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Post by joe on Nov 20, 2016 8:02:36 GMT -5
Truly a parallel to the US election, where the best course of action is for all friends of HC football to come together behind this coach and this team. The challenge now is to continue to be supportive while remaining vigilant and vocal about the areas that are so obviously lacking. That being said I will remain critical and suggest none of us go back to Pollyannaville.
Please, in the off season. 1. Work your lineman such as to have a leaner body mass composition by the fall. Monitor diet, weekly caliper test. 2. Get us a fullback. Trust me. If not find me a nose guard with good paws and feet, even a TE who can run H-back a little. 3. Get us a tall DB or two, for the love of Christ almighty. 4. Get us a bigger ILB and move the current ones to OLB or SS. 5. Shift offensive focus in the Spring to developing a power running game. Try putting two back in the backfield and running some counter plays. We have PP so we don't need to focus on passing. Get the TEs involved. Make Winter training and Spring ball like boot camp again. Learn how to inflict pain and fear when you carry the ball. Watch video on Bragalone and copy. 6. Hire a sports psychiatrist for the the defensive so they understand their goal is to physically destroy the guy in front of them. No more 10 yard cushions. 7. Condition, condition, condition. If we're not going to win on talent, win on physicality. 8. Practice 500,000 field goals from 40 yards and in. 9. Keep doing what your doing with the receivers, no problem there. Develop the tall ones.
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 20, 2016 9:52:24 GMT -5
Unless you understand, better than the outside world, possible inherent organizational disadvantages for which you, as AD, have responsibility to try to overcome and could have done better.
And while it may be a case of simply trying to have TG's back, in a world where so many don't seem to be responsible for anything they do, I found it refreshing.
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Post by HC92 on Nov 20, 2016 10:02:51 GMT -5
10. Make it somebody's job to manage the clock at the end of the half and the end of the game and make that person watch as many late-half/late-game situations as possible to develop clear plans for any situation that may arise re: how to manage the clock in terms of play calling, pace of play and timeouts.
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Post by rgs318 on Nov 20, 2016 10:28:38 GMT -5
The last few posts set a nice tone as we look ahead to next season. Improvements are needed, but these address that in a positive way. Nice work, HC92, Joe and sader1970!
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Post by timholycross on Nov 20, 2016 10:49:48 GMT -5
Re #2,3,4. Whatever your strategy, start using the athletes you have*, don't let them rot on the bench if someone is better than them at their position. Move people from offense to defense if you have to. You only have 60 scholarship equivalencies or something close to that. Just a gut feeling that's not being done, not blowing any disgruntled player's horn.
*for those who remember Ed Doherty, that's what he did and it worked for a couple years. For example, Doherty had the 2 starting quarterbacks from Whitton's 0-10 year playing defense the next two seasons. Not saying he was the greatest coach overall but desperate times warranted desparate measures, and that's where we are again.
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Post by HC1843 on Nov 20, 2016 16:31:12 GMT -5
Unless you understand, better than the outside world, possible inherent organizational disadvantages for which you, as AD, have responsibility to try to overcome and could have done better. And while it may be a case of simply trying to have TG's back, in a world where so many don't seem to be responsible for anything they do, I found it refreshing. No, not this long back into scholarships and given that we finally got rid of Milan given poor performance. I am not sure what Nate did wrong this season. Was he calling plays? What could he have done better, gotten Anne to retire? Cheers.
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Post by ncaam on Nov 20, 2016 16:46:26 GMT -5
Nate's mistake was in giving Gilmore an extension. Gilmore is no longer Regan's guy; he's Nate's guy. As AD you are responsible for ALL the teams.
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Post by deep Purple on Nov 20, 2016 18:14:31 GMT -5
I think the best time to dismiss him would have been after the Lehigh loss. That's the loss that ended the season. They could have conducted a search and the new head coach and primary staff most likely would have been in place by now and recruiting wouldn't have suffered as much.
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 20, 2016 18:20:47 GMT -5
But he was not dismissed after the Lehigh loss or at the end of the season and is obviously staying. Everyone will have an opportunity to say "I told you so" after next season.
This is like a soap opera, time passes but the story stays the same.
Does anyone think that continuing to second guess NP for the next 6-10 months is going to change his mind and say: "You know, I decided to stick with TG but now after reading all those things on Crossports I realize they were right and I'm going to fire Tom now."
But I'll make it simple, I just won't read this thread anymore. Please, just all promise not to create yet another thread to re-hash it all again.
