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Post by gks on Dec 16, 2022 12:01:46 GMT -5
I like to have a historic rivalry and/or a regional team that will bring fans to Fitton. I do not see the need to play two Ivies or two Ivies plus an NEC or Big South. To me, our SoS will only be helped next year by BC and Army being FBS teams. Yale should be good and help SoS a bit. Some could make an argument that Colgate and Lafayette are on the upswing and Lehigh is bound to improve a tad with a new coaching staff, but none of those games help our SoS. Yes everyone wants winnable games that count (that's why most FBS teams schedule an OOC or FCS cupcake here and there) but we also need to think about SoS. HC is in a unique position perhaps alongside the Ivy champ or runner-up (if they went to the playoffs) in being a current FCS football power from the Northeast. We can speculate about what CAA teams would bring fans, etc, but we really don't know outside of UNH. I would like to see that game be a regular/biennial match-up. I still feel like something is incomplete. If 'Gate is Sept. 23 and Laffy is Oct. 21, that's 3 weeks. Even with the Harvard game and a bye in there, we are still missing one game in that stretch. It is no secret that the level of play in the PL this past season is the sole reason HC was seeded 8 and resulted in a trip to lovely South Dakota. Ivies don't help either. A four, five or six seed makes a big difference. Moving forward If HC is serious about competing on a national level playing multiple Ivies in a season will have to be looked at. I'd keep Yale and tell Harvard to pound sand. Can't wait for next year.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 16, 2022 12:09:52 GMT -5
Are 12 games allowed next season The schedule above has 11 There have to be 14 Saturdays between the Saturday of LDW and the last Saturday of November. Only 13 in 2023, which means an 11 game season.
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Post by JRGNYR on Dec 16, 2022 12:24:21 GMT -5
Don't disagree with the numerous factors in scheduling and even SOS, but looking at programs over time does give some predictability and to a degree influences SOS rankings going into a season. I don't disagree with your point here, but I think overall you're conflating SOS at the start of the season with SOS at NCAA Selections or at least not making enough of a differentiation between the two. They're not the same and can mean two very different things by the time the season plays out. The selection committee wasn't looking at Harvard's track record the last 5 years when they looked at HC's schedule and were determining seeds. They saw that Harvard was 6-4 this year. The criteria for selections and seeding doesn't look at years beyond the current competitive one. There is, however, a very important distinction to be made between a top-flight non-con schedule for competitive purposes and a schedule that might excite the older alumni. Playing Dartmouth/Yale/Harvard probably ignites the nostalgic juices a bit more and generates interest with that demo. But is that the best non-con schedule HC can put together for postseason access and success? It'll vary from year to year, but lately the answer would have to be no. Like I mentioned in another post, scheduling requires two to tango. I think playing Harvard annually makes a lot of sense for a number of reasons - competitively, geographically, budgetarily. The same can be said about UNH. I do think that it's a great disservice to the Ivy League players that they don't get to play in the FCS postseason. There's been plenty of years where the Ivy champion would've made a significant amount of noise in the playoffs. I think that holds the league back in terms of how the rest of the country perceives them and how all of us can attempt to analyze the competitiveness of the Ivy vs. the rest of FCS.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Dec 16, 2022 12:35:53 GMT -5
My own impression from reading different message boards was that outside of this region, the majority of fans look at Ivy and PL football as Nerd football, and assume the PL does not offer any schollies at all. Hopefully HC opened some eyes of those who may have tuned into the SDSU game.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 16, 2022 12:38:33 GMT -5
I agree with your points, which is why I said at the start of the season, as it changes during the season. For example, a schedule with our PL opponents, an FBS or two ( in a 12 games season), three games against teams that regularly compete in the playoffs, and one game against the ivies would probably give us a much different SOS than the one we had for the last few years. I might be wrong, and probably worth debating, I guess.
If the three OOC games came from the following list of schools- Richmond, W&M, NOVA, UNH, Delaware, and possibly URI, we would likely draw more to Fitton, but that is, at best, a guess on my part.
