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Post by Tom on Apr 8, 2022 8:23:38 GMT -5
If this had been at St Paul's**, a diocesan school, the bishop would be within his rights and authority to enforce a no flag policy. He is literally in charge of that school. The Nativity school reports to the eastern US province of the Jesuits. The bishop does not have direct authority over the Nativity School. For what it's worth, I drove by the Nativity school the other day, and the Black Lives Matter flag is clearly flying. I did not see the rainbow gay pride flag, but there was no wind and I think the larger American flag was draped over the middle rainbow flag. Minor point, that I am fairly certain is not part of the bishop's issue, it doesn't look like the flags are properly spaced for multiple flags flying from one flag pole (which is why it is hard to make out the middle flag). Short version, while it might be bad form to disregard instructions from the local bishop, the school can and is still flying the flag.
About the only thing the bishop can really do is say that the school cannot identify itself as Catholic. He does have that authority. We have been here before. The same threat was leveled at Holy Cross a few years ago. I forget the reason, but I do know the status quo prevailed. Like this case, it stirred up a hornets' nest and sparked a lot of conversation for a short while and then the whole thing went away. I am predicting the same result here. The flags will stay up. The school will remain Catholic. Everybody will have a bad taste in their mouth for a period of time that will be forgotten by most in time
---------------------------------------- ** For those that have not kept up with the happenings in Worcester after graduating and leaving town, old time diocesan schools St Peter-Marian and Holy Name merged into one school. Unlike the old St Peter's and Marian High merger, this new merger got a whole new name of St Paul's
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Post by newfieguy74 on Apr 8, 2022 8:33:01 GMT -5
Didn't quite a few politicians express their support for defunding the police? I think the number is quite small.
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 8, 2022 8:45:43 GMT -5
About the only thing the bishop can really do is say that the school cannot identify itself as Catholic. He does have that authority. We have been here before. The same threat was leveled at Holy Cross a few years ago. I forget the reason, but I do know the status quo prevailed. Like this case, it stirred up a hornets' nest and sparked a lot of conversation for a short while and then the whole thing went away. I am predicting the same result here. The flags will stay up. The school will remain Catholic. Everybody will have a bad taste in their mouth for a period of time that will be forgotten by most in time Holy Cross was hosting a program for groups that served the Worcester Community. They had contracts with each group that was attending. The Bishop did not like the fact that one of the groups had a c connection to planned parenthood. He then demanded that Holy Cross exclude them or cancel the gathering. Holy Cross said its word was its bond and refused. HC was the "good guys" here IMHO.
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Apr 8, 2022 9:09:00 GMT -5
The Nativity School gets it’s financial support from the Catholic Church and Catholic organizations like Holy Cross. How much support does the school get from the BLM organization and “Pride” organizations? Not a big fan of the Bishop but he does have a right to question the schools motive for flying these flags.
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Post by mm67 on Apr 8, 2022 9:09:12 GMT -5
Defund the Police was the rallying cry of the few on the extreme left fringe. The mainstream, overwhelming majority rejected it categorically and roared back their opposition. Average people in urban communities stated their opposition to Defund and in fact have pointed to the need for more police. Eric Adams the Mayor of NYC has called for more police to better protect & serve without abusive & racist behavior. He has his finger on the pulse of City residents and is reflective of the mainstream D's/R's nationally. This recognition of the need for better policing has been the consensus for decades. Gotta' admit, it was a brilliant move to hurl the Defund slogan shouted by a few against the majority of the opposition whether true or not. Hope this is not too political. If it engenders a political outcry, this post can be easily deleted. P.eace.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Apr 8, 2022 9:13:10 GMT -5
About the only thing the bishop can really do is say that the school cannot identify itself as Catholic. He does have that authority. We have been here before. The same threat was leveled at Holy Cross a few years ago. I forget the reason, but I do know the status quo prevailed. Like this case, it stirred up a hornets' nest and sparked a lot of conversation for a short while and then the whole thing went away. I am predicting the same result here. The flags will stay up. The school will remain Catholic. Everybody will have a bad taste in their mouth for a period of time that will be forgotten by most in time Holy Cross was hosting a program for groups that served the Worcester Community. They had contracts with each group that was attending. The Bishop did not like the fact that one of the groups had a c connection to planned parenthood. He then demanded that Holy Cross exclude them or cancel the gathering. Holy Cross said its word was its bond and refused. HC was the "good guys" here IMHO. So HC was the "good guys" for aligning themselves with a organization that commits murders? Good to know where you stand Rob.
