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Post by longsuffering on Apr 15, 2022 23:45:00 GMT -5
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Post by princetoncrusader on Apr 16, 2022 11:04:24 GMT -5
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Post by Chu Chu on Apr 16, 2022 11:49:15 GMT -5
Wow. I didn't know about this until reading the article. "The Pegulas were essentially able to extort New York taxpayers by threatening to relocate the team if they didn’t pay up." Exactly!
"This threat was a slap in the face of loyal Bills fans who have supported the team for over 60 years through subzero temperatures, lake-effect snow, four straight Super Bowl losses in the 1990s and more losing seasons than winning ones." You bet it was.
Here in the Northwest US, tax payers are still paying off bonds for the old Kingdome that was demolished several years ago. In the aftermath, we then lost the NBA Seattle Supersonics after that experience, when taxpayers refused to approve a subsidized new arena, and the new owner moved the team to Oklahoma City. Subsequently, the lesson seems to have been learned, and the new football and baseball stadia are built with private money. It is beyond irresponsible for struggling state and local public funds to be spent on facilities for billionaire owners.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Apr 16, 2022 11:52:35 GMT -5
NY state taxpayers are getting served an absolute turd in this deal. I say if the owners can't pony up, let them move to Toronto and "don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out".
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Apr 16, 2022 11:54:46 GMT -5
Wow. I didn't know about this until reading the article. "The Pegulas were essentially able to extort New York taxpayers by threatening to relocate the team if they didn’t pay up." Exactly!
"This threat was a slap in the face of loyal Bills fans who have supported the team for over 60 years through subzero temperatures, lake-effect snow, four straight Super Bowl losses in the 1990s and more losing seasons than winning ones." You bet it was.
Here in the Northwest US, tax payers are still paying off bonds for the old Kingdome that was demolished several years ago. In the aftermath, we then lost the NBA Seattle Supersonics after that experience, when taxpayers refused to approve a subsidized new arena, and the new owner moved the team to Oklahoma City. Subsequently, the lesson seems to have been learned, and the new football and baseball stadia are built with private money. It is beyond irresponsible for struggling state and local public funds to be spent on facilities for billionaire owners.
If they were Russian, we'd call them "oligarchs". I know the word "fascism" has been loosely and haphazardly tossed around for much of the last 3-5 years, but this kind of thing is literally the definition.
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Post by mm67 on Apr 16, 2022 12:55:54 GMT -5
Dr. Matheson has been a lonely voice in the wilderness. His response is predictable. Are there any positive externalities which might not be apparent? I am not hinting at anything. Merely, trying find any benefits. I am not a fan of taxpayer money used for stadia, for instance UConn football. Is there something we are missing? NO!!!
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Apr 16, 2022 13:13:36 GMT -5
Cities do all their calculations on attendance, added hotel nights and restaurant meals generating incremental taxes, etc to get the full economic benefit of the team. Then when the calculations still have the city in the red, they pivot and decide that they need to be seen as a "major league city", as in "we're just as important as New York and Boston and Chicago". So they tell themselves-"well, we don't make money off our beautiful city parks, but they add to the appeal and vibrancy of the city. This team is just the same".
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Post by mm67 on Apr 16, 2022 13:49:59 GMT -5
Cities do all their calculations on attendance, added hotel nights and restaurant meals generating incremental taxes, etc to get the full economic benefit of the team. Then when the calculations still have the city in the red, they pivot and decide that they need to be seen as a "major league city", as in "we're just as important as New York and Boston and Chicago". So they tell themselves-"well, we don't make money off our beautiful city parks, but they add to the appeal and vibrancy of the city. This team is just the same". Thank you for your insights.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 16, 2022 13:57:07 GMT -5
I would enjoy the Professor doing an analysis of whether the Kraft Family has benefitted more by owning Gillette Stadium outright as opposed to if the State owned it and the Krafts had made the percentage contribution that was average for franchises at the time of construction.
I bet the Krafts have done quite well. Prof. Matheson could use any other privately owned stadium, but he won't find any other franchises that regularly hosted Father Brooks (and Father Miller?) in the owner's box. So the Pats might be the most forthcoming.
