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Post by rgs318 on Oct 7, 2022 9:23:05 GMT -5
A local story makes me appreciate how lucky HC is to have as much academic freedom as we do. In Woodcliff Lake, NJ a middle school teacher is suing for reinstatement from suspension. What got him suspended was to teach a lesson about propaganda in WWII. He was very careful to avoid possible trigger activities when he asked students to pick one a country holding one of these positions - Allied, Neutral or Axis - and to design a poster or a political cartoon that would illustrate the perspective they chose. He said no student would have to ever draw a swastika since that is a "hate symbol" nor should they ever draw such a symbol outside of this assignment. He was charged with HiB behavior (short for harassment, intimidation or bullying) because anonymous sources said some of the students felt "uncomfortable" with the lesson. He was not allowed to know what his accusers claimed and he could not question anyone who made a statement at a board meeting that discussed the issue. From what I have learned, this teacher is effective, and gets a lot from his students. This is really scary..."uncomfortable?" What if a poor grade makes a student feel "uncomfortable?" Can that teacher also be suspended? This is a very slippery slope. I hope the teacher, Robert Welsh, is quickly reinstated. (PS: After being informed by the superintendent of the claims of HiB, he issued a statement to all parents explaining the lesson and offering an apology to any who felt upset by the lesson. He was then suspended after that. I am glad that I retired from teaching history some years back. IMHO, it has become a hazardous profession.  |
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Post by newfieguy74 on Oct 7, 2022 9:32:48 GMT -5
And it's not just History. I have a close friend who teaches English at one of the Seven Sisters. The stories he tells me are horrifying. Students refusing to come to class during discussions of Shakespeare plays that trigger them, students demanding that certain books be removed from the syllabus, etc. It's insane, but no one stands up to these students. Instead, their sense of entitlement is coddled and faculty members live in dread of the slightest misstep.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Oct 7, 2022 9:44:19 GMT -5
+500 odds from me that the offended was not an actual student, but a soft-ass parent looking to signal on behalf of the oppressed.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 7, 2022 10:00:54 GMT -5
And it's not just History. I have a close friend who teaches English at one of the Seven Sisters. The stories he tells me are horrifying. Students refusing to come to class during discussions of Shakespeare plays that trigger them, students demanding that certain books be removed from the syllabus, etc. It's insane, but no one stands up to these students. Instead, their sense of entitlement is coddled and faculty members live in dread of the slightest misstep. Your friend should deduct points from the whining students who skip class--that would get their attention==maybe a nice D or F on the transcript would be a motivator to smarten up |
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Post by mm67 on Oct 7, 2022 14:57:27 GMT -5
Re: Woodcliff Lake, NJ. We are in the silly season. Everyone is an expert.
The classroom activity seemed terrific. It got students to participate more fully by sparking their imagination thus encouraging a better understanding in a meaningful way of the beliefs of various participants in WWII.The teacher should be commended for his creativity.
This comment comes from the perspective of a 30+ yr NYC public hs teacher who was regularly commended as a "Master Teacher" by various school leaders. ( There was no official "Master Teacher" designation.) I refused entreaties to move into administration and also there were feelers for a position at Columbia Teachers College.The classroom was my love.
