|
Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Jul 12, 2022 19:41:22 GMT -5
^
Can you please go elsewhere.
|
|
|
Post by bfoley82 on Jul 12, 2022 20:18:46 GMT -5
^ Can you please go elsewhere. Because it isn't all sunshine and lollipops in the sports world? If the Red Sox aren't banging out Fenway, it is a concern of the WooSox that the interest is lower. Red Sox are averaging 32,234 in a 37,341 seat stadium which is 85.4 percent capacity. If any business had a 15 percent loss in revenue, you would want a major change in management.
|
|
|
Post by rf1 on Jul 12, 2022 21:21:10 GMT -5
This seems like a very simple exercise: how are the WooSox drawing compared to other minor league teams? Flash Foley’s customary moronic statement, chumming the water, is only a distraction. Looks like any objective observer would conclude that, at least at this point, the city has embraced the team
So the Woosox attendance should be judged relative to other minor league teams? Fine. A team once called the Pawtucket Red Sox drew an AVERAGE of 9,561 for a 2005 season total of 688,421 to a 60+ year old ball park. The Worcester Red Sox are drawing some 2,000 less per every game in the second season of a brand new $160M dollar stadium right smack in the downtown of the 2nd most populated city in New England.
By any reasonable measure, the WooSox numbers are rather disappointing compared to the past history of the franchise.
|
|
|
Post by longsuffering on Jul 12, 2022 21:23:32 GMT -5
Honestly...you would say a pound of gold was too heavy.
Boston Red Sox aren't selling out games in July either. Move them back to the Huntington Avenue Grounds!
It is a concern with the Boston Red Sox not selling out. This is a sign that interest in baseball in New England is waning. Worcester should never lead all of MILB in attendance as it is an hour from Boston, ocean beaches, etc. Rural areas without a major league city nearby should lead.
|
|
|
Post by rf1 on Jul 12, 2022 21:32:08 GMT -5
It is a concern with the Boston Red Sox not selling out. This is a sign that interest in baseball in New England is waning. Worcester should never lead all of MILB in attendance as it is an hour from Boston, ocean beaches, etc. Rural areas without a major league city nearby should lead.
Those excuses are a cop out. Pawtucket was less than an hour from Boston and even closer to ocean beaches and its team was once drawing an average of thousands more (than the present Woosox) in several seasons.
|
|
|
Post by longsuffering on Jul 12, 2022 21:37:28 GMT -5
Worcester should never lead all of MILB in attendance as it is an hour from Boston, ocean beaches, etc. Rural areas without a major league city nearby should lead.
Those excuses are a cop out. Pawtucket was less than an hour from Boston and even closer to ocean beaches and its team was once drawing an average of thousands more (than the present Woosox) in several seasons.
The Pawsox couldn't have always come close to selling out. I remember a marketing push for a few years when a ton of businesses were offering free or BOGO tickets. Probably around the 90's. Then it stopped.
|
|
|
Post by rf1 on Jul 12, 2022 22:05:10 GMT -5
Those excuses are a cop out. Pawtucket was less than an hour from Boston and even closer to ocean beaches and its team was once drawing an average of thousands more (than the present Woosox) in several seasons.
The Pawsox couldn't have always come close to selling out. I remember a marketing push for a few years when a ton of businesses were offering free or BOGO tickets. Probably around the 90's. Then it stopped.
I don't see where anyone is claiming the PawSox always sold out every game. They did however have extremely strong attendance for the full decade of 2000 to 2009 where they were near the top draw for all minor league teams. They averaged over 9,000 per game for this entire decade in a ballpark that was already then some 55-65 years old.
My contention is that the WooSox average attendance of the mid 7k range in the second year of a new ballpark is not particularly great. History shows that the first few years of a new stadium should see its best attendance numbers due to the novelty effect. Ticket sales typically wane a few years after a new ballpark has been open. What then does this portend for the future numbers at Polar Park?
