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Post by sarasota on Jan 15, 2017 23:44:41 GMT -5
purple- I do not support the (total) secularization of HC. However, I would like to see a lot more balance between the two views, serious efforts to expose students to the other side of things. We could say Exposition vs. Indoctrination. One does not expect a seminary to be dedicated to Exposition. Likewise, one does not expect an institution of high learning to be dedicated to Indoctrination. Correct?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 16, 2017 0:04:13 GMT -5
Holy Cross is a Catholic college and should do its utmost to promote the faith.
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Post by sarasota on Jan 16, 2017 7:06:38 GMT -5
KY- How much should it do to promote Rationalism, Empiricism, Free Thinking, etc?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jan 16, 2017 7:08:41 GMT -5
I will note that William Blatty, GU '50, died on Friday, 1/13/2017. Author of "The Exorcist", in his later years Blatty became a tormentor of Georgetown (and the Jesuits), complaining to the Holy See that the school was not sufficiently Catholic.. As for the history behind the book / movie, below is a link to a photo stream published in the Washington Post.that references the original exorcism in St. Louis, conducted by eight Jesuits. www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/william-peter-blatty-author-of-the-exorcist-dies-at-89/2017/01/13/729974bc-d9a1-11e6-9a36-1d296534b31e_story.html?utm_term=.0e4d5c9712aaBlatty v. Georgetown. www.washingtonpost.com/local/vatican-responds-to-georgetown-petition-by-exorcist-author-blatty/2014/05/13/22f780de-daa3-11e3-bda1-9b46b2066796_story.html?utm_term=.98cf09f64f1bAs a complete tangent, a retrospective assessment of the 'exorcism'. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorcism_of_Roland_DoeThe movie is still one of the scariest movies ever., The Exorcist steps are still there in Georgetown, and somewhat protected as a historic celluloid landmark.
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Post by hchoops on Jan 16, 2017 8:29:11 GMT -5
Blatty also attended a Jesuit high school, Brooklyn Prep, (unfortunately also deceased) which sent many of its students to HC, including Joe Califano, yours truly, and at least one other regular poster.
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 16, 2017 9:01:23 GMT -5
My father (HC '42) and uncle (HC '43) were also grads of Brooklyn Prep ("the prep," like it was the only one! ). I say that because my son, Fairfield '00, had/has many Stag friends from Philly who went to St. Joseph's Prep and they also refer to it as "the Prep." I on the other hand, as I think I told hoops before, had the very "religious" Franciscans (note sarcasm) at St. Anthony's, at the time located in San Remo section of Smithtown, L.I. and now re-located, co-ed and an athletic juggernaut. No, not that St. Anthony's in NJ. We never had the opportunity to say we went to a "prep." I guess Catholic prep schools are a Jesuit thing (see Fordham Prep, Fairfield Prep, etc.).
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 16, 2017 9:31:50 GMT -5
For anyone confused about what HC should be doing, here is The College's Mission Statement:
"The College of the Holy Cross is, by tradition and choice, a Jesuit liberal arts college serving the Catholic community, American society, and the wider world. To participate in the life of Holy Cross is to accept an invitation to join in dialogue about basic human questions: What is the moral character of learning and teaching? How do we find meaning in life and history? What are our obligations to one another? What is our special responsibility to the world's poor and powerless? As a liberal arts college, Holy Cross pursues excellence in teaching, learning, and research. All who share its life are challenged to be open to new ideas, to be patient with ambiguity and uncertainty, to combine a passion for truth with respect for the views of others. Informed by the presence of diverse interpretations of the human experience, Holy Cross seeks to build a community marked by freedom, mutual respect, and civility. Because the search for meaning and value is at the heart of the intellectual life, critical examination of fundamental religious and philosophical questions is integral to liberal arts education. Dialogue about these questions among people from diverse academic disciplines and religious traditions requires everyone to acknowledge and respect differences. Dialogue also requires us to remain open to that sense of the whole which calls us to transcend ourselves and challenges us to seek that which might constitute our common humanity. The faculty and staff of Holy Cross, now primarily lay and religiously and culturally diverse, also affirm the mission of Holy Cross as a Jesuit college. As such, Holy Cross seeks to exemplify the longstanding dedication of the Society of Jesus to the intellectual life and its commitment to the service of faith and promotion of justice. The College is dedicated to forming a community which supports the intellectual growth of all its members while offering them opportunities for spiritual and moral development. In a special way, the College must enable all who choose to do so to encounter the intellectual heritage of Catholicism, to form an active worshipping community, and to become engaged in the life and work of the contemporary church. Since 1843, Holy Cross has sought to educate students who, as leaders in business, professional, and civic life, would live by the highest intellectual and ethical standards. In service of this ideal, Holy Cross endeavors to create an environment in which integrated learning is a shared responsibility, pursued in classroom and laboratory, studio and theater, residence and chapel. Shared responsibility for the life and governance of the College should lead all its members to make the best of their own talents, to work together, to be sensitive to one another, to serve others, and to seek justice within and beyond the Holy Cross community."
