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Post by cfrivals on Nov 14, 2016 23:43:27 GMT -5
I thought I should move this post to its own thread
It's the same song over and over. When we joined the PL in BB and FB, we said goodbye to having a chance to play high level sports, it has damaged this school beyond repair! Yes we have had a couple blips on the BB side, but for the most part we get crushed every time we play a BCS school. FB is a different story. We were the talk of the college football world in 86'and 87' and we threw it all away for the good ole PL. It is not coming back anytime soon!! As much as I like the $ investment, the emphasis should have been BB and Hockey plain and simple, just seems like we are underfunding what should be overfunded.
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Post by rgs318 on Nov 15, 2016 7:42:49 GMT -5
If the school is "damaged beyond repair" why would any of this matter? I see a different picture. HC is now moving in a better direction with facilities, coaching, scholarships, and the overall image of HC Sports and the school as a whole. The renewed energy is good to see. Change does not come overnight, so I am willing to be patient - at 71, that probably means for the balance of my life. I think the future is brighter. Will HC football get better - yes. Will it be with a new coach? We will see soon enough. Patience.
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Post by alum on Nov 15, 2016 8:07:26 GMT -5
I thought I should move this post to its own thread It's the same song over and over. When we joined the PL in BB and FB, we said goodbye to having a chance to play high level sports, it has damaged this school beyond repair! Yes we have had a couple blips on the BB side, but for the most part we get crushed every time we play a BCS school. FB is a different story. We were the talk of the college football world in 86'and 87' and we threw it all away for the good ole PL. It is not coming back anytime soon!! As much as I like the $ investment, the emphasis should have been BB and Hockey plain and simple, just seems like we are underfunding what should be overfunded.
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Post by bigfan on Nov 15, 2016 8:24:15 GMT -5
cfrivals and alum are right. The PL has damaged HC football and basketball.
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Post by rgs318 on Nov 15, 2016 8:47:35 GMT -5
cfrivals and alum are right. The PL has damaged HC football and basketball. Yes, football and basketball were damaged. I have no disagreement there. But, IMHO, they were not "damaged beyond repair" as was stated by one poster above. The road back to where we once were is a long one and will have some setbacks, but remains are being made and will continue to be made. To ignore that means all on is looking at is one's own agenda, not what is really going on. BTW, I remember seeing HC get pounded back in the old days when we played Syracuse, and others in football and hoops. It was not all wine and roses then either. I was among those calling for some league/conference affiliation because as independents we could have a good season and it seemed to take us nowhere. We also had losses to the Ivies and to schools that were not high level programs by any means. Memory can be a funny thing, especially when one was not there when things happened. PS: I may not have gotten his entire post, but it appears that alum only copied what cfrivals said and did not add anything to it or comment on it. PPS: If HC is not competitive in the Patriot League, perhaps that should be the first step in improving. It has been said by others, but until that happens we might stop trying to blame every shortcoming on the PL that is pinning our ears back in football. Perhaps that is too extreme.
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Post by matunuck on Nov 15, 2016 8:50:37 GMT -5
The New York Times
October 29, 1987
Holy Cross Rolls On in College Football
By WILLIAM N. WALLACE
How good is Holy Cross, unbeaten after seven games in which it has outscored opponents by 337-81?
The answer may never come because Boston College is gone from the schedule, and Colonial League rules prohibit Holy Cross from playing in the Division I-AA playoffs.
If there are any complaints, they don't come from the players. ''We never talk about anything like that,'' said David Mitchell, a senior linebacker.
''When the season began, we knew what was ahead for us and we had our goals: an unbeaten season and the Colonial League championship. When the last game comes, I'm sure we'll go into it with tremendous enthusiasm. Meanwhile, the coaches are keeping us thinking just one game at a time.'' 170-Pount Quarterback The Crusaders are good by any standard. Consider Jeff Wiley, the compact quarterback who directs an offense that separates defenses into 11 vulnerable islands. He has passed for an average of 326 yards per game, thrown for 24 touchdowns and has completed 68.5 percent of his 238 attempts. A junior pre-med student, Wiley is only 5 feet 10 inches and 170 pounds.
