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Post by hc1996 on Nov 22, 2023 14:24:09 GMT -5
IL friends refer to HC as near Ivy and have done so for decades. HC is highly respected in academia & the professional world. Obviously HC does not fit the secular, small-mid size university IL model. An MD acquaintance at an IL medical center in NYC stated HC was highly respected by those in the know. No doubt HC's high integrity non-professional student-athlete policy burnished its reputation. Add redshirts, increase roster size, "adjust" academics for athletes, drop IL, add state universities & local opponents & HC loses and becomes merely another small sports oriented Catholic college among many. Completely disagree. I don't believe our academic reputation is contingent upon a couple football opponents. This argument sounds a lot like it is influenced by Father Brooks' feeling that for HC to succeed athletically we would have to sacrifice our academic standards. Well, that experiment failed and thankfully we have athletic scholarships again. And from what I can see, HC is consistently one of the highest ranking schools nationally for athletes' performance in the classroom and graduation rates. Look at Peter Oliver and Jacob Dobbs. If we didn't have schollies, they would not have come to HC.
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wstruz71
Climbing Mt. St. James
Posts: 82
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Post by wstruz71 on Nov 22, 2023 14:35:15 GMT -5
I am a big fan of Holy Cross playing the Ivies, as there is a lot of tradition and clout, and it makes us look academically equivalent to these schools. Because Holy Cross has had some good seasons under Chesney, I sense some posters are now getting cocky. For this reason, they feel we should drop the Ivies and upgrade the schedule. Remember, our winning ways are not going to continue forever, as Holy Cross is not a football powerhouse like Notre Dame, Alabama, Ohio State, etc. In addition to the Ivies, I would like to see New Hampshire, Rhode Island, or Maine on the schedule each year. Finally, I am not a big fan of the FCS playoffs, as they lack clout and occur at. a bad time of the academic year. I think it is absurd to see Holy Cross flying to North or South Dakota or Montana during this time of year. This is more of a penance than a reward, particularly this year with all the injuries. Please let us know...when it comes to FCS football what clout do the Ivies have? Evidence points to the exact opposite. Also the line....makes us look academically equivalent....Holy Cross should be Holy Cross. I was referring to academic clout, not athletic clout. When Holy Cross plays an Ivy League opponent, I regard it as a status symbol.
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Post by timholycross on Nov 22, 2023 14:52:22 GMT -5
Please let us know...when it comes to FCS football what clout do the Ivies have? Evidence points to the exact opposite. Also the line....makes us look academically equivalent....Holy Cross should be Holy Cross. I was referring to academic clout, not athletic clout. When Holy Cross plays an Ivy League opponent, I regard it as a status symbol. If HC happened to play after October 7 at Harvard Stadium or the Yale Bowl and those protestors had shown up, would that have tarnished your status symbol a little bit? "The Company You Keep".