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Post by CHC8485 on Jan 16, 2017 14:18:10 GMT -5
Blatty also attended a Jesuit high school, Brooklyn Prep, (unfortunately also deceased) which sent many of its students to HC, including Joe Califano, yours truly, and at least one other regular poster. My dad, HC '50, also attended Brooklyn Prep and was a classmate of Blatty. I'm sure he had a story or two about Blatty, but none that I recall any right now. I believe he said 17 of his high school classmates were also classmates at HC.
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Post by sarasota on Jan 16, 2017 15:59:07 GMT -5
HC Mission Statement: "the intellectual heritage of Catholicism." Notus Bene: Galileo, The Inquisitions in many countries including the executions of at least 1,350 heretics in the Spanish Inquisition alone and the burning of 1,175 heretics in the Portuguese Inquisition, the forced use of Latin over vernacular language during the Middle Ages, the burning at the stake of Giordano Bruno, placing Descartes, Kepler, Kant and Newton on the Index along with 4,000 other books, the blacklisting of Luther, Calvin and Melancthon, etc., etc. During my Freshman year at HC (1959), our Philosophy professor applied to the Bishop of Worcester to gain his permission for us to read Descartes! The intellectual heritage of Catholicism? What a joke.
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purple71
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 169
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Post by purple71 on Jan 16, 2017 20:17:46 GMT -5
It appears that the mission statement of the College pretty well sets forth what it was, is and, hopefully, ever shall be (words sound familiar?). To those who would change the nature of the college away from its stated mission, I can not wish you well in that endeavor. Most of the reputation of Alma Mater was made on the backs of the Jesuits and I don't feel we should ask them to tone down their mission. Frankly, they have had too much skin in the game for too many years. I prefer to thank rather than criticize their efforts in creating an institution of higher learning which recognizes the ultimate truth in life. If you don't accept that truth, fine, but please don't condescend to those who do.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Jan 16, 2017 21:25:15 GMT -5
purple- I do not support the (total) secularization of HC. However, I would like to see a lot more balance between the two views, serious efforts to expose students to the other side of things. We could say Exposition vs. Indoctrination. One does not expect a seminary to be dedicated to Exposition. Likewise, one does not expect an institution of high learning to be dedicated to Indoctrination. Correct? You have absolutely no clue what is going on in the classrooms at Holy Cross on any given day. You came up with this Wiki little evaluation that the college is a seminary a few years ago and have been riding that pony all the way to the glue factory.
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Post by sarasota on Jan 16, 2017 22:36:50 GMT -5
I note that no poster yet has directly addressed the substance of my prior post. Are you ashamed of "the intellectual heritage of Catholicism?" Not even a teeny tiny bit? Denial can bring great comfort. Facing up to one's heritage can take courage. Do you really think I am the only one among HC's thousands of alums who think as I do? I just happen to be the only one who voices it on this Forum.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 16, 2017 23:42:53 GMT -5
Stop the nonsense. No one wants to play this ludicrous game with you.
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Post by sarasota on Jan 17, 2017 0:52:48 GMT -5
75- Thanks for your substantive response. Not up to it, eh?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jan 17, 2017 7:32:30 GMT -5
'Tradition' is not a period fixed and bounded in time. Let me selectively define the period of 'tradition' and I can make anyone look ridiculous when viewed through a contemporary prism. .
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 17, 2017 7:40:00 GMT -5
75- Thanks for your substantive response. Not up to it, eh? No, looks like you missed the point: your game has become very tiresome. No one wants to play it any more.
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Post by sarasota on Jan 17, 2017 12:05:59 GMT -5
KY- OK. I've made my point.
