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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 14, 2022 20:04:42 GMT -5
A century plus of exciting football with another century to come
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Post by jkh67 on Dec 14, 2022 20:46:31 GMT -5
I was fortunate--blessed actually-- to have taken Father's Christology seminar my senior year. His wisdom, not just on Theology, was profound. I knew Fr. Brooks' as a shrinking, somewhat frail 80 year old. Obviously I knew he was our former, poweful, President, but I couldn't imagine his physical stature as he was such an older gentleman. He was kind man but spoke with a kind of quiet yet commanding voice. Everyone listened when he spoke, but more often he would nod as we students debated and quizzed each other. One thing is for sure, I had a hard time believing that this is the man who KO-ed our chances at playing in the Big East. After some study and reading (starting with Fr. K's book), I find it very disappointing (especially since Frs. Swords and Brooks realized the team was bringing in $200,000+ in the early 70s and they couldn't drop football) that the decisions were made about athletics. But...it is 2022 and new opportunities abound in the future. I had Brooks for Theology in 1965-66. Heils Geschichte, baby! Many years later, he sat with the HC crew on the visitors side of Fisher Field at Lafayette in a driving rainstorm. The game was Lafy's 1,000 and was supposed to be at Fitton, but we agreed to transfer such a signal game to their field. He told me that Lafayette's president had invited him to sit in his box, but Brooksie said he wanted to sit with the brethren. Which he did. It's always amazed me that such a stalwart supporter of all things HC, including (emphatically) athletics, would have passed up that purported Big East invitation. If we were in fact invited, passing it up has always been a big mistake in my estimation. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. But I agree that that's long away and far away and there's no point continuing to gnaw on the bone.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 14, 2022 21:07:59 GMT -5
Let me tell you my version and others may share your perspective
Late Saturday evening George, Ronnie and Dave had the new league in place.
On Sunday morning they notified Brooks of the announcement on Monday regarding the newly created Big East
While he was fully informed of the ongoing conversations, he reacted as if his approval was taken for granted so he balked and refused publicly to joining a league where we had so little if anything in common academically with our other members.
A few years later enter EBW as Chairman of the BOT and a couple of other alums who were ready to post the initiation fee as well as other commitments. Brooks for some reason wanted to have a bigger role in the announcement and when that didn't happen we backed away once more, much to the embarrassment of Ronnie, George, EBW and a couple of others.
That ended the close relationship EBW had with Brooks, although EBW and his wife treated Holy Cross well through their Estate, although rumors are the $$$ might not have met the desired/expectations of our President.
For those closer to Father Brooks they might state the events differently, but I think I am accurately reflecting the views of all others directly involved and had at least second hand conversations during each opportunity
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Post by hchoops on Dec 14, 2022 21:39:49 GMT -5
Thanks, efg So are you implying that the only reason Fr.Brooks opposed it the second time was he was unhappy with his role in the announcement ?
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Post by football44 on Dec 15, 2022 5:43:34 GMT -5
Thanks, efg So are you implying that the only reason Fr.Brooks opposed it the second time was he was unhappy with his role in the announcement ? Hoops regardless of efgs implications Fr. Brooks (I loved Fr Brooks) made a huge mistake in not allowing our bball team to join the Big East. Killed our opportunity to cash in on some big time dollars. The league was a huge success and as they added more schools Fr. Brooks kept saying no.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 15, 2022 8:16:36 GMT -5
Thanks, efg So are you implying that the only reason Fr.Brooks opposed it the second time was he was unhappy with his role in the announcement ? No I tried to connect the dots back then, but honestly believe he never wanted it, didn't think it would happen, and came up with a reason to say no. But that is just an opinion, and for others that better understand the second decision by Father Brooks are more likely to offer a more complete and factual response.
