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Post by Tom on Jan 22, 2023 7:01:45 GMT -5
He did take a team that could not win away games and won a string of all away games to take the PL tournament and an NCAA game. Clearly not as awful as some believe. Not the only yard stick, but. . PL quarter final record Coach Brown 1-4 Coach Carmody 2-2 Coach Nelson 0-0 Of course Coach Kearney 1-0. Although there is a theory that it might be more accurate to say Coach Daignault was 1-0
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 22, 2023 7:02:39 GMT -5
I can understand that a one year contract would be a non-started for any potential coach, especially a one with a family that needs to relocate. My belief is that you give a 3,4,5 year contract but with specific minimum goals (no, not win the PL championship in year 2 but minimum wins accelerating each year and failure to perform has a built-in early buy out at greatly reduced cost. Perhaps even incentives/bonuses to make it more attractive and potential for contract extensions. Gotta be creative both ways - to get out and to keep).
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Post by cmo on Jan 22, 2023 7:07:34 GMT -5
Basing it on wins scares me. Don’t want to see schedule dumbed down (any more).
Didn’t “20 wins baby!” get MB an extension?
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Post by hchoops on Jan 22, 2023 7:53:26 GMT -5
I can understand that a one year contract would be a non-started for any potential coach, especially a one with a family that needs to relocate. My belief is that you give a 3,4,5 year contract but with specific minimum goals (no, not win the PL championship in year 2 but minimum wins accelerating each year and failure to perform has a built-in early buy out at greatly reduced cost. Perhaps even incentives/bonuses to make it more attractive and potential for contract extensions. Gotta be creative both ways - to get out and to keep). Also a non starter
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Jan 22, 2023 7:55:05 GMT -5
IMHO FCMB needed a perfect storm to have won a title, that being - a run through the PL tournament that avoided coaches O'Hanlon and Brennan. That did not happen years 1-4; then in year 5 he had the OT/Malcolm Miller game against #1 seed Bucknell. Too lazy to look it up again, but I'm pretty sure he had a decent overall PL record minus those 2 coaches. I really think that a win over AU in the semis in 2014 might have gotten him a few extra years. He was a lot of things, but - he had the Boo Williams AAU connection, and his staff treated the fans/supporters of the program with respect (and some if I recall didn't even like that). At least one felt connected to the team. Not so much now (I realize the pandemic played a part in that, to a certain extent).
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Post by Xmassader on Jan 22, 2023 8:09:24 GMT -5
Basing it on wins scares me. Don’t want to see schedule dumbed down (any more). Didn’t “20 wins baby!” get MB an extension? As far as I know, FHCMB was given a five year contract in 2010 with a provision that if he had a winning season in either of his first two years the contract would be extended to six years. That occurred when he went 15-14 in 2010-11. He was let go after the OT loss to Bucknell in the PL tournament in 2015 (basically on the bus ride home). Don’t know what the buyout was for his sixth year. Full contract amount? Something less?
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 22, 2023 12:06:00 GMT -5
Basing it on wins scares me. Don’t want to see schedule dumbed down (any more). Didn’t “20 wins baby!” get MB an extension? Was going to add, but forgot, would exclude D-2, D-3 games toward win total. Could play them but not count. And, yes, I’m aware of the 20 win contract extension for Milan. Somewhat facetious but if we won 20 games against D-2/D-3 it would be an improvement. As for the rebuttal this is a “non-starter,” that’s the mentality that it won’t happen. I am not and never been the “we can’t do it because it’s never been done before” or “it’d ain’t broke, don’t fix it” school of thought. So, let’s just keep making the same mistakes.
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Post by hchoops on Jan 22, 2023 12:20:12 GMT -5
Basing it on wins scares me. Don’t want to see schedule dumbed down (any more). Didn’t “20 wins baby!” get MB an extension? Was going to add, but forgot, would exclude D-2, D-3 games toward win total. Could play them but not count. And, yes, I’m aware of the 20 win contract extension for Milan. Somewhat facetious but if we won 20 games against D-2/D-3 it would be an improvement. As for the rebuttal this is a “non-starter,” that’s the mentality that it won’t happen. I am not and never been the “we can’t do it because it’s never been done before” or “it’d ain’t broke, don’t fix it” school of thought. So, let’s just keep making the same mistakes. Since I wrote the original rebuttal, I will offer the second. I called it a non starter since that proposal is very unlikely to get a quality coach, especially one who has a good job, such as the D2-3 names mentioned. Why would a solid candidate move his family to a multi losing situation with your limitations, i.e. being fired after one or two seasons ? Even though he would have 9+ scholarships over 2 years (2+7), for most good coaches, it would take more than one or two seasons to develop them into a winner. Even Chesney did not win in his first season at HC. RW was 10-18 in year 1. How many wins would you put for next year’s team without Gates ? How about year 2 ?