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Post by hcpride on Nov 22, 2023 14:57:32 GMT -5
Please let us know...when it comes to FCS football what clout do the Ivies have? Evidence points to the exact opposite. Also the line....makes us look academically equivalent....Holy Cross should be Holy Cross. I was referring to academic clout, not athletic clout. When Holy Cross plays an Ivy League opponent, I regard it as a status symbol. Given their weirdo reputation it helps them far more than it helps us at this point. Why would we want to be associated with a secular institution that has nothing in common with us? Plus, the Harvard -Yale football OOC group this year was this: Holy Cross Sacred Heart Morgan State St. Thomas Howard ‘The company you keep’ LOL
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Post by mm67 on Nov 22, 2023 15:04:38 GMT -5
IL friends refer to HC as near Ivy and have done so for decades. HC is highly respected in academia & the professional world. Obviously HC does not fit the secular, small-mid size university IL model. An MD acquaintance at an IL medical center in NYC stated HC was highly respected by those in the know. No doubt HC's high integrity non-professional student-athlete policy burnished its reputation. Add redshirts, increase roster size, "adjust" academics for athletes, drop IL, add state universities & local opponents & HC loses and becomes merely another small sports oriented Catholic college among many. Completely disagree. I don't believe our academic reputation is contingent upon a couple football opponents. This argument sounds a lot like it is influenced by Father Brooks' feeling that for HC to succeed athletically we would have to sacrifice our academic standards. Well, that experiment failed and thankfully we have athletic scholarships again. And from what I can see, HC is consistently one of the highest ranking schools nationally for athletes' performance in the classroom and graduation rates. Look at Peter Oliver and Jacob Dobbs. If we didn't have schollies, they would not have come to HC. Actually, we do not completely disagree but there certainly is disagreement.. Contingent is your word not mine. Best not to put your words in another's mouth. You would see that if you read my comment with more discernment. Actually, my argument stems from a time prior to the arrival of Fr. Brooks to the president's office. He merely helped focus and attempted a better placement for what had long been HC's priorities. Did you know Fr. Brooks? Did you ever have any one-on-one conversations with him? You certainly show little knowledge & limited understanding of him or his position. I suggest you try to be a bit more careful, less superficial in your analysis and statements about Brooks. Possibly a more athletically oriented athletics-first university such as UMass, Villanova or others would be more to your liking. Stay well.
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Post by hc1996 on Nov 22, 2023 15:15:00 GMT -5
Completely disagree. I don't believe our academic reputation is contingent upon a couple football opponents. This argument sounds a lot like it is influenced by Father Brooks' feeling that for HC to succeed athletically we would have to sacrifice our academic standards. Well, that experiment failed and thankfully we have athletic scholarships again. And from what I can see, HC is consistently one of the highest ranking schools nationally for athletes' performance in the classroom and graduation rates. Look at Peter Oliver and Jacob Dobbs. If we didn't have schollies, they would not have come to HC. Actually, we do not completely disagree but there certainly is disagreement.. Contingent is your word not mine. Best not to put your words in another's mouth. You would see that if you read my comment with more discernment. Actually, my argument stems from a time prior to the arrival of Fr. Brooks to the president's office. He merely helped focus and attempted a better placement for what had long been HC's priorities. Did you know Fr. Brooks? Did you ever have any one-on-one conversations with him? You certainly show little knowledge & limited understanding of him or his position. I suggest you try to be a bit more careful, less superficial in your analysis and statements about Brooks. Possibly a more athletically oriented athletics-first university such as UMass, Villanova or others would be more to your liking. Stay well. I can't say that I "knew" Father Brooks, but I did have two conversations with him on this topic while at HC. His position was clear, in order to remain competitive with our past rivals, HC would need to cut corners and sacrifice our academic reputation to do so. I disagreed with him then, and I am confident that he has been proven wrong. I apologize if I appear careless. I feel as though I care quite a bit! Adding to your list of athletically oriented athletics first universities, let's not forget BC, Notre Dame, Duke, Stanford....the list goes on.
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Post by nhteamer on Nov 22, 2023 15:15:07 GMT -5
He merely helped focus and attempted a better placement for what had long been HC's priorities. YOU MEAN CASTRATING ATHLETICS?
Did you know Fr. Brooks? YES I DID
Did you ever have any one-on-one conversations with him? YES I DID
You certainly show little knowledge & limited understanding of him or his position. MAYBE IT'S YOU THAT HAS A LIMITED UNDERSTANDING OF HIS POSITION
I suggest you try to be a bit more careful, less superficial in your analysis and statements about Brooks. I SUGGEST THAT YOU TRY TO BE A LITTLE LESS SANCTIMONIOUS. HERE'S SOMETHING LESS SUPERFICIAL AND DEEP: BROOKS WAS 100% WRONG ABOUT THE ROLE ATHLETICS HAVE IN PROMOTING AN INSTITUTION.
Possibly a more athletically oriented athletics-first university such as UMass, Villanova or others would be more to your liking. Stay well. IT HAS BEEN AWFUL FOR 'NOVA. MEMBERS OF MY CLASS AND I'LL BET MOST OF YOUR CLASSMATES DID NOT EVEN BOTHER TO APPLY THERE. NOW MANY HC STUDENTS WERE REJECTED BY VILLANOVA. YEAH, IT'S BEEN AWFUL.