Most teachers know controversial topics provide fertile ground for teaching and learning. There is always the potential for tension between classroom teaching/learning, the teacher & parents who may not understand the dynamics of classroom instruction & learning or who may be motivated by political views. No parent tried to interfere in our classroom. Glad I taught in a NYC public hs. Indeed, it was bliss.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Oct 7, 2022 15:06:09 GMT -5
And it's not just History. I have a close friend who teaches English at one of the Seven Sisters. The stories he tells me are horrifying. Students refusing to come to class during discussions of Shakespeare plays that trigger them, students demanding that certain books be removed from the syllabus, etc. It's insane, but no one stands up to these students. Instead, their sense of entitlement is coddled and faculty members live in dread of the slightest misstep. Your friend should deduct points from the whining students who skip class--that would get their attention==maybe a nice D or F on the transcript would be a motivator to smarten up Believe it or not, if he did this I think he would get severely disciplined, maybe even fired (even though he is tenured). No one at this elite school would consider criticizing, let alone penalizing, a student for blowing off class because they get triggered by something. My question to my friend always is: how will these entitled coddled students ever function in the workplace/world? It's truly insane. |
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Post by alum on Oct 7, 2022 15:40:09 GMT -5
Here is a new story with some more detail Here is a news story on the case. www.nj.com/education/2022/09/nj-teacher-suspended-for-lessons-on-hitler-swastikas-sues-school-district.htmlI know a guy who lost his job teaching high school English when he read an Alan Ginsberg poem with his senior AP English class. Some parents complained. As far as I know, he declined to fight it. Was there more to the story? I don't know. Was there more to this guy in NJ's story? Had he been told not to do this and ignored the principal? That might matter. I generally believe that more speech is better than less and that teachers ought to have a lot of discretion and I certainly don't think that this i ncident, by itself, is bad enough behavior to fire someone. If we take him at his word, he told the kids it was a symbol of hate that ought not be used outside an academic inquiry. Now, to throw a monkey wrench into the debate, what if he was teaching Reconstruction and the rise of the Klan? Would it be OK to ask the kids to create political cartoons? Could he tell them they could use the "n word" in the assignment as long as he warned them they couldn't use it elsewhere? Is that different? Ok, have a nice weekend everyone. |
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 7, 2022 15:56:34 GMT -5
Here is a new story with some more detail Here is a news story on the case. www.nj.com/education/2022/09/nj-teacher-suspended-for-lessons-on-hitler-swastikas-sues-school-district.htmlI know a guy who lost his job teaching high school English when he read an Alan Ginsberg poem with his senior AP English class. Some parents complained. As far as I know, he declined to fight it. Was there more to the story? I don't know. Was there more to this guy in NJ's story? Had he been told not to do this and ignored the principal? That might matter. I generally believe that more speech is better than less and that teachers ought to have a lot of discretion and I certainly don't think that this i ncident, by itself, is bad enough behavior to fire someone. If we take him at his word, he told the kids it was a symbol of hate that ought not be used outside an academic inquiry. Now, to throw a monkey wrench into the debate, what if he was teaching Reconstruction and the rise of the Klan? Would it be OK to ask the kids to create political cartoons? Could he tell them they could use the "n word" in the assignment as long as he warned them they couldn't use it elsewhere? Is that different? Ok, have a nice weekend everyone. This teacher's lesson was in agreement with the material permitted (or required) by school and state curricula. He was never told in advance not to do this and a similar lesson (without all the caveats he used) is included in the state's curriculum on the Holocaust. That could make a difference. There is more to the story. The initial complaints came from one or more officials at a local synagogue, not from the teacher's students. School administrators met with synagogue leaders in a private meeting that the teacher and union representatives were prohibited from attending. One other point. He told the students if they preferred to use modern Germany and its flag or symbols (rather than Nazi Germany) that would be allowed. As to your monkey wrench, what if the class were connected to Huckleberry Finn (with its frequent use of the "n" word)? One would need to know the details to form a meaningful opinion. After all, I have long believed that no decision can be better than the information on which it is based. There is a long-standing belief in the U.S. that the accused has a right to confront his accusers. Apparently that does not happen in some towns in NJ. That is teaching students lesson as well. |
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Post by longsuffering on Oct 7, 2022 19:03:13 GMT -5
Re: Woodcliff Lake, NJ. We are in the silly season. Everyone is an expert. The classroom activity seemed terrific. It got students to participate more fully by sparking their imagination thus encouraging a better understanding in a meaningful way of the beliefs of various participants in WWII.The teacher should be commended for his creativity. This comment comes from the perspective of a 30+ yr NYC public hs teacher who was regularly commended as a "Master Teacher" by various school leaders. ( There was no official "Master Teacher" designation.) I refused entreaties to move into administration and also there were feelers for a position at Columbia Teachers College.The classroom was my love. Most teachers know controversial topics provide fertile ground for teaching and learning. There is always the potential for tension between classroom teaching/learning, the teacher & parents who may not understand the dynamics of classroom instruction & learning or who may be motivated by political views. No parent tried to interfere in our classroom. Glad I taught in a NYC public hs. Indeed, it was bliss. How close was this to your teaching experience? |