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Post by Tom on Jan 17, 2017 15:35:12 GMT -5
Any Nobel Prize winner in a science field would require lab facilities beyond the capacity of HC as well as expectations of PhD students and post-docs to fill those labs. So you are left with literature and economics, perhaps the peace prize (though some of those are not academics). How many Nobel prize winners would be willing to move to a new campus (since the award is usually later in life) and teach exclusively undergrads? You are probably correct that there is some level of money that would work but probably not worth that investment, I don't think celebrity academics would really help HC in the long run. I question how much teaching the Nobel winner would do. Not quite the Nobel level, but I know someone who took a class with Isaac Asimov at BU. The story I heard was that he saw Asimov once and the rest of the semester was taught by grad students
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jan 17, 2017 17:08:51 GMT -5
What 'sota is looking for is something akin to MIT's Intro Biology course, which is taught by Eric Lander and Robert Weinberg. Its a freshman course. ocw.mit.edu/courses/biology/7-01sc-fundamentals-of-biology-fall-2011/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Landeren.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_WeinbergLander's first or second lecture to begin the course covers Mendel, --in fact the lecture is all about Mendel, as Lander holds him in the highest regard. And I suppose when you cherrypick what's included within your definition of 'tradition', Mendel represents an 'inconvenient truth', so someone like Mendel is pushed to the side, out of view/ And then there's Copernicus, an ordained priest,.....................
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Post by sarasota on Jan 17, 2017 23:29:37 GMT -5
PP- No amount of good can cleanse away the bad.
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Post by beaven302 on Jan 18, 2017 13:03:52 GMT -5
Any Nobel Prize winner in a science field would require lab facilities beyond the capacity of HC as well as expectations of PhD students and post-docs to fill those labs. So you are left with literature and economics, perhaps the peace prize (though some of those are not academics). How many Nobel prize winners would be willing to move to a new campus (since the award is usually later in life) and teach exclusively undergrads? You are probably correct that there is some level of money that would work but probably not worth that investment, I don't think celebrity academics would really help HC in the long run. I question how much teaching the Nobel winner would do. Not quite the Nobel level, but I know someone who took a class with Isaac Asimov at BU. The story I heard was that he saw Asimov once and the rest of the semester was taught by grad students Good point. When I was in graduate school at Northwestern, much of the undergraduates' class time in certain subjects was handled by graduate assistants. There's also the question of whether major scholars are any good at teaching a class. I once heard a story that claimed that legal scholar Roscoe Pound sat in class and read from a book, droning on and on, and boring to death those students who deigned to appear. In addition, I once had a class at Northwestern taught by a recognized expert in American colonial history. The man simply couldn't lecture very well and once apologized for his effort in the previous class. When finals rolled around, I studied by using his excellent book, not my class notes.
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Post by beaven302 on Jan 18, 2017 13:12:54 GMT -5
purple- I do not support the (total) secularization of HC. However, I would like to see a lot more balance between the two views, serious efforts to expose students to the other side of things. We could say Exposition vs. Indoctrination. One does not expect a seminary to be dedicated to Exposition. Likewise, one does not expect an institution of high learning to be dedicated to Indoctrination. Correct? You have absolutely no clue what is going on in the classrooms at Holy Cross on any given day. You came up with this Wiki little evaluation that the college is a seminary a few years ago and have been riding that pony all the way to the glue factory. Good point. Anyone who draws conclusions about what's going on day-to-day at Holy Cross by reading the mission statement, the alumni magazine, or listening to earnest students in TV promos saying that they came to HC because of its living for others ethos or its Jesuit affiliation isn't going to get the whole picture. Back in 1966, I went with a classmate to his grandfather's home in West Roxbury. The grandfather was an HC graduate and had a recent copy of the alumni newspaper in his living room. When perusing it, it was quickly apparent that the contents reflected little about the then-current student experience at Holy Cross.
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 18, 2017 13:32:53 GMT -5
I question how much teaching the Nobel winner would do. Not quite the Nobel level, but I know someone who took a class with Isaac Asimov at BU. The story I heard was that he saw Asimov once and the rest of the semester was taught by grad students Good point. When I was in graduate school at Northwestern, much of the undergraduates' class time in certain subjects was handled by graduate assistants. There's also the question of whether major scholars are any good at teaching a class. I once heard a story that claimed that legal scholar Roscoe Pound sat in class and read from a book, droning on and on, and boring to death those students who deigned to appear. In addition, I once had a class at Northwestern taught by a recognized expert in American colonial history. The man simply couldn't lecture very well and once apologized for his effort in the previous class. When finals rolled around, I studied by using his excellent book, not my class notes. That brings back memories. I once took a graduate class with Saul Padover. He was considered to be the greatest living expert on Thomas Jefferson (and even selected quotes to be engraved in the Jefferson Monument). His book was outstanding, but the class was dreadful. He was one of the worst professors I ever had (if not the absolute worst). He read us excerpts from his book the first week and then assigned topics so that every other cla was taught by students (with no input from him before or after our efforts). Ugh!
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Post by sarasota on Jan 18, 2017 14:07:44 GMT -5
You are guys are missing my point, which I explicitly stated above. The payoff is the branding, marketing, advertising--NOT the actual value of his/her teaching or scholarship.
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 18, 2017 15:35:11 GMT -5
OK, selling an image is more important than the reality. I get it.
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