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Post by purplehaze on Apr 19, 2023 10:03:06 GMT -5
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Post by DFW HOYA on Apr 19, 2023 12:39:29 GMT -5
Their inclusion in the Big East has not worked out and has probably made their financial situation worse - but the major issues are more foundational - will we hear about small private schools in trouble as the end of the academic year approaches ? DePaul overexpanded in the 2010s and it is dependent on high school graduates in the Chicago area, which are on the decline. Half of DePaul students come from Chicago or its suburbs. A $56 million loss is not terminal for DePaul given that it is well managed and has a stronger than average endowment ($825 million). Some concern, however, should be paid for small-enrollment Catholic schools with endowments under $90 million. Some familiar Jesuit names on this list include Detroit-Mercy ($83 million), Rockhurst ($45 million) St. Peter's NJ ($37 million), and Spring Hill, AL ($19 million).
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Post by bison137 on Apr 19, 2023 13:27:27 GMT -5
Forbes gave DePaul a financial grade of C+ in their ratings last summer. Not good, but definitely not terminal. There are a lot worse grades, colleges who may be in trouble, such as:
La Salle D St. Peter's D Canisius D Rider D Niagara C- Mt. St. Mary's D St. Francis (PA) D Merrimack D
No doubt that at least some of these grades will improve as covid gets further into the rear view mirror.
Most of the Patriot League gets good grades, with the exception of Loyola (C).
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Apr 19, 2023 13:28:28 GMT -5
Forbes gave DePaul a financial grade of C+ in their ratings last summer. Not good, but definitely not terminal. There are a lot worse grades, colleges who may be in trouble, such as: La Salle D St. Peter's D Canisius D Rider D Niagara C- Mt. St. Mary's D St. Francis (PA) D Merrimack D No doubt that at least some of these grades will improve as covid gets further into the rear view mirror. Most of the Patriot League gets good grades, with the exception of Loyola (C). So what you're saying is the MAAC is on thin ice.
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Post by bison137 on Apr 19, 2023 13:47:43 GMT -5
Forbes gave DePaul a financial grade of C+ in their ratings last summer. Not good, but definitely not terminal. There are a lot worse grades, colleges who may be in trouble, such as: La Salle D St. Peter's D Canisius D Rider D Niagara C- Mt. St. Mary's D St. Francis (PA) D Merrimack D No doubt that at least some of these grades will improve as covid gets further into the rear view mirror. Most of the Patriot League gets good grades, with the exception of Loyola (C). So what you're saying is the MAAC is on thin ice. Yes, you could say that. Also I forgot to list Manhattan, which has a C- grade. The best MAAC grade is a C+.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Apr 19, 2023 14:13:34 GMT -5
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Post by Xmassader on Apr 19, 2023 22:43:15 GMT -5
Alma mater at 99th with a B+ grade. Seems to me that when this listing was posted in the past, the ranking and grade were both higher but I may be mistaken. If my impression is accurate, any thoughts on the reason(s) for the change.
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Post by matunuck on Apr 20, 2023 5:48:18 GMT -5
Alma mater at 99th with a B+ grade. Seems to me that when this listing was posted in the past, the ranking and grade were both higher but I may be mistaken. If my impression is accurate, any thoughts on the reason(s) for the change. You are correct. Assume it’s largely tied to the new construction and higher interest rates. This is Phreek’s lane.
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Post by alum on Apr 20, 2023 7:45:55 GMT -5
I looked at the Forbes grades for some schools that interest me--the old Northeast 7/8/10 Catholics and then expanded to other similar schools. Here are the grades:
St. Mikes 1.46 D St. A's 1.88 C Merrimack 1.33 D Stonehill 2.26 C+ Assumption 2.16 C
Quinnipiac 2.19 C+ New Haven 1.18 D AIC 1.18 D Bentley 2.15 C Bryant 1.97 C UHart 1.62 C- Franklin Pierce 1.41 D SNHU 2.88 D Springfield 1.75 C-
It is an interesting mix. We have schools like Merrimack and now New Haven trying to go D1 despite having some financial challenges. They have obviously decided that higher level sports will help right the ship. UHart, as we know, has decided to go in the opposite direction.
Quinnipiac went D1 and also aggressively built its physical plant, purchased a law school and started a med school over the last thirty years. I think that they have succeeded although I imagine the amount of debt they carry affects the grade.
SNHU has turned itself into a national online school in addition to its regular operation. I am guessing that this has worked financially for it.
I am getting worried about St. Mike's. Enrollment is down by 40% in ten years and there is a shrinking number of full time faculty. When you offer as many programs as they do (full set of liberal arts majors plus business, education, IT, even engineering) for a student body of 1200, it is going to be hard to fully staff every department.