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 8, 2022 7:11:50 GMT -5
Well. everyone in my school watched the show every week - even setting up a tv at our gym during a basketball game for fans to see ot. Was it close tp ,y experience...at times, but for t most part about a thousand miles away.  Interesting to see Gabe Kaplan listed as Gabriel Kaplan in the credits. |
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Post by mm67 on Oct 8, 2022 7:39:11 GMT -5
Woodcliff Lake, NJ. The plot thickens. Clearly there were earlier disagreements between the teacher and the board. School leaders felt the teacher in the past had been inappropriately trying to foster his private personal beliefs - Christianity, LGBT+-in the school. The administrators might have believed the classroom lesson was merely another attempt to promote his personal convictions. Although from the description of the lesson it does not seem so. It would be interesting to hear from the eyewitness testimony of the students as to what actually occurred in the classroom. Student testimony could be determinative.
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Post by alum on Oct 8, 2022 7:48:40 GMT -5
The Huck Finn problem is a slightly different issue. The assignment in this NJ case involved the kids creating offensive material ( although they were not required to do so.) Teaching Huck Finn with the slurs is evaluating someone else’s use of the word. This is controversial, too.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 8, 2022 8:20:12 GMT -5
Woodcliff Lake, NJ. The plot thickens. Clearly there were earlier disagreements between the teacher and the board. School leaders felt the teacher in the past had been inappropriately trying to foster his private personal beliefs - Christianity, LGBT+-in the school. The administrators might have believed the classroom lesson was merely another attempt to promote his personal convictions. Although from the description of the lesson it does not seem so. It would be interesting to hear from the eyewitness testimony of the students as to what actually occurred in the classroom. Student testimony could be determinative. Since they won't let even the teacher hear from those students, it is not going to happen. As to his personal beliefs, do you have any knowledge of how he tried in class to let his Christian beliefs influence his students? The board did try to have an after-school, student-run Christian club stopped at the school. Also, his lesson on propaganda was observed by his supervisor and he got a positive evaluation on it. The criticism about his Christianity came out only after the complaint about the lesson. |
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Post by mm67 on Oct 8, 2022 8:55:11 GMT -5
Woodcliff Lake, NJ. The plot thickens. Clearly there were earlier disagreements between the teacher and the board. School leaders felt the teacher in the past had been inappropriately trying to foster his private personal beliefs - Christianity, LGBT+-in the school. The administrators might have believed the classroom lesson was merely another attempt to promote his personal convictions. Although from the description of the lesson it does not seem so. It would be interesting to hear from the eyewitness testimony of the students as to what actually occurred in the classroom. Student testimony could be determinative. Since they won't let even the teacher hear tfrom hose students, it is not going to happen. As to his personal beliefs, do you have any knowledge of how he tried in class to let his Christian beliefs influence his students? The board did try to have an after-school, student-run Christian club stopped at the school. Obviously my, comments were not based on any personal knowledge nor were they stated as such. I never categorically stated nor implied I had any direct knowledge of his classroom instruction. If you read my comment you would see I was merely trying to read the tea leaves as to what had transpired between the administration & the teacher. As I stated there were past disagreements. Apparently, there was bad blood between the teacher and the administration. As I wrote the description of the lesson did not indicate any attempt on his part to impose his personal religious beliefs ("...it did not seem so."). As I wrote the classroom activity seemed to terrific and in all likelihood would have led to a fulsome class discussion. Obviously it was precisely because we do not know what occurred in class, that I posited "student testimony could be determinative." There was no criticism of the teacher. As to a Christian Club in school? I have no position. The establishment of such would be governed by district regulations pursuant to state education law. Was the administration following said district policy? I have no idea. Academic freedom in the classroom was the central issue on this page not the appropriateness of a particular after school activity.Peace. Beat Bucknell. PS In all likelihood there will be an out of court settlement. |
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 8, 2022 9:26:26 GMT -5
Your friend should deduct points from the whining students who skip class--that would get their attention==maybe a nice D or F on the transcript would be a motivator to smarten up Believe it or not, if he did this I think he would get severely disciplined, maybe even fired (even though he is tenured). No one at this elite school would consider criticizing, let alone penalizing, a student for blowing off class because they get triggered by something. My question to my friend always is: how will these entitled coddled students ever function in the workplace/world? It's truly insane.In many workplaces they will encounter the same "woke" culture that warped them in college |
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 8, 2022 11:10:34 GMT -5
Based on comments from our daughter-in-law who worked in HR in NYC, they are not served well by "woke" responses or attitudes when seeking employment.