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Post by bfoley82 on Dec 16, 2022 13:01:59 GMT -5
They have no reputation for SOS If we remain in the PL we need to have a top 20 SOS for the playoffs, as not every regular season will we be 11-0 Reputation means very, very little for SOS except for a place like a message board. Many on this board (myself included) looked at the schedule at the start of the season and figured beating Harvard and Yale would be helpful for our SOS. That was an assertion based on reputation and how those teams had fared the last few years. As luck would have it, while beating Harvard and Yale was certainly something that pumped up the alumni, it really didn't matter much for SOS. Yale wound up having a very good season, won the Ivy League and finished 8-2. Harvard was down, finished 4-3 in the Ivy and 6-4 overall. The win didn't look as impressive as the season went on, even though to us as alums it meant a lot more. Meanwhile, for those of you clamoring to see Dartmouth on the schedule, they finished 3-7 overall, 2-5 in the Ivy. Merrimack went 8-3 and 6-1 in the NEC. The challenge with building an effective non-con schedule is it's all an attempt at being predictive. A slate that looks really good in August in terms of quality might look completely different by the time NCAA selections come. There's also an art to non-con scheduling that I think many of you are missing. There's benefits to playing teams like Bryant or Merrimack or whomever for a variety of reasons. It could be the opponent's style of play, their packages, their athleticism, their combinations, their play calling, etc. etc. that can give HC different looks during the season and better prepare them for those types of opponents in the postseason. In short, while you might have some issues with the construction of the non-con schedule, it's done with a level of thought and discernment by Coach and the administration for reasons that you probably aren't recognizing. The schedule they put together on a year-to-year basis is a reflection of the competition they want (hope) to get that will make the team better as the year goes on. Simple as that. The thinking behind schedule creation in the 2020s has to go beyond "We played a team a lot 60 years ago and because of that we should play them again." Would it be nice to see Dartmouth on the schedule again? Sure, why not. But does playing them when they're 2-5 in the Ivy help Holy Cross? Well, would it have helped them more than playing a good Merrimack team that lost to Harvard by a TD (Harvard beat Dartmouth by 2 scores)? Would it have been better than Bryant? Buffalo? Remember you have to GUESS SOS usually 4-5 years in advance as many games are scheduled years ahead of time.
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Post by bfoley82 on Dec 16, 2022 14:48:25 GMT -5
A dose of reality. And, when HC is 2-4 in the PL as is most certain, who would want to play HC? Dartmouth dropped HC for reasons of its own.The game meant more to HC fans than to Dartmouth followers. IL teams do not gain by playing HC. Most consider HC a liitle school, a mere afterthought. That is the truth. In fact I have heard HC mocked by some as being a legend in its own mind, the best school in central Mass. Bush league school, bush league fans, (BC) CAA schools are not falling over each other in rushing to schedule HC the little school from somewhere or is it nowhere. I do not agree with any of these insults and I have countered them up front & personal. Let's get real. Enjoy the amazing job AD does in putting together a schedule. The previous AD's likely put most of these schedules together....
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 16, 2022 14:50:43 GMT -5
I know well that a team’s strength varies from year to year. Still it is interesting to see who is leaving and who is being added to the schedule. Looks like these are leaving #111 Buffalo #200 Bryant # 163 Harvard (maybe?)
We are adding #114 bc # 77 Army
Our strength of schedule including playoff games in 2022 was #210 . I’ll bet it will be top 200 (wish it were even stronger) in 2023
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Post by hc87 on Dec 16, 2022 14:50:50 GMT -5
Are 12 games allowed next season The schedule above has 11 From my understanding, no. The 12 game schedule calendar comes up every 5 years or so and is in back to back years. The next ones are 2024 and 2025. Based on an early Labor Day Saturday etc
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Post by gks on Dec 16, 2022 14:50:58 GMT -5
A dose of reality. And, when HC is 2-4 in the PL as is most certain, who would want to play HC? Dartmouth dropped HC for reasons of its own.The game meant more to HC fans than to Dartmouth followers. IL teams do not gain by playing HC. Most consider HC a liitle school, a mere afterthought. That is the truth. In fact I have heard HC mocked by some as being a legend in its own mind, the best school in central Mass. Bush league school, bush league fans, (BC) CAA schools are not falling over each other in rushing to schedule HC the little school from somewhere or is it nowhere. I do not agree with any of these insults and I have countered them up front & personal. Let's get real. Enjoy the amazing job AD does in putting together a schedule. Then we should dump the Ivies altogether.