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Post by mm67 on Apr 20, 2023 8:16:47 GMT -5
Enrollment numbers are down nationally. Self identified religious affiliation down across the board. The liberal arts are facing challenges. It seems there is likely to be a further culling of the herd with only those schools with the strongest financials surviving. I suspect RC schools will be especially hard hit as have been RC high schools. It appears HC has been proactive in building & broadening. PVR is on his way to becoming a once in a generation transformative leader.(Hope it continues. Don't want him to enter the Transfer Portal.)Interest rates were low. It was a good time to spend other people's money on construction to broaden the appeal of the school. Of course athletics success is a part of the equation. Next will be massive fund raising to double the endowment, pay down debt and provide greater student financial support and higher faculty & staff salaries. Gotta' get the best to be the best. School of Dreams: If you build a great school students will come? HC is a great school and will attain ever greater heights. GoCrossGo
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 20, 2023 22:50:35 GMT -5
Forbes gave DePaul a financial grade of C+ in their ratings last summer. Not good, but definitely not terminal. There are a lot worse grades, colleges who may be in trouble, such as: La Salle D St. Peter's D Canisius D Rider D Niagara C- Mt. St. Mary's D St. Francis (PA) D Merrimack D No doubt that at least some of these grades will improve as covid gets further into the rear view mirror. Most of the Patriot League gets good grades, with the exception of Loyola (C). So what you're saying is the MAAC is on thin ice. Couple of AHA teams on the list.
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Post by lehighowl on Apr 23, 2023 0:10:16 GMT -5
As someone who got their M.Ed. from DePaul, seeing the institution in a negative light is naturally both disconcerting and a bit saddening. With that said, generally speaking, DePaul is still a reasonably wealthy Catholic institution home to numerous programs which attract a strong pool of students who want to spend 4-5 years in Chicago for their undergrad work or 2-4 years conducting their graduate work. DePaul also has a wide array of online undergrad/grad options which gives the institution a global reach in the post-Covid world. I believe this will prove to be beneficial since it aligns with DePaul's commuter roots due to the school's unique split campus set-up. Granted, I would like to see DePaul increase the residential offerings at the Lincoln Park campus given how nice the neighborhood is (safe and secure!) combined with the bucolic nature of the campus itself. While having the Driehaus and Kellstadt Colleges of Business downtown offers some unique educational and personal experiences, I believe DePaul would benefit if it was at Lincoln Park. DePaul also operates on the quarter system which is unique in the world of higher education. From an undergrad perspective I don't find it to be beneficial in terms of a student's academic engagement as well as attracting students who are generally "conditioned" to the traditional semester model. Grad students like it because their programs move along a good clip which keeps classes fresh and engaging while they juggle other aspects of their personal and professional lives. Competing with nearby Loyola is not an easy task. As nice as DePaul is by urban standards, Loyola is one of the nicest campuses in the country. Plus, they hold the Jesuit clout relative to DePaul's Vincentian roots (St. John's and Niagara being the other Vincentian universities).
Then there's DePaul basketball. What a mess....
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 23, 2023 0:39:41 GMT -5
As someone who got their M.Ed. from DePaul, seeing the institution in a negative light is naturally both disconcerting and a bit saddening. With that said, generally speaking, DePaul is still a reasonably wealthy Catholic institution home to numerous programs which attract a strong pool of students who want to spend 4-5 years in Chicago for their undergrad work or 2-4 years conducting their graduate work. DePaul also has a wide array of online undergrad/grad options which gives the institution a global reach in the post-Covid world. I believe this will prove to be beneficial since it aligns with DePaul's commuter roots due to the school's unique split campus set-up. Granted, I would like to see DePaul increase the residential offerings at the Lincoln Park campus given how nice the neighborhood is (safe and secure!) combined with the bucolic nature of the campus itself. While having the Driehaus and Kellstadt Colleges of Business downtown offers some unique educational and personal experiences, I believe DePaul would benefit if it was at Lincoln Park. DePaul also operates on the quarter system which is unique in the world of higher education. From an undergrad perspective I don't find it to be beneficial in terms of a student's academic engagement as well as attracting students who are generally "conditioned" to the traditional semester model. Grad students like it because their programs move along a good clip which keeps classes fresh and engaging while they juggle other aspects of their personal and professional lives. Competing with nearby Loyola is not an easy task. As nice as DePaul is by urban standards, Loyola is one of the nicest campuses in the country. Plus, they hold the Jesuit clout relative to DePaul's Vincentian roots (St. John's and Niagara being the other Vincentian universities). Then there's DePaul basketball. What a mess.... "As someone who got their M.Ed..." So your pronouns are they/their?🙂 Only kidding around, thanks for the info. I wonder if the "Jesuit clout relative to DePaul's Vincent's roots" has any measurable effect? HC is Jesuit but that "clout" hasn't resulted in MBB games with BC or Georgtown recently.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Apr 23, 2023 11:32:40 GMT -5
As Forbes acknowledges, using a dataset that is based only on 2019-20, i.e., from either June/July 2019 to May/June 2020, introduces financial perturbations associated with the COVID pandemic and the closing of many campuses in the spring of 2020. Forbes financial scorecard for 2023 will also be affected by COVID-related effects, but to a lesser degree. The rankings that come out in 2024, which will be based on fiscal 2022, will represent a return to normal.