THE TRUTH DOES HURT, DOESN'T IT?
Happy Thanksgiving
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 22, 2023 15:30:37 GMT -5
Only had a few conversations with Fr. Brooks but none on the subject of athletics and/or scholarships. But as I've posted in the past, while living in Ohio, I worked with 2 Yale grads. Both of them expressed great respect for Holy Cross often and other none ILers thought Holy Cross was an Ivy League school. I explained that we were not in that league. The misunderstanding seemed to be because they would see the national scores each weekend and see that we played Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, etc. So, in a sense, you are the company you keep.
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Post by hc87 on Nov 22, 2023 15:37:11 GMT -5
Just for the record, we can play 12 game schedules in back to back seasons every 5 years. Next year and in '25 and then again in '29 and '30.....2030, maybe flying cars by then. Our future FBS games bring some geographical diversity: Northern Illinois in 25 Miami (OH) in 26 San Jose St in 29. I think we can still add another FBS game in 25....I realize this might have hurt us for playoff consideration but put me in the "2 FBS games" a year camp if it's possible. I realize that is daunting for the team but we have a lot of snoozefest type games most years....the FBS games provide excitement to the schedule. Pretty sure it helps recruiting as well.
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Post by mm67 on Nov 22, 2023 15:48:39 GMT -5
Actually, we do not completely disagree but there certainly is disagreement.. Contingent is your word not mine. Best not to put your words in another's mouth. You would see that if you read my comment with more discernment. Actually, my argument stems from a time prior to the arrival of Fr. Brooks to the president's office. He merely helped focus and attempted a better placement for what had long been HC's priorities. Did you know Fr. Brooks? Did you ever have any one-on-one conversations with him? You certainly show little knowledge & limited understanding of him or his position. I suggest you try to be a bit more careful, less superficial in your analysis and statements about Brooks. Possibly a more athletically oriented athletics-first university such as UMass, Villanova or others would be more to your liking. Stay well. I can't say that I "knew" Father Brooks, but I did have two conversations with him on this topic while at HC. His position was clear, in order to remain competitive with our past rivals, HC would need to cut corners and sacrifice our academic reputation to do so. I disagreed with him then, and I am confident that he has been proven wrong. I apologize if I appear careless. I feel as though I care quite a bit! Adding to your list of athletically oriented athletics first universities, let's not forget BC, Notre Dame, Duke, Stanford....the list goes on. Certainly, all those are fine universities but they are not HC in terms of size, academic policy and tradition. A few years ago I was at a Stanford -U of Washington game in Seattle. In the game brochure Stanford forthrightly stated that the school had lower academic standards for its student-athletes, ( SAT of as low as 1000 for athletes, only.)The school explained it would not be possible for Stanford to compete at the PAC level with student-athletes at the same high academic level as the student body. An ND friend told me pretty much the same thing about ND. This lower standard applied to some if not all of their classes. These are two clean programs in which student-athletes do attend classes at their level & graduate. They are mid-size universities & can "hide" the relatively small number of lower functioning student-athletes w/out sacrificing their overall numbers. HC's policy since the early '50's has been that student athletes must be academically representative of the student body as a whole. I believe that is the case today. Also, the demands of a heavy academic workload at HC make it extremely unlikely for a student to compete at these higher levels. I admit I'm not entirely comfortable with HC footballers competing in the playoffs with all the physical stress & time involved. At one there was no spring practice at HC due to academic concerns. Time on the field equates with time away from studies. On and on... Please, no offense... Happy Thanksgiving
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Post by hcpride on Nov 22, 2023 16:07:01 GMT -5
Only had a few conversations with Fr. Brooks but none on the subject of athletics and/or scholarships. But as I've posted in the past, while living in Ohio, I worked with 2 Yale grads. Both of them expressed great respect for Holy Cross often and other none ILers thought Holy Cross was an Ivy League school. I explained that we were not in that league. The misunderstanding seemed to be because they would see the national scores each weekend and see that we played Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, etc. So, in a sense, you are the company you keep. To the extent it is relevant I know a Yalie quite well. She doesn't think Holy Cross is an Ivy League school nor would she care if it was. She thinks of it as a fine Catholic college.