Saturday, the Crusaders, who clinched the Colonial championship two games ago and beat Brown, one of the Ivy League leaders, 41-0, last Saturday, go to Amherst, Mass., to play Massachusetts of the Yankee Conference.
The Yankee Conference puts more emphasis on football than the Colonial League. The Yankee champion qualifies for the I-AA playoffs, and each team is allowed 70 athletic scholarships and two weeks of spring practice.
But Masschusetts has won only two of its seven games and there is no reason to believe it will fare any better against the Crusaders than did the Ivies' Brown and Dartmouth; the Colonials' Bucknell, Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh; or even Army, the only Division I-A team on the Holy Cross schedule.
Holy Cross will then play Harvard (5-1), William & Mary (2-5) and Villanova (5-1), which will join the Yankee Conference next season. National Exposure Ahead
The last game will be played at Villanova on Nov. 19, a Thursday night, and ESPN will provide the first and only national viewing this season of Wiley, the renowned Gordie Lockbaum and the other Crusaders.
This year, for the first time since 1943, and only the third time since 1896, Boston College will not be the last game on the schedule.
The Rev. John E. Brooks, the president of Holy Cross, canceled the series last December because Boston College was supporting a major Division I-A program.
Amid some grumbling from Crusader alumni, Father Brooks had committed the college to the Colonial League and had agreed to phase out its athletic scholarships by 1991.
The new affiliation seemed reasonable after Boston College routed last year's team, considered to be the best in Holy Cross history, by a score of 56-26.
The current team, however, is better. All of the players are back, and the coach, Mark Duffner, has amplified the offense. And the defense is so strong it no longer needs Lockbaum, who plays there only occasionally as an extra defensive back.
On offense, where he is being used more as a receiver than as a runner in the single-back offense, Lockbaum has 15 touchdowns.
These factors may have diminished his Heisman Trophy chances, but that was all part of Duffner's preseason plan, which had Lockbaum's enthusiastic endorsement. Fullback Is Impressive
The Massachusetts defenders will be chasing Lockbaum and the other receivers, Wally Dembowski, Rick Lane and Lee Hull, all over the field while Wiley, protected impeccably by the linemen, reads the receivers' routes like a menu. If, by chance, he can't find an open man, he will tuck the ball into the midsection of Tom Kelleher, the 235-pound fullback.
''I like that Kelleher,'' said Tom Boisture, the Giants' director of player personnel. Boisture is an authority on Holy Cross football, having been the coach there in 1967 and 1968, and in 1980 and 1981 the father of the quarterback, Dave Boisture.
''It's a great-looking team,'' said Boisture, who said the Crusaders would probably have given Boston College a battle.
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Post by zambonihomie13 on Nov 15, 2016 10:01:16 GMT -5
cfrivals and alum are right. The PL has damaged HC football and basketball. Yes, football and basketball were damaged. I have no disagreement there. But, IMHO, they were not "damaged beyond repair" as was stated by one poster above. The road back to where we once were is a long one and will have some setbacks, but remains are being made and will continue to be made. To ignore that means all on is looking at is one's own agenda, not what is really going on. BTW, I remember seeing HC get pounded back in the old days when we played Syracuse, and others in football and hoops. It was not all wine and roses then either. I was among those calling for some league/conference affiliation because as independents we could have a good season and it seemed to take us nowhere. We also had losses to the Ivies and to schools that were not high level programs by any means. Memory can be a funny thing, especially when one was not there when things happened. PS: I may not have gotten his entire post, but it appears that alum only copied what cfrivals said and did not add anything to it or comment on it. PPS: If HC is not competitive in the Patriot League, perhaps that should be the first step in improving. It has been said by others, but until that happens we might stop trying to blame every shortcoming on the PL that is pinning our ears back in football. Perhaps that is too extreme. Nice post rgs. Not sure what other options are out there right now for HC besides the PL, and note even sure what other conference affiliations were viable options in late 80's, early 90's that would be better than PL. First step is dominating PL before seeing what other doors open, but obviously that first step is a long way away.