A poster made reference to HC's long term debt potentially being a factor. BC's long-term debt as of May 31, 2022 was $1.542 billion. (BC is graded A by Forbes.) HC's long-term debt on July 1, 2022 was $242 million. BC had 15,577 students in fiscal 2022, HC about 3,100. BC had a higher debt-per-student. Note, I did not go back to financial statements for fiscal 2020.
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Post by longsuffering on May 3, 2023 19:44:56 GMT -5
As Forbes acknowledges, using a dataset that is based only on 2019-20, i.e., from either June/July 2019 to May/June 2020, introduces financial perturbations associated with the COVID pandemic and the closing of many campuses in the spring of 2020. Forbes financial scorecard for 2023 will also be affected by COVID-related effects, but to a lesser degree. The rankings that come out in 2024, which will be based on fiscal 2022, will represent a return to normal. A poster made reference to HC's long term debt potentially being a factor. BC's long-term debt as of May 31, 2022 was $1.542 billion. (BC is graded A by Forbes.) HC's long-term debt on July 1, 2022 was $242 million. BC had 15,577 students in fiscal 2022, HC about 3,100. BC had a higher debt-per-student. Note, I did not go back to financial statements for fiscal 2020. Would you give BC credit for having a more diversified revenue stream? The three recent bank failures have all been banks with narrowly focused lines of business. The undergraduate only, liberal arts only approach is narrowly focused. Although some say "Put all your eggs in one basket and watch that basket like a hawk," it's not that comforting to lenders and rating agencies.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 4, 2023 6:53:01 GMT -5
As Forbes acknowledges, using a dataset that is based only on 2019-20, i.e., from either June/July 2019 to May/June 2020, introduces financial perturbations associated with the COVID pandemic and the closing of many campuses in the spring of 2020. Forbes financial scorecard for 2023 will also be affected by COVID-related effects, but to a lesser degree. The rankings that come out in 2024, which will be based on fiscal 2022, will represent a return to normal. A poster made reference to HC's long term debt potentially being a factor. BC's long-term debt as of May 31, 2022 was $1.542 billion. (BC is graded A by Forbes.) HC's long-term debt on July 1, 2022 was $242 million. BC had 15,577 students in fiscal 2022, HC about 3,100. BC had a higher debt-per-student. Note, I did not go back to financial statements for fiscal 2020. Would you give BC credit for having a more diversified revenue stream? The three recent bank failures have all been banks with narrowly focused lines of business. The undergraduate only, liberal arts only approach is narrowly focused. Although some say "Put all your eggs in one basket and watch that basket like a hawk," it's not that comforting to lenders and rating agencies. The short answer, and the long answer as well, is 'No'. BC's audited financial statement for the year used by Forbes (fiscal 2019-20) aggregates all its investments into three categories: equities, fixed income, and real assets. That's it. Holy Cross breaks out its investments into more categories than does BC, but for a very refined level of investment asset allocation, see these two tables from MIT's audited financial statement for fiscal 2020.
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Post by longsuffering on May 4, 2023 11:42:03 GMT -5
I wasn't thinking of the diversity in each school's (HC/BC) investment portfolio but rather the diversity of each school's income stream, which is mainly tuition. My thought is Holy Cross offers a more specialized product (undergraduate only, liberal arts only) to the marketplace than BC does and if HC's product wanes in value/appeal, it can't as easily balance that with other products that may be gaining in value/appeal, like say Nursing education.
I was wondering if you thought that specialization risk contributed to HC's lower rating than BC despite HC having less debt per student than BC?