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 8, 2022 9:13:33 GMT -5
The Nativity School gets it’s financial support from the Catholic Church and Catholic organizations like Holy Cross. How much support does the school get from the BLM organization and “Pride” organizations? Not a big fan of the Bishop but he does have a right to question the schools motive for flying these flags. Did he question (as in ask about) their motives for flying the flags, or did he tell them to take the flags down. The first is certainly a way toward a positive dialogue, the second not nearly as positive and reflects some of his prior actions.
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Apr 8, 2022 9:16:55 GMT -5
The Nativity School gets it’s financial support from the Catholic Church and Catholic organizations like Holy Cross. How much support does the school get from the BLM organization and “Pride” organizations? Not a big fan of the Bishop but he does have a right to question the schools motive for flying these flags. Did he question (as in ask about) their motives for flying the flags, or did he tell them to take the flags down. The first is certainly a way toward a positive dialogue, the second not nearly as positive and reflects some of his prior actions. I believe he stated that both organizations promote ideas that are in conflict with church teaching. Again, not a fan of the Bishop, but he has the right to speak his mind. The church is not a democracy. If you don’t like the church teaching you can always find another church to join.
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 8, 2022 9:20:28 GMT -5
Holy Cross was hosting a program for groups that served the Worcester Community. They had contracts with each group that was attending. The Bishop did not like the fact that one of the groups had a c connection to planned parenthood. He then demanded that Holy Cross exclude them or cancel the gathering. Holy Cross said its word was its bond and refused. HC was the "good guys" here IMHO. So HC was the "good guys" for aligning themselves with a organization that commits murders? Good to know where you stand Rob. CTP, From your statement you seem to know nothing at all about me or where I stand. Planned parenthood was within one of the groups, not a separate one. Holy Cross signed a contract and thought it was important to keep their word to those providing information to the entire Worcester community. I also believe when you give your word to do something, that is important and should be supported. I support right to life and oppose capital punishment. I also have difficulty with the unilateral imposition of personal beliefs in a manner much like those used by Putin...but I guess facts are not important when you wish to make such a pronouncement. I am afraid your comment here reminds me of the attitude of a certain Bishop I have heard about recently.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Apr 8, 2022 9:30:37 GMT -5
Defund the Police was the rallying cry of the few on the extreme left fringe. A Minnesota congresswoman and many others in her circle sought to not only defund, but abolish the Minneapolis police. The former Mayor of New York City disbanded hundreds of plainclothed police officers -- those whose job it was to go after the most violent criminals. The mayor of Los Angeles proposed taking $150 million from police budgets and dispersing those monies to other initiatives. The VPOTUS agreed with the LA mayor and went on to say that the country needs to "re-imagine public safety." There are many others. Not sure these are just a "few on the extreme left fringe."
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Post by mm67 on Apr 8, 2022 9:46:47 GMT -5
It may be murder in the minds of us but there is more. Murder is a legal term as defined in the Penal Code. The definition arose out of over a thousand years of English Common Law, judges opinions held in common. Abortion has not met the definition of murder in the penal code. Why? Murder has been defined loosely as the intentional and malicious killing of a PERSON. (note emphasis.) Going back to Aquinas' time it was held personhood begins at birth and not before. Aborting a fetus has not traditionally been considered murder since abortion is not killing a person as terrible as that may be. In fact abortion was legal in some jurisdictions. Changing the legal definition of personhood could be considered a radical change in the law given the thousand years of precedent. Of course the basis of our views on abortion are based on the religious beliefs of some, thus abortion to many is murder regardless of the Penal Code. In the overturning of Roe, it will be interesting to see if the Court changes the traditional definition of personhood as a constitutional issue, gives the fetus rights and thus abortion is murder. Most likely, I expect the Court will avoid the issue and throw abortion back to the states to decide. And, then the fighting will truly erupt. Another interesting sidelight. If the fetus is legally a person, can a fetus claimi harm as represented by a guardian and sue for a variety of reasons?