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Post by JRGNYR on Dec 16, 2022 15:18:31 GMT -5
Reputation means very, very little for SOS except for a place like a message board. Many on this board (myself included) looked at the schedule at the start of the season and figured beating Harvard and Yale would be helpful for our SOS. That was an assertion based on reputation and how those teams had fared the last few years. As luck would have it, while beating Harvard and Yale was certainly something that pumped up the alumni, it really didn't matter much for SOS. Yale wound up having a very good season, won the Ivy League and finished 8-2. Harvard was down, finished 4-3 in the Ivy and 6-4 overall. The win didn't look as impressive as the season went on, even though to us as alums it meant a lot more. Meanwhile, for those of you clamoring to see Dartmouth on the schedule, they finished 3-7 overall, 2-5 in the Ivy. Merrimack went 8-3 and 6-1 in the NEC. The challenge with building an effective non-con schedule is it's all an attempt at being predictive. A slate that looks really good in August in terms of quality might look completely different by the time NCAA selections come. There's also an art to non-con scheduling that I think many of you are missing. There's benefits to playing teams like Bryant or Merrimack or whomever for a variety of reasons. It could be the opponent's style of play, their packages, their athleticism, their combinations, their play calling, etc. etc. that can give HC different looks during the season and better prepare them for those types of opponents in the postseason. In short, while you might have some issues with the construction of the non-con schedule, it's done with a level of thought and discernment by Coach and the administration for reasons that you probably aren't recognizing. The schedule they put together on a year-to-year basis is a reflection of the competition they want (hope) to get that will make the team better as the year goes on. Simple as that. The thinking behind schedule creation in the 2020s has to go beyond "We played a team a lot 60 years ago and because of that we should play them again." Would it be nice to see Dartmouth on the schedule again? Sure, why not. But does playing them when they're 2-5 in the Ivy help Holy Cross? Well, would it have helped them more than playing a good Merrimack team that lost to Harvard by a TD (Harvard beat Dartmouth by 2 scores)? Would it have been better than Bryant? Buffalo? Remember you have to GUESS SOS usually 4-5 years in advance as many games are scheduled years ahead of time. This is also very much accurate.
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Post by trimster on Dec 16, 2022 16:07:22 GMT -5
A dose of reality. And, when HC is 2-4 in the PL as is most certain, who would want to play HC? Dartmouth dropped HC for reasons of its own.The game meant more to HC fans than to Dartmouth followers. IL teams do not gain by playing HC. Most consider HC a liitle school, a mere afterthought. That is the truth. In fact I have heard HC mocked by some as being a legend in its own mind, the best school in central Mass. Bush league school, bush league fans, (BC) CAA schools are not falling over each other in rushing to schedule HC the little school from somewhere or is it nowhere. I do not agree with any of these insults and I have countered them up front & personal. Let's get real. Enjoy the amazing job AD does in putting together a schedule. Then we should dump the Ivies altogether. A lot of tradition went out the window when HC joined the PL. New rivalries have never developed. I like the tradition that has carried on in playing Harvard and Yale on a regular basis and miss the matchups with Dartmouth. I really don't care what the Ivy followers think of playing HC. I like the fact many HC alums look forward to games against the New England Ivies.
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Post by cmo on Dec 16, 2022 16:20:43 GMT -5
Yes. Harvard and Yale games are much more interesting than Bucknell and Lehigh. And they’re closer.
Unfortunately, we have to play the PL.
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Post by Ignutz on Dec 16, 2022 16:44:03 GMT -5
Then we should dump the Ivies altogether. A lot of tradition went out the window when HC joined the PL. New rivalries have never developed. I like the tradition that has carried on in playing Harvard and Yale on a regular basis and miss the matchups with Dartmouth. I really don't care what the Ivy followers think of playing HC. I like the fact many HC alums look forward to games against the New England Ivies. I like beating the Ivies.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 16, 2022 17:17:15 GMT -5
I agree with your points, which is why I said at the start of the season, as it changes during the season. For example, a schedule with our PL opponents, an FBS or two ( in a 12 games season), three games against teams that regularly compete in the playoffs, and one game against the ivies would probably give us a much different SOS than the one we had for the last few years. I might be wrong, and probably worth debating, I guess. If the three OOC games came from the following list of schools- Richmond, W&M, NOVA, UNH, Delaware, and possibly URI, we would likely draw more to Fitton, but that is, at best, a guess on my part. We have two FBS games in an eleven game season next year and I don't think you mind. They are probably the best two FBS teams we want to play. Whoever scheduled them deserves praise even if it might be the sometimes maligned FADMB. It is very smooth the way HC has gradually increased the quality of FBS opponents from UCONN to Buffalo to Army and BC to coincide with it's own development. Can anybody think of any better FBS opponents than Army and BC for competitiveness, location in our two biggest areas of alumni/student concentration and history/tradition of playing them?
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Post by thecrossisback on Dec 16, 2022 17:30:15 GMT -5
Don’t care about beating the IVY they have 10 fans each.