The new NY Gov. is from Western NY, as opposed to Gov. Cuomo who was from the city. I wonder if that helped loosen the purse strings.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Apr 16, 2022 14:27:14 GMT -5
I would enjoy the Professor doing an analysis of whether the Kraft Family has benefitted more by owning Gillette Stadium outright as opposed to if the State owned it and the Krafts had made the percentage contribution that was average for franchises at the time of construction. I bet the Krafts have done quite well. Prof. Matheson could use any other privately owned stadium, but he won't find any other franchises that regularly hosted Father Brooks (and Father Miller?) in the owner's box. So the Pats might be the most forthcoming. The new NY Gov. is from Western NY, as opposed to Gov. Cuomo who was from the city. I wonder if that helped loosen the purse strings.That and the fact that her husband's company is set to benefit financially from the new stadium.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Apr 16, 2022 14:36:56 GMT -5
Dr. Matheson has been a lonely voice in the wilderness. His response is predictable. Are there any positive externalities which might not be apparent? I am not hinting at anything. Merely, trying find any benefits. I am not a fan of taxpayer money used for stadia, for instance UConn football. Is there something we are missing? NO!!! Some "positive externalities" might include: 1) Increased revenue from local cable companies b/c sports fans want to be able to watch local team. 2) Increased revenue at small businesses b/c local sports fans spend more $$ at local bars and restaurants to watch their teams' games on TV. 3) Non-financial quality of life benefits that might include youth getting into playing a sport because of the connection to their local team, and otherwise steering clear of drugs, crime, "the streets", etc. Also, a "common struggle" is something that can bring people together i.e. being a Cubs or Red Sox fan and waiting 80-100 years for a championship. Same goes for getting closer to an estranged spouse, for example, because you fell back in love watching the Bengals playoff run this year or when LeBron led the Cavs to Cleveland's first sports championship in 75+ years. 4) Family bonding opportunities and corporate business opportunities that might arise from spending a day at the ballpark. But there are also "unseen" negatives, much of which can be attributed to the economic phenomenon known as "crowding out". Examples of this would be people who live close to a venue and opt not to patronize local businesses because they don't want to be around all the tourists and big crowds. Or locals who steer clear of the area because they don't want to deal with traffic or lack of parking. Or full hotels attributed to visiting fans that may have been full anyway with people visiting town for other reasons.
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Post by mm67 on Apr 16, 2022 14:41:19 GMT -5
Two thoughts. Risk to Reward for the Bills? Public financing would be irresistible, no? Possibly, Gov Cuomo from downstate might have approved the same deal to shore up any electoral weakness upstate? This stuff is crazy!
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Post by crusader12 on Apr 17, 2022 19:37:19 GMT -5
Taxpayer money has been spent on way worse in the state of New York…
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Post by bfoley82 on Apr 18, 2022 16:28:33 GMT -5
Dr. Matheson has been a lonely voice in the wilderness. His response is predictable. Are there any positive externalities which might not be apparent? I am not hinting at anything. Merely, trying find any benefits. I am not a fan of taxpayer money used for stadia, for instance UConn football. Is there something we are missing? NO!!! And UConn's stadium was built for only 92 million. The new Bills Stadium is getting $850 million of public funds nearly 10 times....
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Post by timholycross on Apr 19, 2022 10:08:24 GMT -5
Dr. Matheson has been a lonely voice in the wilderness. His response is predictable. Are there any positive externalities which might not be apparent? I am not hinting at anything. Merely, trying find any benefits. I am not a fan of taxpayer money used for stadia, for instance UConn football. Is there something we are missing? NO!!! And UConn's stadium was built for only 92 million. The new Bills Stadium is getting $850 million of public funds nearly 10 times.... You might want to adjust that for what 92 million would get you in 2022 or 2023 versus 20 years ago. And for a place with half the seats and considerably less amenities.