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Post by hcpride on Apr 8, 2022 10:38:10 GMT -5
Defund the Police was the rallying cry of the few on the extreme left fringe. A Minnesota congressman and many others in her circle sought to not only defend, but abolish the Minneapolis police. The former Mayor of New York City disbanded hundreds of plainclothed police officers -- those whose job it was to go after the most violent criminals. The mayor of Los Angeles proposed taking $150 million from police budgets and dispersing those monies to other initiatives. The VPOTUS agreed with the LA mayor and went on to say that the country needs to "re-imagine public safety." There are many others. Not sure these are just a "few on the extreme left fringe." One of those radical chic ideas that sound really cool to a few loud mouths (high profile and otherwise) but normal folks quickly realize is completely whacked.
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Post by Tom on Apr 8, 2022 10:54:44 GMT -5
Randomly responding to a few people:
A few years ago, there was a small, but very vocal minority in our Holy Cross family that thought it was bad for Holy Cross to be associated with the word "Crusader" As a result of this pictures of knights have been removed from branding and there's no styrofoam cartoon character roaming the sidelines at sporting events. Maybe it is only the extreme left fringe that is anti-police, but sometimes vocal minorities can control the message. Maybe it's fair and maybe it's not, but there were enough "defund police" signs at black lives matter protests that the two movements are linked in many people's minds
In the opening post If the bishop thinks that the Black Lives Matter organization is promoting idea that are in conflict with church teaching. he surely didn't make that clear in the statement I'm not sure if trusting police comes under the heading of loving one's neighbor, but even if it did, the bishop, based on his statement, isn't associating the distrust with the organization, but with factions that have co-opted the flag. Either way. I'm not sure that flying the flag meets the standard of being in conflict with church teachings
I'm not sure it would have flown, but I might have suggested something like a blue light in the window so that everyone knew I recognize the dignity and worth of people who are black and also support law enforcement. Heck, it might have been a nice reminder that the two philosophies do not have to be mutually exclusive
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 8, 2022 11:33:03 GMT -5
Regarding symbols, I don't like the altered flag that has blue and black(?) stars or stripes that I've been told means pro-police. I'm pro-police, teachers, Doctors, Nurses, etc. But leave the beautiful American flag alone.
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Post by Tom on Apr 10, 2022 9:58:22 GMT -5
On a related note, the bishop as said he will not be attending the Holy Cross graduation.
Apparently there has been a petition on campus to have president Rougeau uninvite the bishop. I suppose it saves embarrassment on both sides for the bishop to take this action first
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 10, 2022 10:42:54 GMT -5
On a related note, the bishop as said he will not be attending the Holy Cross graduation. Apparently there has been a petition on campus to have president Rougeau uninvite the bishop. I suppose it saves embarrassment on both sides for the bishop to take this action first Now that the Bishop has escaped jury duty, any good ideas for an olive branch from any of the three actors (Nativity, HC, Bishop) to any of the others? The MA Governor leading a procession at Harvard's graduation is a 300 year or so tradition. (Actually many recent governors ie: Dukakis, Weld, Patrick, Baker, have attended Harvard or Harvard Law or both) I imagine the Bishop attending the HC graduation is a long tradition also. How could PVR facilitate a softening of the rancor between the students and the Bishop to allow this tradition to continue? Or is it none of his business?
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Post by mm67 on Apr 10, 2022 11:35:05 GMT -5
At one time it was a tradition for the governor to attend the HC Commencement, usually after Harvard.