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Post by jflare on Nov 20, 2016 20:02:56 GMT -5
Compete for a Patriot league title. Who are they kidding other than themselves. Fordham, Lehigh, and Colgate are far better than us even with PP and GG. Bucknell is better as well although by not nearing as much as the top three. Georgetown and Lafayette are close. UConn, Harvard, Yale, New Hampshire and Dartmouth will all be most challenging. We could very easily win 3 - 4 games again and not be close to contending for PL title. Hope not, but that's what it looks like for now. Does anyone see it differently?
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Post by dharry13 on Nov 21, 2016 10:35:08 GMT -5
The thing is Bringbackcaro - you're basing your decision on what fact? A gut feeling that it will get better? What are you basing your decision on to keep him? His ability to make halftime adjustments - nope, that can't be it. His ability to recruit enough Defensive players to get a stop when they need it - nope, that can't be it. Beating the Ivies consistently when you have full scholarships here - nope that can't be it.
Pine has scheduled 6 D1 schools in the next 5 years - and good for him because it will help the overall program because of the gate they will receive and the publicity they receive.
There isn't a backup plan for pretty much every program across the country when they make a move on a coach. They have a short list prior to even making that decision, so no backup plan - I'm not sure what that even means.
We've had 5 bad seasons in a row - you said it yourself - how is that grounds to not make a move? It's stupid to suggest otherwise. I don't like seeing people lose their jobs - it sucks because he has a family.
But in the business of D1 or even D1AA football, that's part of the job. There is risk to it and the results are on the field. Time for a new voice.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Nov 21, 2016 11:01:48 GMT -5
The thing is Bringbackcaro - you're basing your decision on what fact? A gut feeling that it will get better? What are you basing your decision on to keep him? His ability to make halftime adjustments - nope, that can't be it. His ability to recruit enough Defensive players to get a stop when they need it - nope, that can't be it. Beating the Ivies consistently when you have full scholarships here - nope that can't be it. Pine has scheduled 6 D1 schools in the next 5 years - and good for him because it will help the overall program because of the gate they will receive and the publicity they receive. There isn't a backup plan for pretty much every program across the country when they make a move on a coach. They have a short list prior to even making that decision, so no backup plan - I'm not sure what that even means. We've had 5 bad seasons in a row - you said it yourself - how is that grounds to not make a move? It's stupid to suggest otherwise. I don't like seeing people lose their jobs - it sucks because he has a family. But in the business of D1 or even D1AA football, that's part of the job. There is risk to it and the results are on the field. Time for a new voice. I'm basing my logic on reality. The reality of Patriot League football at the 1-AA level. The reality that we are still transitioning to fully adopting scholarships and building scholarship depth across the 2-deep, just a few short years after being one of the most poorly supported programs in 1-AA (no schollies, no admissions support, bottom tier of PL in $ invested). You say that every program in the country has a "backup plan" when they make a move on the coach, but how about we take a look at Texas. Few, if any, have more resources at their disposal than Texas, and Mack Brown was the coach there for a long time, thus giving their administration plenty of time for a "backup plan." Things didn't go the way they expected in the search, and they ended up with Charlie Strong, who was not a good fit and will now be fired after three poor seasons and a lot of $$$ wasted. That can happen at Texas, as it can happen at any school in the country.However, the probability of it happening at our level is significantly higher. Here's a question: how many coordinators in the PL and Ivy are capable of leading a program on their own? Without fully studying the list of these individuals over the years, I would make an assumption that the answer would be not many. Young up and coming coaches do not stick around the PL and Ivy for too long, and typically move on as quickly as they can to get up to the 1-A level. Once a coach is advancing through the ranks at the 1-A level, it is going to be very difficult to get him back to the PL. I have previously used Fordham as an example -- their head coach left last year for a coordinator job in 1-A, and despite all of their success the last few years and a loaded roster, they settled om hiring a kid in his very early 30's from their own staff. He may turn out to be a star in the profession, but you are taking a risk making that move, and that risk is only intensified with a program where we are right now compared to where Fordham was last offseason. Also, if we had someone on our staff who was ready and capable of taking the program over right now, you would hope that Nate Pine was able to make that evaluation over the past few years.
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Post by ncaam on Nov 21, 2016 13:11:15 GMT -5
If we go 3-8, 4-7 the next two years...do you want Gilmore back for an encore extension?