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Post by hc87 on Nov 15, 2016 10:07:43 GMT -5
The horse has left the barn and then the bank took back the barn basically.....what we can (and should) do is mitigate our losses somehow. Football has to improve on the gridiron itself. All the other factors are essentially there for the school to have a competitive 1-AA program. I know postahs like realism and others don't agree but I see no reason why we can't potentially field a team similar in caliber to a Lehigh, Fordham and Colgate....much less a Villanova or Richmond if we (administration, alumni, coaches etc) put a concerted effort into doing so. Basketball-wise....we're basically 1-AA in basketball...let's not kid ourselves. That being said, we can hopefully put a product on the court that is a viable contendah most years in the PL and every once or twice a decade have a team that has a decent shot in beating a Goliath in the NCAAs. I think we're close to doing the latter....a lot of work is needed for the formah.
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Post by nhteamer on Nov 15, 2016 10:20:04 GMT -5
Just admit it was Fr Brooks that left the barn door open and stop speaking of him as if he was a combination of JP III, Pedro Arrupi (sp?) and George Washington!
Just admit it....please
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Post by rgs318 on Nov 15, 2016 11:03:56 GMT -5
Just admit it was Fr Brooks that left the barn door open and stop speaking of him as if he was a combination of JP III, Pedro Arrupi (sp?) and George Washington! Just admit it....please His intentions were good - no doubt about that. However, he was way off target in terms of the impact of his decisions regarding sports and scholarships. He also was foolish to believe the promises made by Harvard and other IL administrators. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, HC should not have gone in that direction.
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Post by nhteamer on Nov 15, 2016 11:09:07 GMT -5
Cannot believe no one has inquired about my avatar......fits the thread
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Nov 15, 2016 11:53:35 GMT -5
Just admit it was Fr Brooks that left the barn door open and stop speaking of him as if he was a combination of JP III, Pedro Arrupi (sp?) and George Washington! Just admit it....please His intentions were good - no doubt about that. However, he was way off target in terms of the impact of his decisions regarding sports and scholarships. He also was foolish to believe the promises made by Harvard and other IL administrators. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, HC should not have gone in that direction. The direction that HC should have gone was to drop down to Div. III. Otherwise, with an enrollment between 2,500 and 3,000, and rigidly intent on remaining strictly liberal arts, HC would be the small fish in a big pond. Three years before the NY Times article cited by Matunuck, the Supreme Court essentially decreed that schools such as HC would be small fish for the rest of their institutional lives. From Wiki I'm sorry, but a school with an undergraduate (and total student) population of 2,900 does not have the student base, the alumni base, or the fan base to support a FBS football program and a high major basketball program. It can't support a high major basketball program and a major conference ice hockey program. I suppose it could try the latter, and find itself financially diminished like PC. ___________________________ For those who matriculated at HC in the 1960s, did anyone ever hear of a yearning (on-campus or off), to watch LSU and Georgia again playing at Fitton Field (as happened 25-30 years before)? Or questioning why can't HC-Harvard draw 50,000 to the Stadium anymore?
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Post by alum on Nov 15, 2016 11:57:05 GMT -5
I agree that Father Brooks erred in not joining the Big East. That said, it would have been impossible for the College to have both competed in football (even at the IAA/FCS level) and have simultaneously competed in Big East both in the 80's and today. The Big East opportunity came at the same time as the need to start complying with Title IX. Membership in the Big East would have required substantial commitments as to what we called "minor" sports in those days. You will recall that around 1979 men's teams other than hoops and football lost virtually all scholarship help so the College could meet its obligations under federal law. Those women's teams (still in the AIAW as the NCAA was solely a men's organization in those days) initially played D2 schedules and some were quite successful. I cannot say that this would have been true in D1 Big East. Had those men's teams tried to compete in the Big East without scholarships, it would have been a complete disaster. The only solution would have been to drop several minor sports, or drop football (or reduce it to D3 which would have been allowed in those days.) Now, I like HC football but I would have loved HC basketball in the Big East.