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Post by mm67 on Dec 15, 2022 9:05:31 GMT -5
Certainly, I could never speak for Fr. Brooks but this is my understanding of his views. I believe Fr. Brooks' vision for the future of HC was as a small, elite liberal arts college closer to the Amherst, Williams model. He did not believe it was wise for the school to emphasize athletics. He was expecting students to be attracted to HC not for athletics but primarily for its academics as with the NESCAC schools. He believed HC was an academic institution and had concerns with time spent on sports by students, loss of class time and the attenuating of the focus on studies by students engaged in sports.Heard him say those students who extended their football season by participating in bowl games should have a saliva test. In other words long post season play took too much for students to successfully engage in rigorous studies. (Clearly some of this thinking might explain the refusal of the IL schools to participate in post season playoffs.) As he often stated it was his belief that Holy Cross was the "flagship of Catholic higher education." He wanted HC to move up to a more prominent place in the wider world of higher education. Obviously, HC has gone in a different direction . Peace.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 15, 2022 9:24:28 GMT -5
Thanks mm67--
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Post by Xmassader on Dec 15, 2022 10:39:44 GMT -5
Let me tell you my version and others may share your perspective Late Saturday evening George, Ronnie and Dave had the new league in place. On Sunday morning they notified Brooks of the announcement on Monday regarding the newly created Big East While he was fully informed of the ongoing conversations, he reacted as if his approval was taken for granted so he balked and refused publicly to joining a league where we had so little if anything in common academically with our other members. A few years later enter EBW as Chairman of the BOT and a couple of other alums who were ready to post the initiation fee as well as other commitments. Brooks for some reason wanted to have a bigger role in the announcement and when that didn't happen we backed away once more, much to the embarrassment of Ronnie, George, EBW and a couple of others. That ended the close relationship EBW had with Brooks, although EBW and his wife treated Holy Cross well through their Estate, although rumors are the $$$ might not have met the desired/expectations of our President. For those closer to Father Brooks they might state the events differently, but I think I am accurately reflecting the views of all others directly involved and had at least second hand conversations during each opportunity efg72 has it right in that there were two opportunities for HC to join the Big East, the first at the time of formation (‘78 or ‘79) and the second in the early ‘80s (‘81-‘82). My understanding of the first “rejection” relates, as efg72 indicates, to Fr. Brooks’ reluctance to go along with a decision driven primarily by ADs and coaches rather than school presidents and concerns that being a member of the BE would put pressure on HC to admit players who were not academically qualified. I had heard that on the weekend that efg72 references, Fr. Monan, the BC president at the time had contacted Fr. Brooks indicating that the BE was pressing BC for a decision and asking Fr. Brooks what he/HC was going to do. Supposedly, Fr. Brooks asked Fr. Monan who was making the decisions at BC, him or the athletic administration, and indicated to Fr. Monan that he/HC would not be rushed into a decision. Then Fr. Monan and BC made their own decision and BC became an original member. In the second rejection, it is my understanding that EBW, RP Sr. and GB met with Fr. Brooks in his office and EBW, the great advocate that he was, spoke for 45 minutes in favor of HC joining the BE. I have heard that Fr. Brooks remained silent through the entire presentation and that, when EBW was finished speaking, EBW purportedly said “Well, I guess I’m 0 for 45” and he, RP Sr. and GB left the office. As for any purported EBW fallout from that second rejection, I have no knowledge. Fr. Brooks was a tremendous President for HC (helping to get the College on sound financial footing, initiating co-education, creating a more diverse student body, overseeing substantial improvements to the school’s campus and physical plant). However, history has shown that his decision regarding the BE, while well-intentioned on his part, was not the best. I believe that his main concern was that membership in the BE would cause the academic profile of the school as a whole and that of the recruited athletes (particularly in football and men’s basketball) to fall at the expense of a higher athletic profile, a “cost”, in his perspective that he was not willing to see HC pay. Instead, what we have seen over the last 43 years is that the comparative academic profiles of a number of BE members (BC, Georgetown, Villanova, Xavier) vis-a-vis HC from 1980 to date has improved. This is not to state that membership in the BE was solely responsible for that comparative improvement or that membership in the BE would have necessarily improved HC’s comparative standing but rather, simply, to say that it is very unlikely that membership in the BE would have diminished HC’s academic standing. As for athletics, particularly, men’s basketball, the decision has also proved to be far from the best. One needs to look no further than the history of HC and UCONN pre and post BE. Suffice it to say that a favorite question from me to several Midwest hoop fans is “HC and UCONN have played 64 games all-time in hoops, how many wins does HC have?” Invariably the answer is “10”, “15”, or “20” not the “42” that it actually is. Pre-BE: HC-2 Final Fours, 1 NCAA title, 1 NIT title UCONN-0 Final Fours, 0 NCAA titles, 0 NIT titles. Post BE: HC-0 Final Fours, 0 NCAA titles, 0 NIT titles UCONN-5 Final Fours, 4 NCAA titles, 1 NIT title. Helps put in perspective hc87’s feelings and those of many of us about the BE decision.