If they don’t want the playoffs we don’t want them.
The schedule in advance thing is a joke it’s a 11 game schedule why do you need to make in 5 years in advance when all the other sports teams make them year to year?
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 16, 2022 17:43:08 GMT -5
Don’t care about beating the IVY they have 10 fans each. If they don’t want the playoffs we don’t want them. The schedule in advance thing is a joke it’s a 11 game schedule why do you need to make in 5 years in advance when all the other sports teams make them year to year? Because each of five or six home games is potentially a big revenue event, the road games can be big expense events and schools want to be able to plan how they will pay all the staff salaries, scholarships, travel and food for the most expensive sport they have with over 100 players and staff combined?
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Post by cruskater31 on Dec 16, 2022 19:39:34 GMT -5
I love the rivalries and saying we beat Harvard or Yale. That being said, one Ivy is enough with SoS. Bring in a top 20 OOC opponent for the other. Or...two Ivies and the FBS game...and get rid of the NEC for the top 20 game.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 16, 2022 20:21:14 GMT -5
Yes. Harvard and Yale games are much more interesting than Bucknell and Lehigh. And they’re closer. Unfortunately, we have to play the PL. URI and UNH are more interesting than Bucknell and Lehigh.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 16, 2022 20:28:20 GMT -5
I love the rivalries and saying we beat Harvard or Yale. That being said, one Ivy is enough with SoS. Bring in a top 20 OOC opponent for the other. Or...two Ivies and the FBS game...and get rid of the NEC for the top 20 game. "Bring in" meaning be willing to pay a guarantee to get a top 20 FCS OOC team to Fitton? Not sure if that is common but it should be an effective strategy to get a stronger schedule: buy it.
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Post by JRGNYR on Dec 16, 2022 21:34:03 GMT -5
Don’t care about beating the IVY they have 10 fans each. If they don’t want the playoffs we don’t want them. The schedule in advance thing is a joke it’s a 11 game schedule why do you need to make in 5 years in advance when all the other sports teams make them year to year? That’s how it’s been done for years. You set up non-con games several years out so you’re not left scrambling looking for a game late. It’s because inventory is so small compared to other sports.
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Post by JRGNYR on Dec 16, 2022 21:42:37 GMT -5
I agree with your points, which is why I said at the start of the season, as it changes during the season. For example, a schedule with our PL opponents, an FBS or two ( in a 12 games season), three games against teams that regularly compete in the playoffs, and one game against the ivies would probably give us a much different SOS than the one we had for the last few years. I might be wrong, and probably worth debating, I guess. If the three OOC games came from the following list of schools- Richmond, W&M, NOVA, UNH, Delaware, and possibly URI, we would likely draw more to Fitton, but that is, at best, a guess on my part. I would be in favor of seeing teams like Nova, UNH and URI on the schedule with regularity. Playing and beating those teams would look great on the resume at the end of the season. Part of the issue is travel, I suspect, at least as it pertains to Nova. They’re able to take short bus rides to Bucknell and Lehigh in the years they play them on the road. They have plenty of long trips in the CAA and probably don’t want to add a trip to HC if they can help it (trying to look at it from their perspective). The strength of their league doesn’t require them to schedule the same way in non-con the way HC or Fordham need/want to right now. They also have fewer non-con slots to fill compared to HC, so they can be choosy. That said, would love to see Nova on the schedule for 2-4 games.
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Post by fillfittonfield on Dec 16, 2022 22:09:51 GMT -5
I know this may sound crazy, but I see a comparison between our beloved Saders and the Gonzaga hoops team.
Our boys are dominating the Patriot League and it’s fun to talk about scheduling options and/or jumping into another conference.
For many years, Gonzaga was in a similar position (I assume they probably still are!). They dominate their conference, but their conference SOS brings their overall seeding/placement down every year.
Their solution? Play a very aggressive non conference schedule…and win!
While I’ll admit that I don’t have a love affair with the Patriot League, I do like that it gives us the opportunity to play lots of non conference football games of our choosing. This is something that is very unique and special. HC 87 has been saying this for many years and I am in agreement. We need to leverage this more to our advantage instead of viewing it as a negative. Let’s play 2 FBS games every year! Why not? We have the flexibility.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 16, 2022 22:15:27 GMT -5
Play FBS teams until they beat us.
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Post by HC92 on Dec 16, 2022 22:38:40 GMT -5
Next year’s Harvard and Yale games were agreed to in Sept 2014. We will play Harvard every year through 2025 and Yale every year through 2028 unless someone backs out of the contract.
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