I have no problem questioning Father Brooks' decision but it is unrealistic to think we could have survived in all of the other sports had we joined the Big East.
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Post by rgs318 on Nov 15, 2016 12:05:58 GMT -5
For those who matriculated at HC in the 1960s, did anyone ever hear of a yearning (on-campus or off), to watch LSU and Georgia again playing at Fitton Field (as happened 25-30 years before)? Or questioning why can't HC-Harvard draw 50,000 to the Stadium anymore? No, I never heard either of those things. I do remember a few folks wondering why HC still scheduled teams that were blowing our doors off.
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Post by rickii on Nov 15, 2016 12:14:41 GMT -5
Just admit it was Fr Brooks that left the barn door open and stop speaking of him as if he was a combination of JP III, Pedro Arrupi (sp?) and George Washington! Just admit it....please His intentions were good - no doubt about that. However, he was way off target in terms of the impact of his decisions regarding sports and scholarships. He also was foolish to believe the promises made by Harvard and other IL administrators. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, HC should not have gone in that direction. Always regrettably, nht is right.
And respectfully rgs, his intentions were triggered by the infamous ultimatum delivered by Derek Bok.
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Post by matunuck on Nov 15, 2016 12:19:21 GMT -5
We should have kept our basketball program out of the CL/PL like other schools did with what they viewed as their premiere sport. And no, the CL/PL wouldn't have collapsed had we done so. On this score, HC did no favors for the city of Worcester. It is what it is, but I don't think the AI has done much for us. We had smart kids before it and would be just fine without it. Just look at Villanova, Georgetown, Davidson, BC, ND, etc --
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Post by rgs318 on Nov 15, 2016 12:20:27 GMT -5
His intentions were good - no doubt about that. However, he was way off target in terms of the impact of his decisions regarding sports and scholarships. He also was foolish to believe the promises made by Harvard and other IL administrators. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, HC should not have gone in that direction. Always regrettably, nht is right.
And respectfully rgs, his intentions were triggered by the infamous ultimatum delivered by Derek Bok.
It was Bok that I was referring to when I posted: "He also was foolish to believe the promises made by Harvard and other IL administrators" I could have called them threats, but I was trying to be kind. I don't agree that was the only (or even the primary) reason.
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Post by Chu Chu on Nov 15, 2016 13:14:15 GMT -5
For all of the reasons above, we are where we are. Now, we must look to the future. To me, the most reasonable path forward is this:
1.) Upgrade facilities 2.) Add scholarships 3.) Hire the best AD we can find, who then goes after and hires the best coaches 4.) Start a dedicated athletic fund to support recruiting and an improved athlete experience at all levels 5.) Promote the various programs with imaginative game scheduling and new venues. 6.) Dominate the Patriot League, where the institutions are our relative peers in terms of size and mission. 7.) Then, decide what to do next.
The plan above appears to be in place. I honestly believe that our role as faithful fans and alums is to lend our support, in order for the plan to be successful. It will not be without us. Go Cross!
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Post by beaven302 on Nov 15, 2016 14:05:17 GMT -5
cfrivals and alum are right. The PL has damaged HC football and basketball. BTW, I remember seeing HC get pounded back in the old days when we played Syracuse, and others in football and hoops. It was not all wine and roses then either. I was among those calling for some league/conference affiliation because as independents we could have a good season and it seemed to take us nowhere. We also had losses to the Ivies and to schools that were not high level programs by any means. Memory can be a funny thing, especially when one was not there when things happened. +1 Yes, past history is often selective. I recall that in 1966 holding Syracuse to 0-0 tie at half-time in a game that was eventually lost 28-6 was considered something of a moral victory. That team, which would go on to beat BC 32-26, played a stinker the next week at Buffalo losing 35-3, and played in front of a relatively small crowd while beating UConn a week before the BC game. Yes, Brooks's decision to join the CL predictably resulted in a largely lost era in the history of HC sports, but there's no reason why the damage can't be eventually repaired.
