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Post by fillfittonfield on Nov 27, 2023 19:52:41 GMT -5
Not this nonsense again. If you don't want Georgetown, why not ask President Rougeau to have them expelled at the next PL executive meeting? Once the laughter dies down, they can get back to doing whatever PL presidents do. FF might mean that if all the other things happened, lot's of "ifs", then perhaps Georgetown might self elect to leave. The existing pl wouldn't push them out. I wish they'd adopt similar football commitments as the other schools. HCNJ: Spot on. I don't think the PL would push them out. I am more interested in if Georgetown wants to stay and play under new rules, or if they would elect to leave.
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Post by fillfittonfield on Nov 27, 2023 20:05:55 GMT -5
FF might mean that if all the other things happened, lot's of "ifs", then perhaps Georgetown might self elect to leave. The existing pl wouldn't push them out. I wish they'd adopt similar football commitments as the other schools. And the PL is never going to tell co-founder Bucknell to look for another conference. I agree...but if the PL adapts new rules, I hope it would send a message to Bucknell to follow it's peers and embrace the changes. Again, I want Bucknell and Georgetown to have strong football programs. It's good for HC and the PL. I don't want those schools being hamstrung by their Presidents and/or administrations.
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Post by cruskater31 on Nov 27, 2023 21:25:55 GMT -5
I'd vote for the Nova, Richmond, and W&M additions. Just not so sure the 3 would jump at the opportunity.
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Post by lehighowl on Nov 27, 2023 21:37:58 GMT -5
I'd vote for the Nova, Richmond, and W&M additions. Just not so sure the 3 would jump at the opportunity. Let W&M and Richmond go to the SoCon to strengthen that conference. Then the PL can go after 4 of these 5: Villanova, UNH, Maine, URI and Stony Brook (AAU). I think Villanova needs to be courted until they can't say no at this point. Time for the PL to at least make some modest concessions to both strengthen the league but also expand the league's reach to well respected public institutions. UNH and the PL flirted with each other about a decade ago.... I would love for the PL and SoCon to the be the premier East Coast FCS conferences. Both would share a great balance of academics and athletics.
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Post by midwestsader05 on Nov 27, 2023 21:46:37 GMT -5
I'd vote for the Nova, Richmond, and W&M additions. Just not so sure the 3 would jump at the opportunity. Let W&M and Richmond go to the SoCon to strengthen that conference. Then the PL can go after 4 of these 5: Villanova, UNH, Maine, URI and Stony Brook (AAU). I think Villanova needs to be courted until they can't say no at this point. Time for the PL to at least make some modest concessions to both strengthen the league but also expand the league's reach to well respected public institutions. UNH and the PL flirted with each other about a decade ago.... I would love for the PL and SoCon to the be the premier East Coast FCS conferences. Both would share a great balance of academics and athletics. I’d go Albany over Stony in a second. Albany is only a CAA FB affiliate. Easier get for PL Football only.
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Post by cruskater31 on Nov 27, 2023 21:49:05 GMT -5
I'd vote for the Nova, Richmond, and W&M additions. Just not so sure the 3 would jump at the opportunity. Let W&M and Richmond go to the SoCon to strengthen that conference. Then the PL can go after 4 of these 5: Villanova, UNH, Maine, URI and Stony Brook (AAU). I think Villanova needs to be courted until they can't say no at this point. Time for the PL to at least make some modest concessions to both strengthen the league but also expand the league's reach to well respected public institutions. UNH and the PL flirted with each other about a decade ago.... I would love for the PL and SoCon to the be the premier East Coast FCS conferences. Both would share a great balance of academics and athletics. I like adding northeast CAA teams and fits with NY's America East or the New Big East Model. Geographic fits and some academic concessions but feasible. Albany and UNH could work...but cue the academic peer institution folks to jump in and explain why all the CAA state institutions don't belong in the Patriot League
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 27, 2023 22:29:54 GMT -5
Let W&M and Richmond go to the SoCon to strengthen that conference. Then the PL can go after 4 of these 5: Villanova, UNH, Maine, URI and Stony Brook (AAU). I think Villanova needs to be courted until they can't say no at this point. Time for the PL to at least make some modest concessions to both strengthen the league but also expand the league's reach to well respected public institutions. UNH and the PL flirted with each other about a decade ago.... I would love for the PL and SoCon to the be the premier East Coast FCS conferences. Both would share a great balance of academics and athletics. I’d go Albany over Stony in a second. Albany is only a CAA FB affiliate. Easier get for PL Football only.Unless the CAA invites them for all sports to replace Delaware, which they might.
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 27, 2023 22:32:36 GMT -5
Let W&M and Richmond go to the SoCon to strengthen that conference. Then the PL can go after 4 of these 5: Villanova, UNH, Maine, URI and Stony Brook (AAU). I think Villanova needs to be courted until they can't say no at this point. Time for the PL to at least make some modest concessions to both strengthen the league but also expand the league's reach to well respected public institutions. UNH and the PL flirted with each other about a decade ago.... I would love for the PL and SoCon to the be the premier East Coast FCS conferences. Both would share a great balance of academics and athletics. I like adding northeast CAA teams and fits with NY's America East or the New Big East Model. Geographic fits and some academic concessions but feasible. Albany and UNH could work...but cue the academic peer institution folks to jump in and explain why all the CAA state institutions don't belong in the Patriot League You rang?🤣 FB only CAA State Universities are less of an issue than in the no/almost no scholarship sports. HC sponsors more sports with less students and student fees to finance them. Right now sports like tennis, golf, swimming play D-2,3 schools and get a good chunk of their wins from those ranks. 63 schollies vs 63 schollies in FB, HC has one advantage because each HC scholarship could be considered more valuable because HC tuition is tens of thousands more than State University tuitions. Doesn't have to be by all recruits/families of course. The disadvantage to me would be potentially more flexible admissions and graduate schools at the State Universities to get more recruits in and help retain fifth year players after they have earned their BA degree.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 27, 2023 22:51:07 GMT -5
NY...why do you find this league boring? Or are you just bored with this discussion (which is understandable). I know your preference is an American East football conference. I've seen you write about this previously. Your proposal is compelling, and I like it. However, I'd prefer keeping the PL core and adding Nova, W&M, and Richmond. I wouldn't say boring, certainly not in football. And the discussion HAS over the years gotten a little bit monotonous. W&M, Nova, Richmond, the proverbial dead horse. But that horse may as of today have some actual life outside of Crossports. THAT BEING SAID, today might be the first day in 25+ years, where if you're William & Mary, you start to consider the Patriot League as a real option. W&M has, since the mid-2000's considered Delaware its closest athletic peer across the board in the CAA. More so than longtime rival Richmond, who left the conference high and dry in 2001 to go to the A-10. Not JMU, who pretty clearly by 2010 or so was gearing up to go FBS at some point. Old Dominion was the school that W&M considered its biggest basketball rival for years (yes the rivalry was very one sided). I think Richmond would hitch its wagons in football to wherever W&M decided to go. And I'm fairly certain that if those two went, Villanova would follow. The idea of a trifecta of W&M, Richmond and Villanova joining the PL in football is absolutely appealing to me. However, I think the bigger problem is basketball. My expansion priority would be to bring in schools that would pump at least some semblance of basketball culture into the league. Villanova and Richmond aren't bringing basketball. W&M would, but you'd need to supplement that with others. Now that UD is off the board, here goes for my best-case Patriot League expansion: Football (10 teams)Holy Cross Fordham Colgate Bucknell Lehigh Lafayette VillanovaGeorgetown Richmond W&MAll-Sports / Basketball (14 teams)
Holy Cross Colgate Army NortheasternBoston U. Fairfield BinghamtonLehigh Lafayette Bucknell Loyola Navy American W&M
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not going to dive into the America East thoughts again tonight. But you have to wonder if UNH and Maine are looking at this Delaware move and possibly look to play a little defense. America East Football NOW makes too much sense. Plus, creating the football conference could help prevent the A-East from losing Bryant and/or Albany to the CAA in all sports. AND you have SHU and Merrimack there for the taking. Merrimack would dump the MAAC to be in an America East Conference with football IMO.
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Post by 78purple on Nov 27, 2023 23:25:41 GMT -5
Close, but how about a league like this.....
HC, Richmond W & M Furman Villanova Delaware Furman UNH UMass URI Army Navy
Great football league !!!
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Post by hc87 on Nov 28, 2023 0:40:15 GMT -5
Delaware is joining probably the #@*&$~!tiest league in the history of NCAA history.....congrats!
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Post by hcpride on Nov 28, 2023 5:32:55 GMT -5
Maybe this is a Hail Mary/bite-the-bullet FBS route for Delaware wherein they enter this obscure hodgepodge (to be kind) for a period of time in hopes of someday stepping into a re-vamped ACC.
Florida International Jacksonville State Liberty Louisiana Tech Middle Tennessee New Mexico State Sam Houston UTEP Western Kentucky Kenneshaw State Delaware
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 28, 2023 6:58:27 GMT -5
Close, but how about a league like this..... HC, Richmond W & M Furman Villanova Delaware Furman UNH UMass URI Army Navy Great football league !!! Great league in a lot of things! I was going off of what's realistic today given the current landscape in DI.
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Post by timholycross on Nov 28, 2023 7:46:08 GMT -5
Delaware would be 1st FCS school required to pay $5 million application fee to move up to FBS Delaware must have one, or more likely more, sugar daddies. And the same or other NIL people. 5 mill is just the tip of a large iceberg Ten percent for the big guy and another couple for the Blue Hens.
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Post by trimster on Nov 28, 2023 7:57:09 GMT -5
NY...why do you find this league boring? Or are you just bored with this discussion (which is understandable). I know your preference is an American East football conference. I've seen you write about this previously. Your proposal is compelling, and I like it. However, I'd prefer keeping the PL core and adding Nova, W&M, and Richmond. I wouldn't say boring, certainly not in football. And the discussion HAS over the years gotten a little bit monotonous. W&M, Nova, Richmond, the proverbial dead horse. But that horse may as of today have some actual life outside of Crossports. THAT BEING SAID, today might be the first day in 25+ years, where if you're William & Mary, you start to consider the Patriot League as a real option. W&M has, since the mid-2000's considered Delaware its closest athletic peer across the board in the CAA. More so than longtime rival Richmond, who left the conference high and dry in 2001 to go to the A-10. Not JMU, who pretty clearly by 2010 or so was gearing up to go FBS at some point. Old Dominion was the school that W&M considered its biggest basketball rival for years (yes the rivalry was very one sided). I think Richmond would hitch its wagons in football to wherever W&M decided to go. And I'm fairly certain that if those two went, Villanova would follow. The idea of a trifecta of W&M, Richmond and Villanova joining the PL in football is absolutely appealing to me. However, I think the bigger problem is basketball. My expansion priority would be to bring in schools that would pump at least some semblance of basketball culture into the league. Villanova and Richmond aren't bringing basketball. W&M would, but you'd need to supplement that with others. Now that UD is off the board, here goes for my best-case Patriot League expansion: Football (10 teams)Holy Cross Fordham Colgate Bucknell Lehigh Lafayette VillanovaGeorgetown Richmond W&MAll-Sports / Basketball (14 teams)
Holy Cross Colgate Army NortheasternBoston U. Fairfield BinghamtonLehigh Lafayette Bucknell Loyola Navy American W&M
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not going to dive into the America East thoughts again tonight. But you have to wonder if UNH and Maine are looking at this Delaware move and possibly look to play a little defense. America East Football NOW makes too much sense. Plus, creating the football conference could help prevent the A-East from losing Bryant and/or Albany to the CAA in all sports. AND you have SHU and Merrimack there for the taking. Merrimack would dump the MAAC to be in an America East Conference with football IMO. Not sold on Binghamton but other that, I really like your thinking.
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Post by timholycross on Nov 28, 2023 8:44:56 GMT -5
Close, but how about a league like this..... HC, Richmond W & M Furman Villanova Delaware Furman UNH UMass URI Army Navy Great football league !!! Great league in a lot of things! I was going off of what's realistic today given the current landscape in DI. Re: basketball. That league would have, believe it or not; most of the original (1939) programs, still D1; that never made the dance. Add Citadel and Denver to the league and you have them all.
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Post by ndgradbuthcfan on Nov 28, 2023 9:17:03 GMT -5
Close, but how about a league like this..... HC, Richmond W & M Furman Villanova Delaware Furman UNH UMass URI Army Navy Great football league !!! Unfair that Furman gets to enter two teams; must violate some rule, somewhere.
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 28, 2023 9:21:51 GMT -5
Realistically I'd take Villanova for FB. The teams from the old Confederate States of America are too far away. FCS football is regional to keep costs down
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Post by efg72 on Nov 28, 2023 9:27:47 GMT -5
Realignment, the portal, and the NIL what does the world of college football look like in three years Whatever our desired outcome is, we need to begin planning now to ensure we have some control over our destiny.
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Post by drjack on Nov 28, 2023 9:36:39 GMT -5
When the whole D1 restructuring occurs, I think there's a pretty good chance we end up in the lowest rung of D1 (or even D2 if the FCS gets squeezed out).
I don't see a world where the G5 teams aren't greedy and try and keep their new level as small as possible, like what the P4 schools are doing now.
I would hope we're being proactive here.
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Post by efg72 on Nov 28, 2023 10:29:56 GMT -5
Wendel: A brand-new conference for UMass athletics does not equal a brand-new future Football success comes with more resources, not conference membership Daily+Collegian+%282023%29 Shilpa Sweth Daily Collegian (2023) By Dean Wendel, Collegian Staff November 27, 2023 Over the past 24 hours, the University of Massachusetts side of X/Twitter has been lit ablaze with fierce debate regarding the future of the universities’ athletic department.
While threads and paragraphs surrounding possible conference realignment began Sunday night, debates were further flamed with Monday morning’s announcement that Delaware will be joining Conference-USA in all sports beginning in 2025-26. For many UMass fans, the C-USA along with the Mid-American Conference are the two most likely destinations for their school to consider if it opted to move away from its current situation.
That situation is what fans have known for eight years now: football as an FBS independent, and apart from a couple outliers, other sports in the Atlantic 10.
It’s a situation that isn’t perfect, but neither is the school. UMass does not meet the modern-day criteria that conferences look at when considering new members. The university is not near a major market and it has no recent success in the NCAA’s two main revenue sports (football and men’s basketball). With that in mind, some Minutemen fans have asked why a conference would even consider the school.
Well, it’s a turbulent time in college athletics, and conferences (some more than others) are looking for new footprints. In UMass, a conference can gain a flagship university with a large student body and an alumni base spread across not just the Northeast, but the world. The men’s basketball program hasn’t been at its strongest recently, but it will give a boost to the talent level in the C-USA/MAC. The football program can promise a stronger commitment to its new conference thanks to television deals and a burgeoning NIL collective.
The pros of moving conferences are there, but if I was the director of athletics, Ryan Bamford, I would hold strong and keep my athletic teams where they are right now.
Let’s focus on the program that should drive the school’s decision: UMass football. Despite plenty of talk to the contrary, I believe that there’s still a viable path to success as an FBS independent in football, even in 2023. Has UMass struggled as an independent? Yes, they’ve struggled mightily. However, joining a conference will not magically solve those on-field problems, nor will they give UMass anything more than a small bump in the program’s odds of success. To succeed in college football today, the number one thing a school needs to do is increase its resources. Nowadays, fans can directly contribute to those resources. I promise that donating to the Midnight Ride Collective or giving money to the Gridiron Club will help the program far more than a conference membership will.
Let’s look at the Liberty Flames as an example; the program moved up from FCS to FBS as an independent in 2018. The school spent $196 million on athletic facilities in the seven years preceding the move, including a $29.2 million indoor football facility. In its third year (all three of which were spent as an independent) Liberty went 10-1 and finished 17th in the AP Poll.
Past Liberty, the UConn Huskies made a bowl game in its second year as an independent, something they only did once during seven years in the American Athletic Conference.
Are these athletic departments comparable to the ones in Amherst? No, not at the moment. However, the point remains: there is no cap on success as an independent in NCAA football. If the resources and support are there, a program can rise through the FBS ranks just as it would if it had a conference to its name.
The supporters for conference realignment point to television deals as a reason for why the Minutemen should leave independence. It’s true that joining a conference will likely give a sizable bump to the football program’s revenue, but that money is not groundbreaking. C-USA schools make roughly $800,000 annually through their television deal. MAC schools make roughly $600,000 annually. UConn football, one of four FBS independents, makes $500,000 annually on their deal with CBS Sports.
Money will be spread throughout the entire athletic department and its impact on the football program doesn’t do nearly enough to guarantee success.
Supporters of realignment also argue that UMass football can play a more forgiving schedule, one that’s less reliant on buy games. That’s no sure thing either, as it all depends on an athletic department’s financial situation. Kent State, a MAC program, plays three buy games next season. C-USA’s Louisiana Tech plays two, the same amount that UMass played this season as an independent.
And then there’s the argument from a basketball perspective. It’s been noted by many, even those that think UMass should stay put, that the A-10 is nothing like it was a decade ago. A conference that got six NCAA tournament bids in 2014 is now trending towards two straight one-bid seasons. Am I saying that the A-10 is going to get back to its six-bid days? No, not at all. But I do think that the conference was due for a couple down seasons, and that its rebound is happening sooner rather than later.
In the A-10, you have a conference that broke an 18-year streak last season of sending multiple men’s teams to the NCAA tournament. That’s an impressive streak for a non-power six conference to boast. Even in today’s unstable environment of college athletics, A-10 athletic departments have largely made the right moves when it comes to coaching hires and overall commitments to their men’s basketball programs. I could eat my words here, but I truly believe that within two seasons, the A-10 will start sending multiple teams to the tournament yearly again.
Look at the Mountain West. Between 2015-16 and 2017-18, a regular multi-bid league got just four tournament bids in three years. It’s now sent four teams to March Madness each of the past two years. Conferences, non-power ones especially, ebb and flow, and the A-10 was long-past due for some regression.
With that being said, I know men’s basketball doesn’t drive realignment moves (unless you’re Gonzaga). It’s football that does. I see the benefits of UMass joining a conference. They finally get schedule stability, they get more television money and as of right now, they don’t get that big of a drop-off in competition when it comes to non-revenue sports, whether they’re in the C-USA or the MAC.
Again, if I was Bamford and I was forced to put UMass athletics in one of the two conferences, I would pick the C-USA. Despite there being more travel expenses, the C-USA’s been consistently better this season at both football and men’s basketball than the MAC. C-USA men’s basketball is still a one-bid league in March, but if you have the season of a lifetime, there’s at least a better chance of securing an at-large bid there than in the other conference.
However, none of the benefits to joining a conference I mentioned above will guarantee that the Minutemen’s athletic department will reach even slightly loftier goals. Continued investment in teams, through boosters and NIL investments, have the strongest correlation with success in the present day for FBS programs.
Even if they have a conference to its name, without significant financial commitments from both the athletic department and fans, UMass’ football team–and other athletic programs–will fail to reach new heights.
Dean Wendel can be reached at dwendel@umass.edu and followed on Twitter @deanwende1.
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 28, 2023 10:41:18 GMT -5
This column makes the PL look good. It gets one bid in March like CUSA and the MAC.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 28, 2023 12:24:58 GMT -5
Great league in a lot of things! I was going off of what's realistic today given the current landscape in DI. Re: basketball. That league would have, believe it or not; most of the original (1939) programs, still D1; that never made the dance. Add Citadel and Denver to the league and you have them all. And get St. Francis NY to re instate and invite them.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 28, 2023 12:29:50 GMT -5
I wouldn't say boring, certainly not in football. And the discussion HAS over the years gotten a little bit monotonous. W&M, Nova, Richmond, the proverbial dead horse. But that horse may as of today have some actual life outside of Crossports. THAT BEING SAID, today might be the first day in 25+ years, where if you're William & Mary, you start to consider the Patriot League as a real option. W&M has, since the mid-2000's considered Delaware its closest athletic peer across the board in the CAA. More so than longtime rival Richmond, who left the conference high and dry in 2001 to go to the A-10. Not JMU, who pretty clearly by 2010 or so was gearing up to go FBS at some point. Old Dominion was the school that W&M considered its biggest basketball rival for years (yes the rivalry was very one sided). I think Richmond would hitch its wagons in football to wherever W&M decided to go. And I'm fairly certain that if those two went, Villanova would follow. The idea of a trifecta of W&M, Richmond and Villanova joining the PL in football is absolutely appealing to me. However, I think the bigger problem is basketball. My expansion priority would be to bring in schools that would pump at least some semblance of basketball culture into the league. Villanova and Richmond aren't bringing basketball. W&M would, but you'd need to supplement that with others. Now that UD is off the board, here goes for my best-case Patriot League expansion: Football (10 teams)Holy Cross Fordham Colgate Bucknell Lehigh Lafayette VillanovaGeorgetown Richmond W&MAll-Sports / Basketball (14 teams)
Holy Cross Colgate Army NortheasternBoston U. Fairfield BinghamtonLehigh Lafayette Bucknell Loyola Navy American W&M
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not going to dive into the America East thoughts again tonight. But you have to wonder if UNH and Maine are looking at this Delaware move and possibly look to play a little defense. America East Football NOW makes too much sense. Plus, creating the football conference could help prevent the A-East from losing Bryant and/or Albany to the CAA in all sports. AND you have SHU and Merrimack there for the taking. Merrimack would dump the MAAC to be in an America East Conference with football IMO. Not sold on Binghamton but other that, I really like your thinking. Bighamton is a sleeping giant as far as being a solid basketball school. Despite being AWFUL for about 15 years, their average attendance would come close to selling out the Hart Center. And they might be the rare program that might BENEFIT from AI. That program has been scandal after scandal. Geography - Bighamton fits like a glove between Colgate, West Point and the Lehigh Valley. While its no metropolis, I like the idea of bringing in a school located in a small city, in contrast to the tiny towns like Hamilton and Lewisburg. Good academics, and if the CAA invites Albany for all sports, there's no reason for Bighamton to stick around in the America East with the other 2 SUNYs gone.
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Post by purplehaze on Nov 28, 2023 14:14:10 GMT -5
There's a post on the Colgate board about the Colgate and PL near future - it includes this 'Casey (Colgate president) is also the president of the Patriot League and wants to bring Villanova, William and Mary, and Richmond into the league. With Delaware going FBS, who knows? '
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