test her abilities. HC has a solid core coming back, but they will need several of the incoming frosh & sophs to deliver, if not, next year could be a struggle. I do like that all the incoming kids, especially Donnelly & Cahalan are very good defensively. I hope that translates easily to the college level, if so, they can be a very good defensive team. MM is going to be challenged on where to find her offense. PPC was a bit inconsistent, Cross's offense was great the back half of the season & McCormack was a little up & down after her return, Allen was great all season, expect big things from her next year.
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Post by oldschoolhoops on Mar 18, 2022 12:51:18 GMT -5
Yes, the Ivy League produced two strong teams this year. But in total the league had its worst Massey rating in many years. I think that is directly attributable to the effect of the shut down. Also due to the effect of all of the other leagues having super-seniors while the Ivy does not. Mar 17, 2022 21:20:27 GMT -4 bison137 said: purplehaze Avatar Mar 17, 2022 19:24:44 GMT -4 purplehaze said: If the PL cannot compete successfully against the Ivies with full scholarship offers, our place at the bottom of D.1 will be permanent I think you are being a bit pessimistic. To begin, the Ivy League has consistently been among the top 12 conferences out of 32 in the country. To be worse than the Ivy does not mean that a league is bad. Some of the other leagues consistently worse than the Ivy have been the Atlantic 10, Conference USA, the MWC, and the CAA. Although worse than the Ivy, the Patriot League has been nowhere near the bottom of D1 in recent years. Generally has ranked between 19 and 23 out of the 32 conferences. And the Patriot league over the past six seasons has been much better than the MAAC, America East, and the NEC every single year. Note that both the Ivy and Patriot Leagues were a bit worse than normal this year, which I think mostly is a result of all the screwiness of the 2021 Covid year. I expect both of the leagues to be better next year.
Which team, among the teams that really are the only ones to compete regularly for the championship, failed to win this 2021-2022 season or play up to their usual standard in league play due to COVID in 2020-2021? Let's look at the four regulars and add the Crusaders in the mix too. Let's just stay in this year's league play for the moment. Bucknell: graduated 4 senior starters Boston: graduated starting pg Nelson and hired a new coach which is a ? at the moment Lehigh: Graduated two starters, injuries to three starters on the season the biggest of which was Hottinger American: graduated just one senior starter, got one back who took a season away, no significant injuries Holy Cross: line-up from 2020-21 returned intact for this season,no significant injuries So the two teams that returned the most top players and their coaching staffs (American and Holy Cross) had the most successful seasons. This happens when a usual power team like Bucknell graduates 4 starters. Saying that this season was 'screwy' due to covid implies that those two teams would not have achieved what they did without covid in 2020-21. I choose to give credit to the kids on those HC and American teams and their coaches. Talent graduated in 2021 and that was impactful for some and it was the biggest reason for the league being down across the board this year. These cycles are normal. And since we are talking about league play for this past season, no one had any "super seniors" to have an edge on the rest of the league. So, if you're a fan of a team in the league that didn't win it all this year in the PL, maybe it had very little to do with covid and more to do with graduating a key player(s), or a coaching change, or an injury. As far as Massey rating, check the non-conference scheduling. 6 coaching changes in 2 years is extraordinary in my view. When coaches know they might lose their job, or when a new coach comes in, they frequently load their non-conference schedule with easy wins vs. poor competition. Look at the schedules for Colgate, Loyola and Navy this year. All new coaches in the past 1 or 2 seasons. The out of conference schedules for them were terrible. And when you don't win those terrible games, that's impactful on Massey ratings. Also multiple teams scheduling D3s this season. Having several teams schedule so poorly, and not win those games, will sink the leagues' rating. If everyone scheduled like Bucknell, the rating would be higher. So the "super senior" issue. At least for this season, this is something PL teams could only encounter in non-conference games. So, out of the 100+ out of conference games, what games did a PL team that was expected to win, lose because the other team had a player using covid eligibility to play another senior season? Please correct me if I am in error, but didn't URI have a couple of "super seniors"? HC beat them, 66-54.
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Post by purplehaze on Mar 18, 2022 13:22:25 GMT -5
I don't have time to review the '100+ ooc games - but in general HC's ooc scheduling was soft yes, we had two good ooc W's in URI and Stetson that we deserve credit for - but 5 of the ooc W's were against the absolute bottom of D.1 and Conn College - we were not competitive vs. NU and BC When was the last time we played the better Ivies, such as Harvard and Yale ? (both day trips if away) - that's what I'm looking for in the ooc - along with a Providence which is not a giant killer these days
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Post by oldschoolhoops on Mar 18, 2022 13:29:18 GMT -5
I don't have time to review the '100+ ooc games - but in general HC's ooc scheduling was soft yes, we had two good ooc W's in URI and Stetson that we deserve credit for - but 5 of the ooc W's were against the absolute bottom of D.1 and Conn College - we were not competitive vs. NU and BC When was the last time we played the better Ivies, such as Harvard and Yale ? (both day trips if away) - that's what I'm looking for in the ooc - along with a Providence which is not a giant killer these days And HC had one of the those 6 new coaches from the past two seasons. Scheduling some wins (the D3, Dartmouth, UNH) to balance out the more challenging in region games that would be tough to drop. Win over URI, and very competitive games with UMass and Pitt. I am all for playing those 'better' Ivies, especially a quick trip to Harvard. Let's book it.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 18, 2022 14:34:57 GMT -5
I remember people here hating on hiring a D2 coach as a new head coach at HC. Princeton hired a D3 head coach as Berube was at Tufts. There was one guy who didn't like the Chesney hire. Go read the threads and then take a shift off. I think he disliked the Ray-Bans mostly.🙂
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