Pawtucket Red Sox Attendance from 2000 to 2009 Year | # Of Openings | Attendance | Average Attendance | 2000 | 67 | 585,107 | 8,733 | 2001 | 70 | 647,928 | 9,256 | 2002 | 68 | 615,540 | 9,052 | 2003 | 67 | 550,157 | 8,211 | 2004 | 70 | 657,067 | 9,387 | 2005 | 72 | 688,421 | 9,561 | 2006 | 66 | 613,065 | 9,289 | 2007 | 69 | 611,379 | 8,861 | 2008 | 70 | 636,788 | 9,097 | 2009 | 70 | 625,561 | 8,937 | Decade Total | 689 | 6,231,013 | 9,044 |
|
|
|
Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Jul 12, 2022 22:36:26 GMT -5
In the 80’s you couldn’t get a Celtics ticket. In the 90’s you couldn’t give them away. Yeah, the Pawsox had a good run in Pawtucket at a time you couldn’t buy a ticket at Fenway. RF1 cherry-picks a period of time where the Pawsox had good attendance. Talking to some people involved with the team their expectation was an average attendance of 6,500 this year. They couldn’t be happier with the reception this year. Worcester is a great city with great sports fans. This is the first Boston affiliated franchise in Worcester. It will thrive. Time to end the debate. The Pawsox are gone forever. The team is in Worcester. There is development happening all around the ballpark and across Madison Street. So please RF1, it is over, give it a rest, please.
|
|
|
Post by rf1 on Jul 12, 2022 23:03:56 GMT -5
In the 80’s you couldn’t get a Celtics ticket. In the 90’s you couldn’t give them away. Yeah, the Pawsox had a good run in Pawtucket at a time you couldn’t buy a ticket at Fenway. RF1 cherry-picks a period of time where the Pawsox had good attendance. Talking to some people involved with the team their expectation was an average attendance of 6,500 this year. They couldn’t be happier with the reception this year. Worcester is a great city with great sports fans. This is the first Boston affiliated franchise in Worcester. It will thrive. Time to end the debate. The Pawsox are gone forever. The team is in Worcester. There is development happening all around the ballpark and across Madison Street. So please RF1, it is over, give it a rest, please.
The Woosox will NEVER achieve the numbers that they once averaged in Pawtucket. The area around the stadium will NEVER generate the tax revenues needed to completely pay off the bonds taken out to pay for the ballpark. These statements are not even worth debating since they are near certainties.
|
|
|
Post by bfoley82 on Jul 12, 2022 23:22:11 GMT -5
In the 80’s you couldn’t get a Celtics ticket. In the 90’s you couldn’t give them away. Yeah, the Pawsox had a good run in Pawtucket at a time you couldn’t buy a ticket at Fenway. RF1 cherry-picks a period of time where the Pawsox had good attendance. Talking to some people involved with the team their expectation was an average attendance of 6,500 this year. They couldn’t be happier with the reception this year. Worcester is a great city with great sports fans. This is the first Boston affiliated franchise in Worcester. It will thrive. Time to end the debate. The Pawsox are gone forever. The team is in Worcester. There is development happening all around the ballpark and across Madison Street. So please RF1, it is over, give it a rest, please. I have been against the city for this whole project throughout….6,500 expectation for a triple a team is cutting real close to breaking even. Just wait until Larry dies or sells the team.
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Jul 13, 2022 6:12:02 GMT -5
I’ll be greatly disappointed if this thread doesn’t eventually run to at least 10 pages.😉😂
I probably went to 5-6 PawSox games at McCoy. Never because I was a PawSox fan but rather because various groups, including the Holy Cross Club of RI and professional organizations and my company were having a group event there.
I won’t travel up 146 to watch the WooSox at Polar Park just to watch that team either. Not because I am your typical non-traveling Rhode Islander because I am not a Sox fan for either MLB or MiLB yet I have been there once to watch the Crusaders play the first Edward Bennett Williams football game and will be going again this coming season for the second EBW game.
Polar looks to be an outstanding minor league stadium. For football, not so much.
|
|
|
Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on Jul 13, 2022 7:11:18 GMT -5
Bottom line, the team was never staying in Pawtucket. The only chance for Rhode Island to keep the team was Providence. It was Larry Lucchino’s familiarity with Worcester through his Holy Cross connection with Edward Bennett that initially put the team in contention to move here. If you are an alum of Holy Cross you should feel tremendous pride in that. There are a lot of faux experts commenting here about break even points and development around the ballpark. You don’t know what you are talking about. The trend for these kind of ballparks are urban settings, not some ballpark with a parking lot in the front or located in some industrial park. In the end, Pawtucket is a dump. The team was never staying there.