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Post by hchoops on Dec 15, 2022 11:06:26 GMT -5
Thanks for the details, Xmass One question. What did Fr.Brooks mean by “I’m 0 for 45”. ?
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Post by timholycross on Dec 15, 2022 13:28:12 GMT -5
Given the timeline mentioned (which seems pretty accurate to me); if I'm correct that EBW gave HC a good chunk of money to rebuild Fitton in 1985-6; I'd say he got over the rejection. Plus, the stadium donation meant tacit approval of the Patriot (then Colonial) League move.
There was also a dalliance with the Atlantic 10 (not sure what it's name was at the time, Eastern 8, perhaps). HC was supposed to join, the anticipated transaction appeared in print; then a day or two later other schools were announced as being in, not HC.
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Post by Xmassader on Dec 15, 2022 13:52:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the details, Xmass One question. What did Fr.Brooks mean by “I’m 0 for 45”. ? hchoops. It was EBW that said “I guess I’m 0 for 45”, meaning he hadn’t gotten a favorable response from Fr. Brooks after his 45 minute presentation. Corrected my previous post to change “he” to “EBW” to clarify.
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Post by hchoops on Dec 15, 2022 13:58:39 GMT -5
Merci
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Post by mm67 on Dec 15, 2022 14:55:55 GMT -5
There is no doubt that at least SOME of the BE players and those in big time football programs would not have been academically qualified to attend BE schools and most certainly HC, too. Schools such as BC, UConn, Georgetown have a much larger enrollment and are thus able to "hide" these low academic students in various lower level classes. HC is a small college. These students would have a proportionally larger impact on the academic profile of the student body. Where is HC going to hide them? Also, the HC policy of having teams which are academically representative of the student body would be rendered moot. HC is not UConn, BC, St. John's, Georgetown & the rest. This is not academic snobbery. HC is a small liberal arts college with academically challenging classes. HC's policies are a reflection of the school. I suspect changes in the NCAA landscape under former Mass Gov. Baker will have greater impact on HC sports than anything else. Peace.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 15, 2022 15:33:20 GMT -5
HC’s endowment per student exceeds bc and Georgetown for sure and I’d guess UConn as well. For a distinguished and high profile school, I don’t think Gtown has a big endowment.
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Post by Ignutz on Dec 15, 2022 15:50:28 GMT -5
There is no doubt that at least SOME of the BE players and those in big time football programs would not have been academically qualified to attend BE schools and most certainly HC, too. Schools such as BC, UConn, Georgetown have a much larger enrollment and are thus able to "hide" these low academic students in various lower level classes. HC is a small college. These students would have a proportionally larger impact on the academic profile of the student body. Where is HC going to hide them? Also, the HC policy of having teams which are academically representative of the student body would be rendered moot. HC is not UConn, BC, St. John's, Georgetown & the rest. This is not academic snobbery. HC is a small liberal arts college with academically challenging classes. HC's policies are a reflection of the school. I suspect changes in the NCAA landscape under former Mass Gov. Baker will have greater impact on HC sports than anything else. Peace. It's my understanding that Fr. Brooks just plain did not like BC. I was also told, by a HIGHLY reliable source, back in the years we're discussing, that when Fr. Brooks was asked what the primary difference (athletically) between HC and BC was, he emphatically stated, "BC has room to hide people." - as you note. I also recall that in the late-70s or so, there was a bit of a kerfuffle over the fact that a prominent BC basketball player was enrolled, or at least taking a significant portion of his course load, in the night-school. That's certainly a hiding place that HC didn't, and will never, have!
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Post by efg72 on Dec 15, 2022 16:02:30 GMT -5
You don't need to hide kids; you need to support them with the right tools so they can adjust and grow as students and contribute to the world after graduation. If you just throw some students out there without the tools, then a hiding place won't cut it either.
And btw we all know students, athletes, and non-athletes that did not have the grades and test scores to attend Holy Cross. But they were admitted, worked hard, graduated, and have been significant contributors to society. Others with all the grades and scores didn't do the work and didn't benefit from the experience.
Work with students who want to attend and help them succeed.