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Post by hcpride on Nov 22, 2023 16:18:43 GMT -5
Just for the record, we can play 12 game schedules in back to back seasons every 5 years. Next year and in '25 and then again in '29 and '30.....2030, maybe flying cars by then. Our future FBS games bring some geographical diversity: Northern Illinois in 25 Miami (OH) in 26 San Jose St in 29. I think we can still add another FBS game in 25....I realize this might have hurt us for playoff consideration but put me in the "2 FBS games" a year camp if it's possible. I realize that is daunting for the team but we have a lot of snoozefest type games most years....the FBS games provide excitement to the schedule. Pretty sure it helps recruiting as well. Flying cars! Syracuse.com has no idea what they are missing I'd really like to see us limit FBS to 1 per year but appreciate the fact that our PL schedule has high snooze-potential. Beyond Fordham, it seems our PL football foes are becoming less-riveting (if possible) than ever. I think the answer is Merrimack and regional CAA instead of a second FBS. Although that may not be thrilling either.
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Post by timholycross on Nov 22, 2023 17:02:39 GMT -5
I was referring to academic clout, not athletic clout. When Holy Cross plays an Ivy League opponent, I regard it as a status symbol. Given their weirdo reputation it helps them far more than it helps us at this point. Why would we want to be associated with a secular institution that has nothing in common with us? What I was tryin to say!
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 22, 2023 17:19:13 GMT -5
Only had a few conversations with Fr. Brooks but none on the subject of athletics and/or scholarships. But as I've posted in the past, while living in Ohio, I worked with 2 Yale grads. Both of them expressed great respect for Holy Cross often and other none ILers thought Holy Cross was an Ivy League school. I explained that we were not in that league. The misunderstanding seemed to be because they would see the national scores each weekend and see that we played Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, etc. So, in a sense, you are the company you keep. To the extent it is relevant I know a Yalie quite well. She doesn't think Holy Cross is an Ivy League school nor would she care if it was. She thinks of it as a fine Catholic college. My Yalies didn’t think HC was an Ivy either. They also thought it was a highly respected Catholic college. Of course they knew the difference. The Ohio folks who have no IL schools near them were the ones that didn’t know. The only person I know who was an Ivy Leaguer and didn’t know is Tom Gilmore who had to be informed by a teammate that he was attending UPenn, an IL school and not Penn State.
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 22, 2023 17:27:21 GMT -5
When you factor in all the HC fans traveling to New Haven and Cambridge, I’d say our carbon footprint for those games is pretty big. Play WPI and save the planet! Fans won’t go and the team can walk. I took public transit to the Fordham game this year. Hope that helped! And I flew to Boston for the Harvard game in 2022 (took public transit to and from both airports for bonus points). Carpooled with my dad for our game 2 weekends ago but last couple times I went up to West Point for football I took the ferry round trip from Battery Park which was an awesome experience. Much longer trip for me given I can drive to West Point in 50 minutes from my house but super cool. When HC was the host for the NCAA regional at the Centrum with the memorable UVM games against Syracuse and Michigan State, my brother-in-law took public transportation from California to the games. He flew into Logan, took the T to South Station and the train to Worcester. He didn't give a hoot about the environment he just didn't want to rent a car or inconvenience anyone when his red eye flight arrived at dawn.