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Post by purplepassion80 on Nov 22, 2016 1:13:55 GMT -5
CTG record pre scholarships 51-38 (57%) and 30-18 (62%) in PL from 2004-2011. With scholarships from 2012-2016 19-39 (33%) and PL 10-20 (33%). Against Fordham, Lehigh and Colgate CTG is 1-15 since scholarships have been awarded. He has been 0-3 against these teams 4 of 5 years. He has won one PL Championship while Lehigh has won or shared 5 titles, Lafayette 4, Colgate 3 and Fordham 2 during his tenure. Other PL, Ivy, and CAA coaches tell this to recruits and who could blame them. I know two kids personally playing at other PL schools recruited by HC chose not to come because it is "not good in football" and the numbers prove this so. Solution? Hire OC Brian Rock interim HC. PP has his OC back and will put up big numbers, good for future recruiting. This tells present recruits HC will not accept losing football. DC Kash gets to coach as CTG always had defense. Pay CTC rest of contract to stay home. If BR does well reward with new contract at end of year, bump salary a bit this year, shouldn't be expensive. Thoughts?
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Post by timholycross on Nov 22, 2016 9:21:50 GMT -5
If the attitude around the program (school, players, athletic administration, excluding Pine) is anywhere close to what's being said on this board, Gilmore turning things around is nigh impossible. Actually think he's in a worse situation career-wise than if he had moved on. Those are my thoughts.
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Post by worcester on Nov 22, 2016 9:25:53 GMT -5
CTG record pre scholarships 51-38 (57%) and 30-18 (62%) in PL from 2004-2011. With scholarships from 2012-2016 19-39 (33%) and PL 10-20 (33%). Against Fordham, Lehigh and Colgate CTG is 1-15 since scholarships have been awarded. He has been 0-3 against these teams 4 of 5 years. He has won one PL Championship while Lehigh has won or shared 5 titles, Lafayette 4, Colgate 3 and Fordham 2 during his tenure. Other PL, Ivy, and CAA coaches tell this to recruits and who could blame them. I know two kids personally playing at other PL schools recruited by HC chose not to come because it is "not good in football" and the numbers prove this so. Solution? Hire OC Brian Rock interim HC. PP has his OC back and will put up big numbers, good for future recruiting. This tells present recruits HC will not accept losing football. DC Kash gets to coach as CTG always had defense. Pay CTC rest of contract to stay home. If BR does well reward with new contract at end of year, bump salary a bit this year, shouldn't be expensive. Thoughts? History shows that when a program is failing, as HC is, promoting from within is not the solution. If CTG is not retained an outsider should be brought in and allowed to decide who he wants to keep.
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Post by lou on Nov 22, 2016 9:38:18 GMT -5
CTG record pre scholarships 51-38 (57%) and 30-18 (62%) in PL from 2004-2011. With scholarships from 2012-2016 19-39 (33%) and PL 10-20 (33%). Against Fordham, Lehigh and Colgate CTG is 1-15 since scholarships have been awarded. He has been 0-3 against these teams 4 of 5 years. He has won one PL Championship while Lehigh has won or shared 5 titles, Lafayette 4, Colgate 3 and Fordham 2 during his tenure. Other PL, Ivy, and CAA coaches tell this to recruits and who could blame them. I know two kids personally playing at other PL schools recruited by HC chose not to come because it is "not good in football" and the numbers prove this so. Solution? Hire OC Brian Rock interim HC. PP has his OC back and will put up big numbers, good for future recruiting. This tells present recruits HC will not accept losing football. DC Kash gets to coach as CTG always had defense. Pay CTC rest of contract to stay home. If BR does well reward with new contract at end of year, bump salary a bit this year, shouldn't be expensive. Thoughts? I don't know how good any of these coaches are, but I would expect to promote from within when a good coach leaves a good team, kind of like Fordham did. Why would we promote coaches who are losing on a regular basis?
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Post by sarasota on Nov 22, 2016 21:43:01 GMT -5
I feel sorry for college asst coaches. They may have little responsibility for a losing team yet when the head coach moves on the assistants have to usually uproot their families. Pretty brutal.
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Post by wooman on Nov 23, 2016 0:43:43 GMT -5
Wait, what? Pine is looking to leave HC? Presumably, if that's true he'd be looking for an AD post at a school competing at higher level than the PL. What possible narrative could be made to support the idea that he's earned such an opportunity? I'm quite surprised that Gilmore is staying on. Even his most ardent supporters would have to understand the sound rationale for his dismissal now, if that were to happen. It seems to me that there was an opportunity for NP to exert swift and decisive leadership on this issue by parting ways with TG and getting his own guy in there. That didn't happen.