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Post by mm67 on Jan 22, 2023 12:40:58 GMT -5
Small time team with big time pressures? Get real.
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Post by WorcesterGray on Jan 22, 2023 13:26:43 GMT -5
IMHO FCMB needed a perfect storm to have won a title, that being - a run through the PL tournament that avoided coaches O'Hanlon and Brennan. . . . pretty sure he had a decent overall PL record minus those 2 coaches. Right you are, sir. Regular season only . . .
Year vs. LC/AU vs. Rest 2010-11 1-4 6-3 2011-12 2-2 7-3 2012-13 1-3 3-7 2013-14 1-3 11-3
2014-15 1-3 7-7
5 Years 6-15 (.285) 34-23 (59.6%)
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Post by alum on Jan 22, 2023 13:58:36 GMT -5
I’m guessing this is a joke with the “he should have been whacked long ago” but here is how the conversation would actually go when Nelson gets fired: Prospective HC coach “hey buddy, how would you rank the HC head coaching position among the other gigs in the PL” Friend: “Tough place to win. Clearly the worst job in the PL.” Prospective HC coach: “Why do you say that” Friend: “In the last 15 or so years, how many total coaches in the PL have had a tenure of 5 years or less before they were fired? Prospective HC coach: “how many” Friend: “3. All three were at Holy Cross. That doesn’t count Bill Carmody who “retired”…” Why is "retired" in quotes? Makes it sound like it was something other than retirement Given the amount of money he was paid after he left, it is possible he was pushed out projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/42103558/202121349349304472/full
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Post by alum on Jan 22, 2023 14:00:07 GMT -5
This job pays twice (or more) what top D3 coaches make. It will attract interest from that group.
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 22, 2023 16:40:29 GMT -5
Was going to add, but forgot, would exclude D-2, D-3 games toward win total. Could play them but not count. And, yes, I’m aware of the 20 win contract extension for Milan. Somewhat facetious but if we won 20 games against D-2/D-3 it would be an improvement. As for the rebuttal this is a “non-starter,” that’s the mentality that it won’t happen. I am not and never been the “we can’t do it because it’s never been done before” or “it’d ain’t broke, don’t fix it” school of thought. So, let’s just keep making the same mistakes. Since I wrote the original rebuttal, I will offer the second. I called it a non starter since that proposal is very unlikely to get a quality coach, especially one who has a good job, such as the D2-3 names mentioned. So, are you saying you'd go with the standard 5 year contract with no less expensive buy-out regardless of results so a total failure gets to walk with a full wallet? How's that worked out for us? IMHO, most coaches, especially winning coaches, don't suffer from a fear of failure. Your experience/opinion might differ.Why would a solid candidate move his family to a multi losing situation with your limitations, i.e. being fired after one or two seasons ? 1. No matter what the contract says, a coach can get fired (read: Sean Kearney). 2, I stipulated that the contract would have very specific criteria. If the coach thinks he can't meet the criteria, he moves on to another opportunity. Or, most likely, negotiates a level of wins he thinks he can meet. And would probably make sure he had a cushion. Even though he would have 9+ scholarships over 2 years (2+7), for most good coaches, it would take more than one or two seasons to develop them into a winner. Great and probably correct, though it only took Chesney 2 years with a team 4-5 times the size. Who said the coach would be axed after 2 seasons? But I'm sick of this cr@p that a coach "needs all his own recruits to win" stuff. You didn't say that but some posters have in the past. [and, yes, the football team Chesney inherited was not as bad as the basketball program currently is for the next BB coach]Even Chesney did not win in his first season at HC. See above. So stipulated. RW was 10-18 in year 1.No need for strawmen. I never said year 1, or 2. My point is, if a coach is an utter failure, if the criteria for success are established up-front and the coach can't meet those standards, the AD has the option to release the coach without giving him a multi-year full ride. How many wins would you put for next year’s team without Gates ? More than a 3-29 record, especially when you have 2 D-3 teams on the schedule. Or is that too high a bar? How about year 2 ? TBD
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Post by longsuffering on Jan 22, 2023 17:03:31 GMT -5
I think you are barking up the right tree when you flesh out the options for a hybrid (somewhere between employee at will and five years fully guaranteed) contract. I'll clarify that when I made my original post and quoted a hypothetical future HC AD saying "We'll give you full support" I meant full throttled enthusiastic support that doesn't sugarcoat the challenges to win at Holy Cross so that a 10-18 RW or a 5-6(?) Chesney would never get axed in their early years but a coach who turns out to be a poor fit for HC wouldn't hold the college and it's fanbase hostage for four years or cost a million bucks to buy out.