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Post by CHC8485 on Apr 10, 2022 13:34:40 GMT -5
On a related note, the bishop as said he will not be attending the Holy Cross graduation. Apparently there has been a petition on campus to have president Rougeau uninvite the bishop. I suppose it saves embarrassment on both sides for the bishop to take this action first Now that the Bishop has escaped jury duty, any good ideas for an olive branch from any of the three actors (Nativity, HC, Bishop) to any of the others? The MA Governor leading a procession at Harvard's graduation is a 300 year or so tradition. (Actually many recent governors ie: Dukakis, Weld, Patrick, Baker, have attended Harvard or Harvard Law or both) I imagine the Bishop attending the HC graduation is a long tradition also. How could PVR facilitate a softening of the rancor between the students and the Bishop to allow this tradition to continue? Or is it none of his business? The bishop of Worcester (and I believe before there was a Worcester Diocese, the bishop of Springfield) attending the HC graduation is a long tradition, that this bishop has not followed recently. I believe he skipped the 2018 Commencement (not sure why), my daughter's graduation ('19) I believe because of the Professor Liew debacle and some comments critical of the Bishop 2 HC Deans made following some remarks the bishop made about transgendered individuals in an address. There was no 2020 commencement and he was not there in 2021 (again, no clue why). I'm certain he skipped the 2008 Commencement due to the Fall 2007 teen pregnancy conference, that had also been held at HC the prior 5 or 6 years, because it included some level of participation by Planned Parenthood & NARAL. HC honored the commitment it made for that year and then ended the relationship with the organization sponsoring the conference for future events. And I suspect there have been one or 2 others he skipped for instance, 2003 when Chris Matthews spoke at graduation. I'm not denying that is his prerogative, and can understand the 2008 stance, but it seems extraordinarily petty exhibition of power to me to stay away in the case of Chris Matthews, Prof. Liew, your own trans-phobic remarks, and flying flags to allow non-Catholics know they are welcome. State you case, voice your concern or condemnation, but 2 months from now, who is going to take his attendance as either a statement of support of any of the other issues. Trust me, in 2019 very few in attendance noted his absence at the ceremony, including the Diocesan newspaper.
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 10, 2022 13:42:05 GMT -5
Not sure of your intent, but which is the flag that shows non-Catholics they are welcome?
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Post by Tom on Apr 10, 2022 14:15:14 GMT -5
I'm not denying that is his prerogative, and can understand the 2008 stance, but it seems extraordinarily petty exhibition of power to me to stay away in the case of Chris Matthews, Prof. Liew, your own trans-phobic remarks, and flying flags to allow non-Catholics know they are welcome. State you case, voice your concern or condemnation, but 2 months from now, who is going to take his attendance as either a statement of support of any of the other issues. Also possible that skipping the graduation avoids the potential embarrassment of being uninvited by the school if president Rougeau decided to go along with the wishes of the petitioners. I agree not too many members of the class of 2022 will care much if the bishop isn't there
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Post by higheredguy on Apr 10, 2022 17:36:48 GMT -5
I'm not denying that is his prerogative, and can understand the 2008 stance, but it seems extraordinarily petty exhibition of power to me to stay away in the case of Chris Matthews, Prof. Liew, your own trans-phobic remarks, and flying flags to allow non-Catholics know they are welcome. State you case, voice your concern or condemnation, but 2 months from now, who is going to take his attendance as either a statement of support of any of the other issues. Also possible that skipping the graduation avoids the potential embarrassment of being uninvited by the school if president Rougeau decided to go along with the wishes of the petitioners. I agree not too many members of the class of 2022 will care much if the bishop isn't there By the looks of it, the students will be glad. There are around 160ish members of the class of '22 on that petition.
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Post by rf1 on Apr 12, 2022 10:02:13 GMT -5
Who cares what this bishop says? His words and threats are meaningless and become even more so with each silly culture war fight he starts and loses. McManus seems intent on achieving complete irrelevance.
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Post by beaven302 on Apr 12, 2022 11:38:28 GMT -5
At one time it was a tradition for the governor to attend the HC Commencement, usually after Harvard. Yes, it was. I recall that Gov. Volpe spoke at the 1967 graduation.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 12, 2022 14:22:00 GMT -5
The Nativity School gets it’s financial support from the Catholic Church and Catholic organizations like Holy Cross. How much support does the school get from the BLM organization and “Pride” organizations? Not a big fan of the Bishop but he does have a right to question the schools motive for flying these flags. The Nativity School gets it's financial support from the Catholic Church... Not contradicting you on the facts, but if the Catholic Church had extra money, wouldn't they use it to keep their own Diocesan Schools and Churches open? I recall the Nativity School getting started with gifts from donors who surely were Catholic, but from their own money, not the Church's. HC may have given some, but I think most came from individuals, many who were Jesuit educated.
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Post by mm67 on Apr 12, 2022 15:22:50 GMT -5
At one time it was a tradition for the governor to attend the HC Commencement, usually after Harvard. Yes, it was. I recall that Gov. Volpe spoke at the 1967 graduation. Yup!
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