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 15, 2016 14:22:35 GMT -5
Especially when teams like Fordham and Villanova totally dropped football and had club football teams and then "came back."
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Post by rgs318 on Nov 15, 2016 14:31:21 GMT -5
BTW, I remember seeing HC get pounded back in the old days when we played Syracuse, and others in football and hoops. It was not all wine and roses then either. I was among those calling for some league/conference affiliation because as independents we could have a good season and it seemed to take us nowhere. We also had losses to the Ivies and to schools that were not high level programs by any means. Memory can be a funny thing, especially when one was not there when things happened. +1 Yes, past history is often selective. I recall that in 1966 holding Syracuse to 0-0 tie at half-time in a game that was eventually lost 28-6 was considered something of a moral victory. That team, which would go on to beat BC 32-26, played a stinker the next week at Buffalo losing 35-3, and played in front of a relatively small crowd while beating UConn a week before the BC game. Yes, Brooks's decision to join the CL predictably resulted in a largely lost era in the history of HC sports, but there's no reason why the damage can't be eventually repaired. I think, IIRC, it was actually HC up by 3-0 at the half. The FG by Mike Kaminski was strange. It went through the uprights and then was blown back by the wind. The officials had to confer to se if it was good - only time I have ever seen that happen. HC got the ball to tart the second half. It looked great. Then on the third play, a Syracuse lineman stood up, caught the low pass in two hands and rumbled into the endzone. It was downhill after that as the Orange used their size and numbers to wear HC down.
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Post by hc811215 on Nov 15, 2016 15:18:29 GMT -5
While there is no dispute that the PL has not helped our sports generally, there really is no excuse for being this bad within the PL. Over the past five seasons our record in the PL is 10-20 with no winning records (best was last season's 3-3). The PL was supposed to get us Ivy games which were supposed to be competitive. Our record against Ivys in the last 5 seasons is 2-9. We really need a coaching change. We have to become competitive within our league before we can think about going elsewhere.
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Post by timholycross on Nov 15, 2016 15:52:15 GMT -5
What I hope to see is Lehigh and (hopefully they make it) Fordham give the FCS iron a run for their money in the upcoming weeks. It turns out HC got pounded by someone who's good it does offer a little hope; the playing field should be level.
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Post by beaven302 on Nov 15, 2016 16:37:43 GMT -5
+1 Yes, past history is often selective. I recall that in 1966 holding Syracuse to 0-0 tie at half-time in a game that was eventually lost 28-6 was considered something of a moral victory. That team, which would go on to beat BC 32-26, played a stinker the next week at Buffalo losing 35-3, and played in front of a relatively small crowd while beating UConn a week before the BC game. Yes, Brooks's decision to join the CL predictably resulted in a largely lost era in the history of HC sports, but there's no reason why the damage can't be eventually repaired. I think, IIRC, it was actually HC up by 3-0 at the half. The FG by Mike Kaminski was strange. It went through the uprights and then was blown back by the wind. The officials had to confer to se if it was good - only time I have ever seen that happen. HC got the ball to tart the second half. It looked great. Then on the third play, a Syracuse lineman stood up, caught the low pass in two hands and rumbled into the endzone. It was downhill after that as the Orange used their size and numbers to wear HC down. I recall the refs having their conference and then disallowing the field goal much to everyone's consternation And that surprise interception early in the second half was a real downer. After that, the main highlight was watching my then-roommate, substitute lineman, Ray Weaver, sack the Syracuse quarterback. Afterwards, he explained that he'd grabbed him by the pads and pulled him down. Another point about that Syracuse game was that it drew a crowd. When we tried to sit in the usual student section, we were redirected to less-desirable seats closer to the end zone. Our normal seats had gone to the ticket-buying public.
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Post by timholycross on Nov 15, 2016 21:37:26 GMT -5
Was Kaminski the kicker in 67, too?
My first HC football game in Worcester, vs BC...HC lost 13-6 and missed a PAT and 2 chip shot field goals. Fitton was more impressive to a high school kid than the old Alumni Stadium...full or nearly full house.
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