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Post by sader1970 on May 4, 2023 13:06:15 GMT -5
As usual, I will showcase my ignorance but outside of Phreek, I can't recall anyone else using a debt per student standard. Not sure if this analogy works but if a family of 4 owes $1 million ($250K per family member) and another family of 8 owes the same $1 million ($125K per family member) which family is better/worse off? My gut tells me that it depends on many other factors than the number in the family or the number of students. In my analogy, yes the smaller family has a greater debt per family member but what if those 4 members are working Mom, Dad and 2 25-30 year olds working and the family of 8 is working Dad, Mom at home taking care of 6 kids under 16 years old and all going to school. and not gainfully employed? Outside of having more students to get tuition from, the debt per student doesn't seem to be a valuable standard. Then again, despite my ChFC, I was a history major so I'm likely missing the obvious.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 4, 2023 14:48:31 GMT -5
I wasn't thinking of the diversity in each school's (HC/BC) investment portfolio but rather the diversity of each school's income stream, which is mainly tuition. My thought is Holy Cross offers a more specialized product (undergraduate only, liberal arts only) to the marketplace than BC does and if HC's product wanes in value/appeal, it can't as easily balance that with other products that may be gaining in value/appeal, like say Nursing education. I was wondering if you thought that specialization risk contributed to HC's lower rating than BC despite HC having less debt per student than BC? There is no 'diversity' in the income stream. One might say there would be diversity between public and private institutions, as the former receives state aid. There would also be diversity if a school offered an on-line curriculum and on-line degree, but that's not the case of BC and HC. HC is ranked (#89) above BC when it comes to earnings after graduation. I don't believe Forbes uses this variable. www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/bachelors?search=Boston%20Colleg
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Post by longsuffering on May 4, 2023 14:56:55 GMT -5
I wasn't thinking of the diversity in each school's (HC/BC) investment portfolio but rather the diversity of each school's income stream, which is mainly tuition. My thought is Holy Cross offers a more specialized product (undergraduate only, liberal arts only) to the marketplace than BC does and if HC's product wanes in value/appeal, it can't as easily balance that with other products that may be gaining in value/appeal, like say Nursing education. I was wondering if you thought that specialization risk contributed to HC's lower rating than BC despite HC having less debt per student than BC? There is no 'diversity' in the income stream. One might say there would be diversity between public and private institutions, as the former receives state aid. There would also be diversity if a school offered an on-line curriculum and on-line degree, but that's not the case of BC and HC.  HC is ranked (#89) above BC when it comes to earnings after graduation. I don't believe Forbes uses this variable. www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/bachelors?search=Boston%20CollegI can see the four year two semester schedule leading to a $300,000 liberal arts degree losing favor. But it's holding up so far among HC's peer group of national liberal arts colleges.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 4, 2023 15:41:10 GMT -5
There is no 'diversity' in the income stream. One might say there would be diversity between public and private institutions, as the former receives state aid. There would also be diversity if a school offered an on-line curriculum and on-line degree, but that's not the case of BC and HC. HC is ranked (#89) above BC when it comes to earnings after graduation. I don't believe Forbes uses this variable. www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/bachelors?search=Boston%20CollegI can see the four year two semester schedule leading to a $300,000 liberal arts degree losing favor. But it's holding up so far among HC's peer group of national liberal arts colleges. Earlier I had posted in another thread a link to the Middle School curriculum at St. John's Prep in Danvers MA. Here is a link to the schools high school curriculum www.stjohnsprep.org/academics/high-school-program-of-study/mathematicsI can see major, major differences from when I went to school. High school courses have been pushed into middle school, and college level courses have been pushed into high school, particularly with the advent of AP courses. There seems to be much emphasis on critical thinking and concepts, and not solving 20 quadratic equations as the homework assignment. Repetition is not the mother of all learning. To the extent that a liberal arts college can emphasis critical thinking and analysis, it should survive. With the arrival of Chat GPT and the like, one needs more than ever a well-rounded rigorous education to be able to detect the hallucinations. .
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Post by princetoncrusader on May 4, 2023 20:06:56 GMT -5
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Post by bfoley82 on May 4, 2023 23:21:43 GMT -5
I wasn't thinking of the diversity in each school's (HC/BC) investment portfolio but rather the diversity of each school's income stream, which is mainly tuition. My thought is Holy Cross offers a more specialized product (undergraduate only, liberal arts only) to the marketplace than BC does and if HC's product wanes in value/appeal, it can't as easily balance that with other products that may be gaining in value/appeal, like say Nursing education. I was wondering if you thought that specialization risk contributed to HC's lower rating than BC despite HC having less debt per student than BC? There is no 'diversity' in the income stream. One might say there would be diversity between public and private institutions, as the former receives state aid. There would also be diversity if a school offered an on-line curriculum and on-line degree, but that's not the case of BC and HC. HC is ranked (#89) above BC when it comes to earnings after graduation. I don't believe Forbes uses this variable. www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/bachelors?search=Boston%20CollegBryant ranks 170 in that Salary Report and only 400 dollars less than Holy Cross in early earnings. The mid career pay (10+ years) is where the difference is but Bryant's rep has gotten much better in the last twenty years so the number might be a little low for Bulldogs grads.
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