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 22, 2023 17:41:42 GMT -5
IL friends refer to HC as near Ivy and have done so for decades. HC is highly respected in academia & the professional world. Obviously HC does not fit the secular, small-mid size university IL model. An MD acquaintance at an IL medical center in NYC stated HC was highly respected by those in the know. No doubt HC's high integrity non-professional student-athlete policy burnished its reputation. Add redshirts, increase roster size, "adjust" academics for athletes, drop IL, add state universities & local opponents & HC loses and becomes merely another small sports oriented Catholic college among many. That is an interesting outlook. Holy Cross chose to leave the Catholic oriented MAAC for the Patriot, perhaps your same concept was discussed on Mahogany Row amongst TPTB. I have no clue if it was or wasn't.
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Post by mm67 on Nov 22, 2023 17:44:48 GMT -5
HC has always been & continues to be special. Why do some want the school to abandon some of the things which make HC special? HC is a rarity in DivI & unique among Div I Catholic colleges & universities. Why join the mass sports-first crowd and reject the special academics first PL and, yes, IL paradigm? All for a better brand of football? For crying' out loud HC is a college not a sports franchise. It does not exist to provide sports success to make a bunch of old guys & young ones too, feel good about its teams. HC the fine , elite, high academic college fills my heart with pride more than any transitory success on the field or court. Appreciate what we have.
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Post by efg72 on Nov 22, 2023 18:38:32 GMT -5
We all look at this through our individual lens and few opinions on the board that give each response the thoughtfulness and passion for Holy Cross you offer.
So I am trying to be as thoughtful and passionate in response, and sure I am missing the mark and pray it is not offensive as it is directed towards the IL institutions, but here I go
Well so much to digest and ways to respond
Our academic reputation is based on those we admit and how we perform. Our Athletic reputation is influenced and determined by the level of play, the SOS, and our ability to compete.
We compete in both areas with the talent the admissions process allows us.
Not to sound negative or disrespectful but the academic and athletic reputation while linked by the admissions process aren’t connected in the real world of academic standing. We could play an FBS, FCS, or a pedestrian D3 schedule and it would have no impact on our academic reputation, regionally, nationally, or globally.
While it is most appropriate to be the best we can be academically, athletically, and members of society the love affair with academic institutions influencing athletics is puzzling.
It is if we are telling the world we are really a fine institution, and we are so lucky to play the elite and real leaders in the world.
Book smart perhaps, but ridiculous to think they are more accomplished.
For those that believe we are inferior and must be attached at the hip to the Ivies, then how can you support four years at HC leads to success in the next forty.
We are special and I am proud not to be in the same class as the Ivies.
When I hear others I go back to one of the closing scenes of Braveheat and want to do what those brave Scots did on the side of a hill- turn my back on the Ivies and...
Never apologize for being special and equal to others, never be arrogant, and always be humble
We don't need them, and as institutions they should never be revered
When being interviewed a few years ago by McKinsey and BCG I asked which one went to Harvard and who went to MIT
They said why
I said to the one, you went to MIT because you think your smarter than everybody, and looking at the other individual I said that must mean you want to Harvard and you probably think you are superior to your fellow man
They asked how did I know- I proudly said I went to Holy Cross where you learn how to think, observe, and listen. We build trust, and respect others, and actually make decisions thatchange the world.
We are great and as a community we need to behave with that in mind
God Bless all of us, and no I am not arrogant enough to say I am right, but I do trust my HC education to feel confident I am close to right
Happy Thanksgiving one and all, and excited for NAD’s Christmas adventure this year.
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Post by td128 on Nov 22, 2023 19:16:18 GMT -5
Hear, hear to our esteemed Crusader colleague and leader efg. Well done, my friend. I shared very similar sentiments but in a more concise fashion with our 2023 Crusaders at the conclusion of our 90-Wide Career Night in early October.
I stated in a fairly passionate manner: “We take a back seat to f’#*!n nobody!”
The Crusaders appreciated the message and delivery and responded accordingly.
Let’s Win and never stop embracing and elevating our commitment to excellence in winning on and off the field.
Happy Thanksgiving one and all.