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Post by purplepassion80 on Nov 23, 2016 1:40:45 GMT -5
worcester: You made a good point, and in general I agree. However with a potential 2nd Team All American coming back for a fifth year, and porous PL defenses, this could be a recording breaking offensive year for HC Offense. However CTG has been a proven failure since scholarships have been awarded in 2012 (see previous post for records). Also, he controls the defense which has been inept for years. So keep as much as offense intact as possible including the OC (Coach Rock) while promoting him as head coach (no one needs to know it is one year or performance based contract), pay CTG to stay home and let Coach Kash (DC) show what he can do without CTG. It will be an entertaining year for the boys (they love Coach Rock), show our present recruits we do not accept losing football at HC. We all know the definition of "crazy" doing the same thing over and over and expecting something different. This is what ADNP is doing and as alum, we shouldn't accept it. We should ask the same effort from him that he asks from us. to do our best. He needs to be more courages, do better and make a move. Placing Coach Rock as head coach is doing something, while being minimally disruptive. Doing nothing implies accepting such failure and incompetence.The players and alum who sacrifice so much for the success of this program deserve it. We would never accept such a poor performance (33% winning percentage since 2012, beating only one team with a winning the record the past two years, 1-15 against Fordham, Colgate and Lehigh since 2012) from our professors, why should we expect less from our coaches or our athletic director. The more I think about this, the more disappointed and angrier I get. None of us would have our jobs if we performed this badly. How can ADNP expect us to support him or this program when he continues to employ someone who has proven to be so ineffective since scholarships have awarded for the past 5 years.
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Post by worcester on Nov 25, 2016 16:51:27 GMT -5
Not being an alum, only a fan of HC for many, many years, I ask the alums why? Why does HC accept mediocracy, not only in football but every sport? Please inform. Thanks
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Post by Xmassader on Nov 25, 2016 20:41:19 GMT -5
Worcester. Quite simply because TPTB (Trustees and Administration) either have limited knowledge about and/or interest in athletics or, in the case of some of the Trustees who have had a background in athletics, because they have been selected based on their willingness to toe the PL/25+ varsity sports line without great concern about pushing for consistent winners in the major sports. Arguably, HC is D-1 in football, men's and women's basketball, baseball and men's hockey and effectively D-3 in everything else (see the overall PL Presidents' Cup standings for the last 10-15 years that Sarasota posted on another thread). While the focus of Fr. Boroughs and ADNP on athletic excellence is certainly greater than their respective predecessors, I do not see the true energy/will/financial commitment at TPTB level needed to make HC's motto-"A Commitment to Excellence" - applicable to HC athletics.
If I'm not mistaken, the Chicago Cubs (either shortly before or after Theo Epstein became involved)lost 103 games. 4+ years later they ended a 108 yr. World Series drought. What changed? IMO, a desire to compete and win championships, the establishment of a plan or path to get there and the hiring/selection of personnel at all levels (front office, scouting, manager and coaches and players) with the passion and talent to get it done.
Is Holy Cross committed to a Cubs-like approach? Some would say yes and point to the Luth Athletic Complex as an example. Others would say no and point, as an example, to the football team's record in the recent PL scholarship era. My reading of previous posts on this message board is that a majority of the alum posters don't see this level of commitment from TPTB. If they are correct, then HC's rise to athletic excellence may be a long time in coming.
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 25, 2016 21:02:34 GMT -5
While I don't see the Luth Athletic Center as a panacea, my NonAlumSon (Fairfield grad) joined me at the basketball game this afternoon and was very impressed with the size and scope of the Luth. And this from a man who is just not easily impressed. He also liked the changes to the Hart Center. Will that make us better in the Olympic sports? Maybe marginally.
My impression, and that's all it is, is that the new regime at Holy Cross is looking for significant improvement in the more visible sports like football, basketball and, yes, hockey. Even now, I don't think that there is a major focus on vying for the PL President's Cup every year but, then again, that may be just me projecting my own feelings onto them.
I'll trot out one of my management 101 sayings: "If everything is a priority, nothing is a priority." While the administration is not wishing to lose in anything, I believe they realize that they will get more Holy Cross branding visibility bang for the buck in the "major" sports and are probably content to tread water in the others. That's why you see the Yankee Stadium football event, the BC and PC hockey games in the DCU, the delayed decision to fully fund the allowable football scholarships to compete for the PL championship and to play the UConns, BCs, Syracuses and Navys, the decision to hire a Bill Carmody and an assistant coach who was a former head basketball coach. There is a new found seriousness about athletics but it seems to be narrow and deep, not spread over all 27 sports teams.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Nov 25, 2016 22:01:56 GMT -5
Nice analysis
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Post by Xmassader on Nov 25, 2016 22:32:46 GMT -5
sader1970. I agree that the major sports should be the "priority". We are in complete agreement there. I just don't think the "pace" of administrative focus/attention in those sports reflects a commitment to excellence by TPTB but rather a commitment to be better than we have been recently. Certainly an improvement over the Fr. McF/ADDR era but, IMO, not fast enough or decisive enough.
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