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Post by nhteamer on Oct 10, 2022 9:04:44 GMT -5
"A local story makes me appreciate how lucky HC is to have as much academic freedom as we do."
How would that work if a HC professor said that there are only two sexes, male and female.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 10, 2022 9:22:18 GMT -5
I suspect he would quit and run for public office.
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Post by mm67 on Oct 10, 2022 13:23:12 GMT -5
50 years ago there was a new teacher who was assigned a 6th grade Sex Ed Health class. He was fresh out of Grad School.
First Day he said something like this: Boys & girls there are different kinds of sex. There is the sex between a man & a man; Sex between a woman & a woman; And, sex between a man & a woman. In this class we are going to learn about sex between a man & a woman. Of course little Janie or little Johnnie goes home. Mother asks: And what did we learn in school today, dear? The rest is history.
Next day the principal's office was barraged by a stream of phone calls from angry parents. They were furious! He was fired immediately.
He was untenured. He was gone that day. Heard the story directly from him with others in attendance at a table over too many libations in a Manhattan Club. Dumb. Dumb teacher.
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Post by Tom on Oct 10, 2022 15:16:52 GMT -5
"A local story makes me appreciate how lucky HC is to have as much academic freedom as we do." How would that work if a HC professor said that there are only two sexes, male and female. I imagine many HC prof's have said that. Especially ones in the Biology department. |
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Post by nhteamer on Oct 20, 2022 8:04:23 GMT -5
wanna bet?
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Post by Tom on Oct 20, 2022 10:17:30 GMT -5
While I wouldn't put money on the sociology, psychology, or philosophy departments, I would put money on a biology lecture on X and Y chromosomes covering something along those lines if not those exact words. (disclaimer - for purposes of this discussion I am focusing on homo sapiens and ignoring that there are some species, particularly in the reptile class, that don't have the same gender distinctions that people do)
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 20, 2022 10:57:47 GMT -5
Are we ignoring Hermaphrodites?
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Post by newfieguy74 on Oct 20, 2022 12:23:42 GMT -5
Are we ignoring Hermaphrodites? I concede this is a confusing topic, but my understanding is that there are the following distinctions: 1. The sex that one is assigned at birth (male/female), based mostly (I believe) on the genitals one is born with. There are nuances (hermaphrodite) and these are biological also. 2. Gender--more a function of societal norms and expectations for how each sex acts/dresses, etc. 3. Gender identification--how each person identifies themselves; this is where all the many different categories come in to play. |
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 20, 2022 12:29:14 GMT -5
Traditionally, doctors when having a child/patient with both sex organs, used to make a decision themselves, and they used to assign gender and remove the "extra" genitalia. I can't imagine the difficulties faced by some who underwent this surgery and spent most of their lives feeling they were the "other" gender (often without knowing about their original state). Any MDs out there have more information on this? Please know that this is about biology and not a political of social judgement.
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