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Jul 13, 2022 7:36:21 GMT -5
Please don't put me in the position of defending Pawtucket but making a generalization that Pawtucket "is a dump" is a bit unfair. Yes, there are spots there that are rundown and areas that aren't (I know of some who live there and in nice places). My late mother, born and raised in Worcester said she'd never "go back to that dump." Indeed, Worcester for many years had a reputation for being "a dump." But, it always, always, had nice sections and there seemed to be a revival decades ago when the Galleria opened up. Then it seemed to take another nose dive. It seems that Worcester is back in the ascendancy.
Worcester and Providence (and Pawtucket) all suffered after their industries went belly-up or moved elsewhere. Immigration seems to be what keeps these places growing, albeit slowly.
I think Polar Park is a good thing for Worcester and had the PawSox stayed in RI, would have been good for the Ocean State. The stadia mean more to a community than dollars and finances - it's civic pride and that's an intangible but real benefit.
|
|
|
Post by Tom on Jul 13, 2022 7:45:46 GMT -5
In the 80’s you couldn’t get a Celtics ticket. In the 90’s you couldn’t give them away. Yeah, the Pawsox had a good run in Pawtucket at a time you couldn’t buy a ticket at Fenway. RF1 cherry-picks a period of time where the Pawsox had good attendance. Talking to some people involved with the team their expectation was an average attendance of 6,500 this year. They couldn’t be happier with the reception this year. Worcester is a great city with great sports fans. This is the first Boston affiliated franchise in Worcester. It will thrive. Time to end the debate. The Pawsox are gone forever. The team is in Worcester. There is development happening all around the ballpark and across Madison Street. So please RF1, it is over, give it a rest, please.
The Woosox will NEVER achieve the numbers that they once averaged in Pawtucket.. The area around the stadium will NEVER generate the tax revenues needed to completely pay off the bonds taken out to pay for the ballpark. These statements are not even worth debating since they are near certainties. It depends on which numbers you're talking about. Polar is more expensive than McCoy. I don't have the actuals, but I would guess that the WooSox are generating more revenue than they once averaged in Pawtucket even if they are doing it with fewer people. Totally off topic. The AAA pitch clock is pretty cool and moves the game along. Raising a generation of pitchers who are used to it should make it easier to bring to the majors
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Jul 13, 2022 8:14:50 GMT -5
Thanks for the digression, Tom! It’ll help goose this thread to my 10 page goal!😂 I’m counting on rf1 for at least 5 pages.😉
|
|
|
Post by CHC8485 on Jul 13, 2022 11:22:01 GMT -5
Pawtucket Red Sox Attendance from 2000 to 2009 Year | # | Attendance| Average | 2000 | 67 | 585,107 | 8,733 | 2001 | 70 | 647,928 | 9,256 | 2002 | 68 | 615,540 | 9,052 | 2003 | 67 | 550,157 | 8,211 | 2004 | 70 | 657,067 | 9,387 | 2005 | 72 | 688,421 | 9,561 | 2006 | 66 | 613,065 | 9,289 | 2007 | 69 | 611,379 | 8,861 | 2008 | 70 | 636,788 | 9,097 | 2009 | 70 | 625,561 | 8,937 | Decade | 689 | 6,231,013 | 9,044 |
Nothing like presenting data that ends 5 seasons before the team was sold to make a point. Let's look at the last 10 years of the Mondor family ownership. Appears to me it was a decade of decline and could be showing more loyalty to Ben than to the PawSox themselves as the attendance droped but seemed to plateau from roughly 9000 a year, to a couple of years around 8,300 and then to around 7,500. For reference I just assumed 70 home dates for 2010 - 2014 as I did not want to take the time to find the actual number, so the average may be off slightly, but it supports the point. The PawSox attendance was waning even before Larry L showed up. And yes Larry L said almost immediately after buying them that the team would not be in Pawtucket long term no matter what, so I would admit that continued slide in attendance in 2015-2020 (especially the last couple of years) is skewed by that, so I did not include that in the argument. Year | Home Dates | Season Attenance | Average | 2005 | 72 | 688,421 | 9,561 | 2006 | 66 | 613,065 | 9,289 | 2007 | 69 | 611,379 | 8,861 | 2008 | 70 | 636,788
| 9,097 | 2009 | 70 | 625,561 | 8,937 | 2010 | 70 (approx) | 592,326 | 8,462 | 2011 | 70 " | 578,930 | 8,270 | 2012 | 70 " | 521,023 | 7,443 | 2013 | 70 " | 540,034 | 7,715 | 2014 | 70 " | 515,665 | 7,367 | Decade | 697 (approx) | 5,923,192 | 8,498 | 2010 - 2014 | 350 | 2,747,978 | 7,851 |
It's all in how you cut the data and the more recent data doesn't support your argument as it's fairly close to what the WooSox are doing.