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Post by efg72 on Jan 22, 2023 17:34:45 GMT -5
A guaranteed four year contract -fifth year a school option with an additional $150k bonus
If an established winning D1 coach for a transition Base of $450-$500k
Incentives each year for wins above x, but a top 50-100 OOC schedule Year one 12 wins or more $50k Year two 16 wins or more $75k Year three 18 wins or more $125k Years four and five 22 wins or more $200k
D2/D3 proven head coach base $300k
If released after four years payout at 70% of highest total compensation
If they depart for another school the new school has a buyout of three times the highest salary.
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Post by trimster on Jan 22, 2023 18:40:03 GMT -5
Was going to add, but forgot, would exclude D-2, D-3 games toward win total. Could play them but not count. And, yes, I’m aware of the 20 win contract extension for Milan. Somewhat facetious but if we won 20 games against D-2/D-3 it would be an improvement. As for the rebuttal this is a “non-starter,” that’s the mentality that it won’t happen. I am not and never been the “we can’t do it because it’s never been done before” or “it’d ain’t broke, don’t fix it” school of thought. So, let’s just keep making the same mistakes. Since I wrote the original rebuttal, I will offer the second. I called it a non starter since that proposal is very unlikely to get a quality coach, especially one who has a good job, such as the D2-3 names mentioned. Why would a solid candidate move his family to a multi losing situation with your limitations, i.e. being fired after one or two seasons ? Even though he would have 9+ scholarships over 2 years (2+7), for most good coaches, it would take more than one or two seasons to develop them into a winner. Even Chesney did not win in his first season at HC. RW was 10-18 in year 1. How many wins would you put for next year’s team without Gates ? How about year 2 ? RW's first team at HC, (10-18 record), was devastated by injuries to starters and a key man off the bench. There is no way that team would have been 10-18 if healthy.
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 22, 2023 19:56:53 GMT -5
Too lazy to look it up between watching football (how about that Dallas place kicker?!!), but didn’t Ralph’s first team beat PC at the Dunk? I was there.
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Post by longsuffering on Jan 22, 2023 20:08:13 GMT -5
A guaranteed four year contract -fifth year a school option with an additional $150k bonus If an established winning D1 coach for a transition Base of $450-$500k Incentives each year for wins above x, but a top 50-100 OOC schedule Year one 12 wins or more $50k Year two 16 wins or more $75k Year three 18 wins or more $125k Years four and five 22 wins or more $200k D2/D3 proven head coach base $300k If released after four years payout at 70% of highest total compensation If they depart for another school the new school has a buyout of three times the highest salary. Where would HC get the money to buy a top 50-100 OOC schedule? When Holy Cross schedules weak opponents our board screams bloody murder. So wouldn't top 50-100 ADs and Head Coaches suffer the same blow back if they scheduled a team at HC's level that acts as a dead weight on their SOS, and that's if they win. Take the abuse dished out when HC loses to a D-3 and multiply it for the larger following of a top 50-100 program if HC were to win. I can see Holy Cross increasing their OOC strength of schedule incrementally if our own performance improves but to average top 50-100 would require buying multiple expensive guarantee games I would think.
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Post by Tom on Jan 22, 2023 20:11:26 GMT -5
RW's first team at HC, (10-18 record), was devastated by injuries to starters and a key man off the bench. There is no way that team would have been 10-18 if healthy. Other than Curry, Pegues, Whearty, Serrevalle, and McKiever, I don't remember anyone missing 10ish plus games
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Post by hchoops on Jan 22, 2023 20:12:24 GMT -5
Guarantee games are almost always home games for the Power 6 opponent. The lower conference team is guaranteed a certain sum of money, such as Creighton gave to HC this season. Lower conference teams do not buy guarantee games.