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Post by Tom on Apr 19, 2022 11:18:02 GMT -5
Dr. Matheson has been a lonely voice in the wilderness. His response is predictable. Are there any positive externalities which might not be apparent? I am not hinting at anything. Merely, trying find any benefits. I am not a fan of taxpayer money used for stadia, for instance UConn football. Is there something we are missing? NO!!! I don't think that UConn, or any state university, is a fair comparison. In Buffalo they're using taxpayer money to benefit a private entity. UConn is not a private entity. One could reasonably argue whether or not they needed a new stadium, but if you accept the fact that they did, who else but the taxpayers could pick up the tab? Just like the taxpayers would pick up the tab if they put a new dorm or science lab up at UConn
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Post by mm67 on Apr 19, 2022 12:56:04 GMT -5
Tom, With all due respect and great affection - You truly do not think there are any private interests benefiting from the taxpayer handout to build UConn's stadium in Hartford(Rentschler?)? Peace.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 19, 2022 13:25:32 GMT -5
CT wanted a stadium for the Patriots and UConn then downsized the plans to build a serviceable one for an FBS UConn FB team. The Pats cut bait after MA agreed to enough infrastructure work to make the privately funded Gillette Stadium work.
TD Boston Garden was similar as I recall. Public funding for infrastructure work involving North Station and perhaps roadways, but the arena is privately owned. Fenway Park is privately owned.
MA has been freer with the cash for outlying cities like Worcester (DCU Center) and Springfield (Mass Mutual Center). Not sure about Tsongas Arena in Lowell. Polar Park is owned by the city.
Kind of Smart to let the major league teams in the major league city (Foxborough is just a berg but the NFL is major league) privately finance it's stadia and buck up the minor league cities to support the regional economy and quality of life/recreational opportunities.
Hartford and Buffalo aren't major league cities to the extent Boston is which complicates matters but the public spending on the Bills is way overboard. I don't fault CT, it's Husky FB that hasn't carried the ball over the goal line.
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Post by Tom on Apr 19, 2022 14:14:38 GMT -5
Tom, With all due respect and great affection - You truly do not think there are any private interests benefiting from the taxpayer handout to build UConn's stadium in Hartford(Rentschler?)? Peace. I am sure there are private interests that benefit. However, the primary tenant of the stadium is still the state. If you take it as a given that UConn needed a stadium than it's up to UConn to build that stadium. That is very different than the Bills wanting someone else to build a stadium for them.
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Apr 19, 2022 14:45:44 GMT -5
I thought teams and the NFL would be more careful about threats to move the team after St. Louis won an $800 million lawsuit against the NFL and the Rams. The LA deal for the Rams must have been that much more lucrative.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 19, 2022 15:06:24 GMT -5
St. Louis is a two time loser with the Cardinals and Rams and they are litigants against an NFL franchise. They will probably have to overpay to get a third franchise and wouldn't be surprised if they try to sometime in the future.
San Diego, Oakland, St. Louis. I'm glad the blue collar fans in Western NY will get to keep their Bills.
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Post by timholycross on Apr 19, 2022 15:19:11 GMT -5
St. Louis is a two time loser with the Cardinals and Rams and they are litigants against an NFL franchise. They will probably have to overpay to get a third franchise and wouldn't be surprised if they try to sometime in the future. San Diego, Oakland, St. Louis. I'm glad the blue collar fans in Western NY will get to keep their Bills. Four time loser, in terms of pro franchises lost in our sporting fan lifetimes. Rams, Cardinals, Hawks, Spirit (not chosen for the merger like the Spurs and 3 or 4 others were). San Diego and KC neck-and-neck with them.
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Post by Tom on Apr 19, 2022 15:48:55 GMT -5
St. Louis is a two time loser with the Cardinals and Rams and they are litigants against an NFL franchise. They will probably have to overpay to get a third franchise and wouldn't be surprised if they try to sometime in the future. San Diego, Oakland, St. Louis. I'm glad the blue collar fans in Western NY will get to keep their Bills. Oakland lost the Raiders twice. LA lost the Raiders and the Rams to join the multiple NFL loser club . Some cities get more love than others. Houston and Cleveland both lost teams and got fast tracked for expansion
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 19, 2022 16:05:22 GMT -5
Boston lost the Whalers, Braves and Redskins, er I mean the Boston Football team.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 19, 2022 16:09:19 GMT -5
If you add the teams who moved to NJ to the ones who left for the coast, NYC is up there.
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