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Post by mm67 on Nov 22, 2023 19:35:24 GMT -5
We all agree HC is special. I do not understand the negativity towards IL institutions. Why? The IL is the standard for academic excellence by any group of tertiary institutions. And, FWIW these are the most prestigious schools as a group in the country. Sooooooo... HC is special in its own right. It does not bask in the glory of the IL. PL & IL schools have similar priorities & academics first policies. What's wrong with maintaining a decades long association with IL schools? Dartmouth was a good game, no? If to a certain extent one is known by the company one keeps, playing against H,Y, etc. can't hurt. I believe HC has played more football games against IL schools than any other non-IL school. What is wrong with that? What's the benefit to the school of replacing IL schools w/ whoever? Back to my point. Why the antagonism against the IL? Happy Thanksgiving. And, let us all celebrate td for 90 Wide,
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Post by HC92 on Nov 22, 2023 19:56:34 GMT -5
Villanova was a safety school for me and many of my HC classmates in 1988. The opposite is true for many students today and Villanova has a lower acceptance rate. If you go anywhere in the country, most people know the Villanova name. I regularly have people in the northeast ask me where and what HC is. Anywhere outside the northeast, there’s little chance people know HC unless they had a family member go there. Why do we think that is?
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Post by mm67 on Nov 22, 2023 20:24:58 GMT -5
Villanova has won two NCAA baseball championships in recent years. The school gets national exposure as a great basketball school. Duh! Good for Villanova.Thought HC's acceptance rate was around 20% & yield relatively decent in the 45% range. (The yield is a good indicator that HC is not artificially pumping up applications/denominator.) Obviously the denominator has a great impact on the rate. So, what? I don't understand the point of the post. There are many great national schools which are not widely known nor are athletic power houses and are considered superior to Villanova or HC for that matter. Try Bowdoin, Middlebury, Hamilton, Claremont McKenna & many others. Look it up. Wesleyan? Where is that? I have no brief against Villanova or any other school. For those who prefer Villanova, go there or encourage your kids to apply. Happy Thanksgiving.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 22, 2023 20:41:40 GMT -5
Villanova was a safety school for me and many of my HC classmates in 1988. The opposite is true for many students today and Villanova has a lower acceptance rate. If you go anywhere in the country, most people know the Villanova name. I regularly have people in the northeast ask me where and what HC is. Anywhere outside the northeast, there’s little chance people know HC unless they had a family member go there. Why do we think that is? It was a safety school (relative to HC) in 2006. As was Northeastern. Times have definitely changed.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Nov 22, 2023 20:54:06 GMT -5
Villanova has won two NCAA baseball championships in recent years. The school gets national exposure as a great basketball school. Duh! Good for Villanova.Thought HC's acceptance rate was around 20% & yield relatively decent in the 45% range. (The yield is a good indicator that HC is not artificially pumping up applications/denominator.) Obviously the denominator has a great impact on the rate. So, what? I don't understand the point of the post. There are many great national schools which are not widely known nor are athletic power houses and are considered superior to Villanova or HC for that matter. Try Bowdoin, Middlebury, Hamilton, Claremont McKenna & many others. Look it up. Wesleyan? Where is that? I have no brief against Villanova or any other school. For those who prefer Villanova, go there or encourage your kids to apply. Happy Thanksgiving. Swing and a miss.
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Post by mm67 on Nov 22, 2023 21:19:30 GMT -5
Villanova has won two NCAA baseball championships in recent years. The school gets national exposure as a great basketball school. Duh! Good for Villanova.Thought HC's acceptance rate was around 20% & yield relatively decent in the 45% range. (The yield is a good indicator that HC is not artificially pumping up applications/denominator.) Obviously the denominator has a great impact on the rate. So, what? I don't understand the point of the post. There are many great national schools which are not widely known nor are athletic power houses and are considered superior to Villanova or HC for that matter. Try Bowdoin, Middlebury, Hamilton, Claremont McKenna & many others. Look it up. Wesleyan? Where is that? I have no brief against Villanova or any other school. For those who prefer Villanova, go there or encourage your kids to apply. Happy Thanksgiving. Swing and a miss. Baiting? Nice try.
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