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Post by efg72 on Jan 22, 2023 20:16:07 GMT -5
A guaranteed four year contract -fifth year a school option with an additional $150k bonus If an established winning D1 coach for a transition Base of $450-$500k Incentives each year for wins above x, but a top 50-100 OOC schedule Year one 12 wins or more $50k Year two 16 wins or more $75k Year three 18 wins or more $125k Years four and five 22 wins or more $200k D2/D3 proven head coach base $300k If released after four years payout at 70% of highest total compensation If they depart for another school the new school has a buyout of three times the highest salary. Where would HC get the money to buy a top 50-100 OOC schedule? When Holy Cross schedules weak opponents our board screams bloody murder. So wouldn't top 50-100 ADs and Head Coaches suffer the same blow back if they scheduled a team at HC's level that acts as a dead weight on their SOS, and that's if they win. Take the abuse dished out when HC loses to a D-3 and multiply it for the larger following of a top 50-100 program if HC were to win. I can see Holy Cross increasing their OOC strength of schedule incrementally if our own performance improves but to average top 50-100 would require buying multiple expensive guarantee games I would think. They would be buy in games- approximately 5 of the 13 games-just an opinion to speed up development of the roster and improved performance
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Post by longsuffering on Jan 22, 2023 22:04:39 GMT -5
Where would HC get the money to buy a top 50-100 OOC schedule? When Holy Cross schedules weak opponents our board screams bloody murder. So wouldn't top 50-100 ADs and Head Coaches suffer the same blow back if they scheduled a team at HC's level that acts as a dead weight on their SOS, and that's if they win. Take the abuse dished out when HC loses to a D-3 and multiply it for the larger following of a top 50-100 program if HC were to win. I can see Holy Cross increasing their OOC strength of schedule incrementally if our own performance improves but to average top 50-100 would require buying multiple expensive guarantee games I would think. They would be buy in games- approximately 5 of the 13 games-just an opinion to speed up development of the roster and improved performance Buy-in financed by ticket sales? The CAF was originated to be solely in addition to regular ongoing expenses and used for extra expenses that a guarantee would qualify for but like most things I assume it has started to be counted on for regular expenses and MBB probably isn't getting that much contributed to it these days. I wonder how much it would cost to get UConn, PC or UMass to come to the DCU Center? My first choice would be UMass because I think they would require the smallest guarantee and bring the most fans to the Woo. The first time I saw the phrase "UMass Worcester" was during a Bruiser Flint coached UMass game at the Centrum vs South Carolina and it was on a banner in the stands hung by a boisterous group of UMass Medical School staff and students cheering on their Minutemen. The Medical School has a budget for community involvement. They would be a good candidate to be a corporate sponsor of a game against UMass. That might be a good way to help finance games against higher rated teams, to ask businesses who want to support Worcester to help sponsor games at the DCU Center.
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Post by Xmassader on Jan 22, 2023 22:37:57 GMT -5
Matt Langel’s coaching record at Colgate:
First six years: 71-117 (.378) overall 42-58 (.420) PL regular season 2-6 (.250) PL tournament 6 straight losing seasons 3 20 loss seasons 0 PL regular season or tournament titles
Last six years: 119-55 (.684) overall 74-18 (.804) PL regular season 13-2 (.867) PL tournament 3 20 win seasons w. another on the way 5 straight winning seasons w. a 6th on the way 4 PL regular season and 3 tournament titles
Hard to believe that Colgate kept him around after the first 6 years and hard to believe the 180 degree change in performance and record in the last 6 years. Quite frankly, I’m not sure which is the more amazing.
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Post by longsuffering on Jan 22, 2023 23:52:21 GMT -5
Matt Langel’s coaching record at Colgate: First six years: 71-117 (.378) overall 42-58 (.420) PL regular season 2-6 (.250) PL tournament 6 straight losing seasons 3 20 loss seasons 0 PL regular season or tournament titles Last six years: 119-55 (.684) overall 74-18 (.804) PL regular season 13-2 (.867) PL tournament 3 20 win seasons w. another on the way 5 straight winning seasons w. a 6th on the way 4 PL regular season and 3 tournament titles Hard to believe that Colgate kept him around after the first 6 years and hard to believe the 180 degree change in performance and record in the last 6 years. Quite frankly, I’m not sure which is the more amazing. So we only have two more years to wander in the desert.😒 I think the wait might have been easier at Colgate because they didn't have as high expectations for their BB program as HC does. I pity the next CU coach after Langel. He will be on the hot seat sooner if he doesn't win due to the current winning.
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 23, 2023 6:17:34 GMT -5
Without looking it up, unlike Holy Cross, Colgate was not a “basketball school.” They were a “football school.”
It’s mostly a matter of fan/alum expectations.
Langel had/has a much longer rope than any Holy Cross basketball coach. Yes, NCAA and NIT championships were ancient history but Willard’s teams were still fresh in most Crusader fans’ memories and while our expectations are low for most sports, not for basketball or now football.
With the great Hanover field and historic national baseball championship, you’d think we’d want to be better and put more resources in baseball but then again, the New England weather makes that an uphill climb.
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