|
|
|
Post by Tom on Jul 13, 2022 13:30:49 GMT -5
You almost make it sound like you can get data to say anything you want if you carefully craft your data sample
|
|
|
Post by rf1 on Jul 13, 2022 14:21:42 GMT -5
Pawtucket Red Sox Attendance from 2000 to 2009 Year | # | Attendance| Average | 2000 | 67 | 585,107 | 8,733 | 2001 | 70 | 647,928 | 9,256 | 2002 | 68 | 615,540 | 9,052 | 2003 | 67 | 550,157 | 8,211 | 2004 | 70 | 657,067 | 9,387 | 2005 | 72 | 688,421 | 9,561 | 2006 | 66 | 613,065 | 9,289 | 2007 | 69 | 611,379 | 8,861 | 2008 | 70 | 636,788 | 9,097 | 2009 | 70 | 625,561 | 8,937 | Decade | 689 | 6,231,013 | 9,044 |
Nothing like presenting data that ends 5 seasons before the team was sold to make a point. Let's look at the last 10 years of the Mondor family ownership. Appears to me it was a decade of decline and could be showing more loyalty to Ben than to the PawSox themselves as the attendance droped but seemed to plateau from roughly 9000 a year, to a couple of years around 8,300 and then to around 7,500. For reference I just assumed 70 home dates for 2010 - 2014 as I did not want to take the time to find the actual number, so the average may be off slightly, but it supports the point. The PawSox attendance was waning even before Larry L showed up. And yes Larry L said almost immediately after buying them that the team would not be in Pawtucket long term no matter what, so I would admit that continued slide in attendance in 2015-2020 (especially the last couple of years) is skewed by that, so I did not include that in the argument. Year | Home Dates | Season Attenance | Average | 2005 | 72 | 688,421 | 9,561 | 2006 | 66 | 613,065 | 9,289 | 2007 | 69 | 611,379 | 8,861 | 2008 | 70 | 636,788
| 9,097 | 2009 | 70 | 625,561 | 8,937 | 2010 | 70 (approx) | 592,326 | 8,462 | 2011 | 70 " | 578,930 | 8,270 | 2012 | 70 " | 521,023 | 7,443 | 2013 | 70 " | 540,034 | 7,715 | 2014 | 70 " | 515,665 | 7,367 | Decade | 697 (approx) | 5,923,192 | 8,498 | 2010 - 2014 | 350 | 2,747,978 | 7,851 |
It's all in how you cut the data and the more recent data doesn't support your argument as it's fairly close to what the WooSox are doing.
Here are the PawSox numbers by season going back to 2000 with ownership noted.