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Post by mm67 on Dec 15, 2022 17:13:41 GMT -5
efg Agree entirely with the need to support students. Obviously, different schools have different profiles and play a different role. HC is not a comprehensive university with different levels of students spanning a wide spectrum of academic/non-academic abilities. HC does not offer remedial classes as well as a GED as did St. John's in a summer program(first hand knowledge) All colleges including HC & the IL admit "borderline" students. However I was not thinking about borderline students but those much lower in reference to the BE, etc. When student athletes are to a large degree below level academically then the non-academic intent of the school is obvious. It is common knowledge that all schools with big time athletic programs make big time compromises to accommodate athletes - admissions, coursework & exams, housing, graduation rates & whatever. This includes those high profile schools with clean athletic programs. If HC were to join the BE the pressure to make large scale academic compromises to compete would be irresistible. Simply put, HC would have to make big time compromises to successfully compete in the big time. Up to this point HC has never made these type of wholesale compromises. Hope & expect HC will never go down this road. "Oh raise thy voice..." Peace.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 15, 2022 17:27:36 GMT -5
I am referring to those well below the line that are incredible people, sons and daughters of alums, that love Holy Cross, and are important to it's future.
The education is rigorous, but once in the environment people rise to the occasion. We are a special school and for those that truly want to attend the school, get it and will overcome deficiencies and mistakes, because the love Holy Cross like we do!
I am all for growing the school to 3500 students, being great academically, knocking it out of the park athletically, and increasing the spiritual experience of our students, while building a more moderate base among the faculty and the Administration. If we do this we can impact the future and the legacy of our great institution.
Merry Christmas and God bless to one and all my dear friends through a vehicle we never imagined 50 years ago
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 17, 2022 17:54:31 GMT -5
Damn, after seeing what SDSU is doing to Montana St today, we really weren't all that far away from -- to quote Jake Taylor -- "win[ning] the whole f****** thing"
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Post by alum on Dec 17, 2022 18:03:26 GMT -5
Damn, after seeing what SDSU is doing to Montana St today, we really weren't all that far away from -- to quote Jake Taylor -- "win[ning] the whole f****** thing" Hope any undecided recruits or seniors who can come back next year watch this and figure they could be national champs next year.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 17, 2022 18:06:05 GMT -5
Yup!
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Post by JRGNYR on Dec 17, 2022 20:12:42 GMT -5
Damn, after seeing what SDSU is doing to Montana St today, we really weren't all that far away from -- to quote Jake Taylor -- "win[ning] the whole f****** thing" More ammo that HC was absolutely underseeded. Not that anybody on this board needs to be further convinced of that...
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Post by jkh67 on Dec 17, 2022 21:23:48 GMT -5
Let me tell you my version and others may share your perspective Late Saturday evening George, Ronnie and Dave had the new league in place. On Sunday morning they notified Brooks of the announcement on Monday regarding the newly created Big East While he was fully informed of the ongoing conversations, he reacted as if his approval was taken for granted so he balked and refused publicly to joining a league where we had so little if anything in common academically with our other members. A few years later enter EBW as Chairman of the BOT and a couple of other alums who were ready to post the initiation fee as well as other commitments. Brooks for some reason wanted to have a bigger role in the announcement and when that didn't happen we backed away once more, much to the embarrassment of Ronnie, George, EBW and a couple of others. That ended the close relationship EBW had with Brooks, although EBW and his wife treated Holy Cross well through their Estate, although rumors are the $$$ might not have met the desired/expectations of our President. For those closer to Father Brooks they might state the events differently, but I think I am accurately reflecting the views of all others directly involved and had at least second hand conversations during each opportunity Dudes, I believe most...I expect all...of us agree that not joining the Big East was a major league blunder. But that's mid-80's stuff and long since over. We are where we are and need to move on from here. There's no future in constantly rehashing an irrevocable past.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 17, 2022 21:38:50 GMT -5
Damn, after seeing what SDSU is doing to Montana St today, we really weren't all that far away from -- to quote Jake Taylor -- "win[ning] the whole f****** thing" More ammo that HC was absolutely underseeded. Not that anybody on this board needs to be further convinced of that... We’ve been out-recruiting (IMHO) much of the CAA AND finally leveled the playing field with our 5th years… put it together and we should be very near the top of the FCS (plus a great coach, supportive leadership, kids who have worked hard and developed, a couple of key blue-chippers, great facilities…) (Early this year I compared our incoming frosh with Nova’s and I think we brought in better players. IMHO. And Nova’s generally strong in the CAA. And then UNH’s coach said two weeks ago we were out recruiting them. And they’re generally good in the CAA too.)
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