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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jun 10, 2024 9:58:35 GMT -5
Some years ago on Crossports, a Croosports poster, who was also a "booster", told of how at a men's basketball game, he had a conversation with a recruit, and the recruit's parents. The poster talked about how great a school Holy Cross was, and how great it would be if their son attended. Knowledgeable posters on the board immediately jumped in, saying his conversation with the parents and recruit was an NCAA recruiting violation. IIRC, Dean W. joined in, and said there was to be no further discussion of posters contacting recruits and their parents. At about the same time, a parent of a prospective recruit joined the board, and began asking questions. Posters replied to this parent. IIRC, Dean W put a stop to that as well. ------------------ The HC compliance officer for NILs is Zach Leach. He is a lawyer, and specializes in Sports Law and Entertainment Law. He collaborated on a book by Ed O'Bannon. O'Bannon was lead plaintiff in O'Bannon v. UCLA. Perhaps the three principals for 1843 LLC have a knowledgeable lawyer advising them, but I think it quite likely that Leach would not agree to a claim that 1843 LLC does not need approval from KH or anyone in HC with regard to 1843 LLC contacts / representations / commitments / and arrangements for a separate funding stream to two HC head coaches, including but not limited to NIL contracts with current or prospective football and basketball athletes. You have no clue who we are and what we know! Time will tell what your "expert" Zach Leach knows about the NIL world. I know who the three principals for 1843 LLC are. Leach is not my expert. He is KH's 'expert'. I did not know he was on KH's staff until this morning. And it struck me that given his background and experience, he was hired by KH for the specific purpose of helping KH and HC safely and legally navigate the confusing and ever-evolving world of NILs. I daresay that the HC athletic department has never ever had a practicing lawyer on its staff. |
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jun 10, 2024 9:58:41 GMT -5
1. Make sure you fully understand my caveat: " could have sworn I heard Kit's response to some question that 'The 90-wide program is our NIL program'." It is possible that I misquoted him. I don't think I misheard him but if I did, wouldn't be the first time. Would hope some other attendee chimes in. Guess you weren't there? 2. Believe I am missing your point with your example. Yeah, all those guys might be now getting NILs but POST-grad AFTER Holy Cross graduations. They could have bailed last year for NILs. They didn't. They all valued the Holy Cross degree primarily. 3. Can't speak for anyone else, but pretty sure I get your drift but don't happen to agree. 4. Good for you that you and your colleagues are setting up NILs but from what I am hearing, