|
Post by purplehaze on Dec 15, 2023 12:18:06 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by hc87 on Dec 15, 2023 18:54:34 GMT -5
It would be nice to have other winning programs....but football and men's hoops are really the only 2 sports that really push the needle....it is what it is....
|
|
|
Post by rgs318 on Dec 15, 2023 19:32:01 GMT -5
Did you mean today men's hoops is a winning program, or did you mean women's hoops?
|
|
|
Post by longsuffering on Dec 16, 2023 0:30:29 GMT -5
I certainly care. I mainly relate to FB, BB and baseball, sports that I played and understand, but the performance of the other 20+ teams is outrageous. Although we get no credit in the President's Cup for hockey, I see a positive in the hiring of Dan Curran as the new FB coach. I was concerned that Kit would empty the coffers to get a highly compensated FBS coordinator which would require HC stretching for the salary. That might have restricted our ability to extend and retain Coach Riga. Any coach who can win at Holy Cross or even progress in the league tournament is extremely valuable. Men's hockey and women's BB are contenders for league championships and FB was co-champion this year. Now it's time to find coaches who can build winning programs in other sports.
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Dec 16, 2023 10:55:35 GMT -5
As noted many times, we are a participatory athletic program in all but three PL sports. And FB, WBB, MBB (our competitive PL sports) have their ups and downs. What we see in the President's Cup standings is a reflection of our current athletic program and priorities. It would be folly to expect differently.
We could ditch (non-PL) M-W hockey and put the resources into converting one or more of our PL participatory sports into PL competitive sports. And move up in the President's Cup standings.
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Dec 16, 2023 11:40:25 GMT -5
We could, but we won't. Hockey oftentimes sees more students in the stands than basketball, which shows interest.
As I've often posted, the audience for Holy Cross athletics can and should be, in priority order:
1. Students 2. Parents and families of students (with higher priority for the players' parents) 3. Alums 4. Faculty/Staff (those who were behind the Crusade ditching drop to the bottom) 5. Local Worcestorites (NAD excepted, he goes to the head of the class, NDgrad is right behind him) 6. All others with an interest (including extended family member of students and alums)
JMO
We cannot possibly be best or even good in every sport without having a reputation as a "jock school." We want to find that sweet spot where we are champs or in frequent contention in most sports. While not being first in the President's Cup, we shouldn't be dead last either.
|
|
|
Post by rgs318 on Dec 16, 2023 11:49:56 GMT -5
I do like that last point. When years ago I questioned why HC was so low (typically last) in the President's Cup standings, I was told by some posters that to even ask that showed how little I understood about HC. They informed me in no uncertain terms that "no one cared about that stupid cup." Prehaps with some interest here, times are now changing. IMHO when we send out teams to represent HC in Olympic Sports without giving them what they need to have a fighting chance against other "Division 1" schools we are doing them a HUGE disservice. Participation awards do little or nothing for me. It may be time to bring back the bumper sticker from the 1960s that read: "I AM A HOLY CROSS ATHLETIC SUPPORTER"
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Dec 16, 2023 12:09:52 GMT -5
I remember those but you must remember we are now celebrating 50 years of co-education at Holy Cross and those bumper stickers might be construed as, well, you know.
|
|
|
Post by rgs318 on Dec 16, 2023 12:51:35 GMT -5
I do indeed, but I prefer to understand words as what they actually say, not what some other person could say they "might" mean to them.
|
|
|
Post by longsuffering on Dec 16, 2023 19:23:43 GMT -5
As noted many times, we are a participatory athletic program in all but three PL sports. And FB, WBB, MBB (our competitive PL sports) have their ups and downs. What we see in the President's Cup standings is a reflection of our current athletic program and priorities. It would be folly to expect differently. We could ditch (non-PL) M-W hockey and put the resources into converting one or more of our PL participatory sports into PL competitive sports. And move up in the President's Cup standings. Your proposal makes financial sense. Here's a few other factors: men's hockey came out of nowhere to make the final in the eleven team AHA last season and we appear to have a rare breed under contract: a coach who can win at HC. No HC fall sport even qualified for any league or national post season tournament. Both M&W hockey have fewer teams to compete against in D-1 than most sports making an unlikely run in the NCAA tournament slightly less unlikely. Women's hockey plays in the closest thing to a power conference of any HC team. Foley will probably knock that point down. We have the arena on campus and fully paid for. Canceling two varsity sports generates far more negative publicity than finishing last in the President's Cup. Other than those factors, dropping two full scholarship hockey teams makes financial sense but is highly unlikely to happen and if it did the sports would fairly likely be revived after the uproar, returning in damaged condition.
|
|
|
Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 17, 2023 14:06:22 GMT -5
As noted many times, we are a participatory athletic program in all but three PL sports. And FB, WBB, MBB (our competitive PL sports) have their ups and downs. What we see in the President's Cup standings is a reflection of our current athletic program and priorities. It would be folly to expect differently. We could ditch (non-PL) M-W hockey and put the resources into converting one or more of our PL participatory sports into PL competitive sports. And move up in the President's Cup standings. Are you advocating for this or just mentioning it as a hypothetical? Cutting 2 of our marquee sports teams to put resources into volleyball and swimming so we can move up in the President's Cup standings that nobody cares about would be total lunacy. Food for thought: Stanford wins the national equivalent of the Presidents Cup almost every year. And they almost got left out of the latest power conference realignment shuffle. Basically had to barely squeeze their way into the ACC.
|
|
|
Post by longsuffering on Dec 17, 2023 19:46:43 GMT -5
As noted many times, we are a participatory athletic program in all but three PL sports. And FB, WBB, MBB (our competitive PL sports) have their ups and downs. What we see in the President's Cup standings is a reflection of our current athletic program and priorities. It would be folly to expect differently. We could ditch (non-PL) M-W hockey and put the resources into converting one or more of our PL participatory sports into PL competitive sports. And move up in the President's Cup standings. Are you advocating for this or just mentioning it as a hypothetical? Cutting 2 of our marquee sports teams to put resources into volleyball and swimming so we can move up in the President's Cup standings that nobody cares about would be total lunacy. Food for thought: Stanford wins the national equivalent of the Presidents Cup almost every year. And they almost got left out of the latest power conference realignment shuffle. Basically had to barely squeeze their way into the ACC. Stanford on moving from the Pacific-12 to the Atlantic Coast Conference, "You've seen one ocean you've seen them all." HC's three conferences, the PL, AHA, HE all have geographic integrity which puts us ahead of the Cardinal in that category. They nose us out in the mascot category but not by much. We have none, they have a tree.
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Dec 17, 2023 21:41:00 GMT -5
As noted many times, we are a participatory athletic program in all but three PL sports. And FB, WBB, MBB (our competitive PL sports) have their ups and downs. What we see in the President's Cup standings is a reflection of our current athletic program and priorities. It would be folly to expect differently. We could ditch (non-PL) M-W hockey and put the resources into converting one or more of our PL participatory sports into PL competitive sports. And move up in the President's Cup standings. Are you advocating for this or just mentioning it as a hypothetical? Cutting 2 of our marquee sports teams to put resources into volleyball and swimming so we can move up in the President's Cup standings that nobody cares about would be total lunacy. Food for thought: Stanford wins the national equivalent of the Presidents Cup almost every year. And they almost got left out of the latest power conference realignment shuffle. Basically had to barely squeeze their way into the ACC. My comment was relative to the OP's lament concerning our poor showing in the PL's President's Cup standings. Worse than usual apparently. I'm thinking we are not going to increase our overall Athletic Budget. I was merely pointing out that if we dissolved non-PL M/W Hockey we could shift those funds to our participatory PL sports and move up the PL President's Cup standings. Not sure why you picked volleyball and swimming. I was thinking baseball and M/W lacrosse. And yes, this was just a hypothetical as I am far more concerned about the TurnpikeTrophy than the PL Presidents Cup. And I have no idea what the Turnpike Trophy is.
|
|
|
Post by bfoley82 on Dec 17, 2023 23:33:09 GMT -5
Are you advocating for this or just mentioning it as a hypothetical? Cutting 2 of our marquee sports teams to put resources into volleyball and swimming so we can move up in the President's Cup standings that nobody cares about would be total lunacy. Food for thought: Stanford wins the national equivalent of the Presidents Cup almost every year. And they almost got left out of the latest power conference realignment shuffle. Basically had to barely squeeze their way into the ACC. Stanford on moving from the Pacific-12 to the Atlantic Coast Conference, "You've seen one ocean you've seen them all." HC's three conferences, the PL, AHA, HE all have geographic integrity which puts us ahead of the Cardinal in that category. They nose us out in the mascot category but not by much. We have none, they have a tree. Don't know many people that would consider Colorado Springs and Erie, PA as Atlantic Hockey towns.
|
|
|
Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 18, 2023 6:53:30 GMT -5
Are you advocating for this or just mentioning it as a hypothetical? Cutting 2 of our marquee sports teams to put resources into volleyball and swimming so we can move up in the President's Cup standings that nobody cares about would be total lunacy. Food for thought: Stanford wins the national equivalent of the Presidents Cup almost every year. And they almost got left out of the latest power conference realignment shuffle. Basically had to barely squeeze their way into the ACC. My comment was relative to the OP's lament concerning our poor showing in the PL's President's Cup standings. Worse than usual apparently. I'm thinking we are not going to increase our overall Athletic Budget. I was merely pointing out that if we dissolved non-PL M/W Hockey we could shift those funds to our participatory PL sports and move up the PL President's Cup standings. Not sure why you picked volleyball and swimming. I was thinking baseball and M/W lacrosse. And yes, this was just a hypothetical as I am far more concerned about the Turnpike Trophy than the PL Presidents Cup. And I have no idea what the Turnpike Trophy is. Don't think the Turnpike Trophy is leaving the BU trophy case anytime soon. Another thing I lose zero sleep over. BU doesn't have baseball or football and we rarely get to play them in Men's Hockey. You bring up baseball and lax. A lot on this board would no better than me, but how does our funding compare to the rest of the PL in these two sports? Are we the equivalent of Georgetown in the football conference? For sure I'd love to see improvements in these two sports....not at the expense of dropping hockey though.
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Dec 18, 2023 8:09:39 GMT -5
The Turnpike Trophy, while probably well-intentioned and an effort to create a rivalry with our closest Patriot League neighbor, was and will always be seriously flawed. About the only thing we have in common with BU is being based in Massachusetts.
They are a large secular university and we are small liberal arts Jesuit college. We might as well create a "Crusader-Eagle Trophy". At least they are Jesuit. As noted above, there are numerous sports that we play and BU doesn't and, without looking it up, they possibly play sports we don't.
In the sports we have in common and in the same league, are mostly Olympic sports, in which they have a huge advantage both in students and in dollars.
This is a most one-sided concept, to Holy Cross' detriment, of almost anything I could think of and I would strongly support ending the "competition" and giving the trophy permanently to BU with a good-sportsmanship farewell, "thanks."
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Dec 18, 2023 8:12:47 GMT -5
My comment was relative to the OP's lament concerning our poor showing in the PL's President's Cup standings. Worse than usual apparently. I'm thinking we are not going to increase our overall Athletic Budget. I was merely pointing out that if we dissolved non-PL M/W Hockey we could shift those funds to our participatory PL sports and move up the PL President's Cup standings. Not sure why you picked volleyball and swimming. I was thinking baseball and M/W lacrosse. And yes, this was just a hypothetical as I am far more concerned about the Turnpike Trophy than the PL Presidents Cup. And I have no idea what the Turnpike Trophy is. Don't think the Turnpike Trophy is leaving the BU trophy case anytime soon. Another thing I lose zero sleep over. BU doesn't have baseball or football and we rarely get to play them in Men's Hockey. You bring up baseball and lax. A lot on this board would no better than me, but how does our funding compare to the rest of the PL in these two sports? Are we the equivalent of Georgetown in the football conference? For sure I'd love to see improvements in these two sports....not at the expense of dropping hockey though. Georgetown aside, no question a few full schollie equivalents tossed at baseball and m/w lax would very likely boost recruiting and competitiveness. (I’m aware m/w lax already has some athletic schollie money.) If that is a goal. (At the same time it is obvious one can have a full complement of schollies and field a losing team for many years. Men’s hoops.)
|
|
|
Post by alum on Dec 18, 2023 8:38:56 GMT -5
We know that hockey and basketball have matching numbers of men's and women's scholarships, so how are the 63 scholarships which match the football ones distributed? I know it isn't track and field because the men and women have one each. Why don't we start by figuring out which HC women's teams are relatively well supported by scholarships and figure out why they aren't doing better.
|
|
|
Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 18, 2023 9:26:56 GMT -5
It would be nice to have other winning programs....but football and men's hoops are really the only 2 sports that really push the needle....it is what it is.... In a similar camp. I want all of our teams to win championships each year, but do I value men's and women's tennis the same as men's basketball? No. I don't really care where we finish in the P-Cup standings so long as we are raising banners in football, men's basketball, and to a lesser degree baseball. Men's hockey doesn't get factored into the P-Cup, but they're a tick below football and men's basketball and ahead of baseball. I'm just not going to get worked up if cross country and volleyball are below our peer schools.
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on Dec 18, 2023 9:51:31 GMT -5
I come from a Class that included Art Dulong and Art Martin. About 2-5 years before I went to Holy Cross, the Holy Cross track team scored what might have been one of the all time greatest comebacks of all time in the Millrose Games - a big thing in those days.
From memory, the relay team ran on a Saturday as it was either not on live TV or my father ('42) didn't know it but read in the Sunday NY Times about the great comeback and it was going to be replayed on Sunday.
So, we watched it and not sure if the baton was dropped or just a very slow first leg (bear with me, it was probably 60 years ago).
What stands out in my memory was that while my father, brother (ex-'68. '69) and I watched, we were absolutely sure that the Times had it wrong as the Crusader anchor leg wasn't even in the same picture with the leaders. Out of nowhere, he pulled it off and the place went bananas.
I don't usually get excited about track meets, with the exception of relays, but this was fantastic and it's a shame that Holy Cross, which historically had a top reputation in the sport, isn't doing better.
|
|
|
Post by purplehaze on Dec 18, 2023 10:13:56 GMT -5
Getting back to my original thought: why are we so far behind Lehigh / Lafayette/ Colgate / Bucknell (who have the same general restrictions due to football) in V’ball, Soccer, FH, Swimming, T&F, Lax, Tennis, Golf etc.. ?
|
|
|
Post by longsuffering on Dec 21, 2023 1:15:50 GMT -5
Getting back to my original thought: why are we so far behind Lehigh / Lafayette/ Colgate / Bucknell (who have the same general restrictions due to football) in V’ball, Soccer, FH, Swimming, T&F, Lax, Tennis, Golf etc.. ? In Pak's past analysis we generally spent less on non-scholarship sports while Central Mass. may have higher cost of living than any of our peer core league members.
|
|
|
Post by purplehaze on Dec 21, 2023 9:35:19 GMT -5
Sorry, I don’t buy that explanation
|
|
|
Post by longsuffering on Dec 21, 2023 11:34:49 GMT -5
Sorry, I don’t buy that explanation Make some dollars and sense out of how budget size does not effect performance for us please. Lower paid coaches work harder? Recruiting closer to home is always better? Actually they both could be true but usually not.
|
|
|
Post by purplehaze on Dec 21, 2023 12:20:01 GMT -5
Not keen to get into a back and forth on this subject at Holiday time - my opinion is that HC intentionally leaves many programs to fend for themselves and don't give the coaches and players a chance to succeed. That's not what HC is all about and when they solicit our $ in Feb on Athletics Giving Day they will say we 'strive for success' - sorry, but they're not being honest.
|
|