Year | # Of Openings | Attendance | Average Attendance | Home | Ownership |
2000 | 67 | 585,107 | 8,733 | Pawtucket | Ben Mondor | 2001 | 70 | 647,928 | 9,256 | Pawtucket | Ben Mondor | 2002 | 68 | 615,540 | 9,052 | Pawtucket | Ben Mondor | 2003 | 67 | 550,157 | 8,211 | Pawtucket | Ben Mondor | 2004 | 70 | 657,067 | 9,387 | Pawtucket | Ben Mondor | 2005 | 72 | 688,421 | 9,561 | Pawtucket | Ben Mondor | 2006 | 66 | 613,065 | 9,289 | Pawtucket | Ben Mondor | 2007 | 69 | 611,379 | 8,861 | Pawtucket | Ben Mondor | 2008 | 70 | 636,788 | 9,097 | Pawtucket | Ben Mondor | 2009 | 70 | 625,561 | 8,937 | Pawtucket | Ben Mondor | 2010 | 71 | 592,326 | 8,343 | Pawtucket | Ben Mondor | died 10/03/2010 2011 | 70 | 578,930 | 8,270 | Pawtucket | Madeleine Mondor | 2012 | 69 | 521,023 | 7,551 | Pawtucket | Madeleine Mondor | 2013 | 69 | 540,034 | 7,827 | Pawtucket | Madeleine Mondor | 2014 | 70 | 515,665 | 7,367 | Pawtucket | Madeleine Mondor | 2015 | 71 | 466,600 | 6,572 | Pawtucket | Larry Lucchino | 2016 | 67 | 407,097 | 6,076 | Pawtucket | Larry Lucchino | 2017 | 64 | 409,960 | 6,406 | Pawtucket | Larry Lucchino | 2018 | 66 | 394,811 | 5,982 | Pawtucket | Larry Lucchino | 2019 | 63 | 331,010 | 5,254 | Pawtucket | Larry Lucchino | 2020 | N/A Covid Cancelled Season | | | Pawtucket | Larry Lucchino |
The PawSox attendance numbers were in decline in their last years in their ballpark that first opened in 1942. The team had a noticeable drop after the death of Ben Mondor in 2010 and it really declined once Lucchino took over and pushed for a new stadium.
Had the PawSox stayed in RI and played in a brand new ballpark, the attendance numbers would likely have risen as that is the norm with nearly every new stadium.
|
|
|
Post by longsuffering on Jul 13, 2022 15:28:36 GMT -5
Do you think that if the Curt Schilling Fiasco hadn't happened a new stadium in RI would have been a no-brainer?
|
|
|
Post by timholycross on Jul 13, 2022 16:33:37 GMT -5
Probably. RI taxpayers have at least a 50/50 chance of having the last laugh on this deal.
|
|
|
Post by rf1 on Jul 13, 2022 16:44:27 GMT -5
Do you think that if the Curt Schilling Fiasco hadn't happened a new stadium in RI would have been a no-brainer?
Yes.
Most RI politicians were too afraid to fully embrace financing for a new stadium given the Schilling fiasco. The governor publicly backed it but lacked the courage to put her full weight and political muscle behind it. The RI Speaker (Mattiello who was dumped in the 2020 election) then doomed it by playing petty political power games. I personally think the PawSox would have stayed for far less public money (than what Worcester was willing to give) had a deal got done early on.
RI actually spent over $100M in public money to purchase and renovate the Dunkin Donuts Center back in 2005. The state then in 2010 made the ill fated decision to provide $75M in funding to 38 Studios. The company was in bankruptcy just two years later in 2012. The PawSox were sold by the Mondor family in 2015 and the new ownership immediately started pushing for a new ballpark. The pall of Schilling and 38 Studios was however still ripe in everyone's mind at this time. It very much impacted the PawSox situation.
|
|
|
Post by timholycross on Jul 13, 2022 16:53:20 GMT -5
Schilling's company had their headquarters in the Clock Tower in Maynard; is that set of buildings where ACTP gets his board name from? Or another Clock Tower?
|
|
|
Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Jul 13, 2022 18:45:40 GMT -5
is that set of buildings where ACTP gets his board name from? Or another Clock Tower? No. The HC clock tower.
|
|
|
Post by rgs318 on Jul 13, 2022 18:56:58 GMT -5
The one without a bell, right?
|
|
|
Post by gks on Jul 14, 2022 6:15:46 GMT -5
Probably. RI taxpayers have at least a 50/50 chance of having the last laugh on this deal. Laughing at what? Their taxes won't go down because of this. RI won't provide any addition services because of this. RI wanted the WooSox. They lost out. Plenty of MA people went to Pawtucket to support the PawSox. If RI folks want to pout and hold their breath and not go there's plenty of people within driving distance of Worcester to support the WooSox.
|
|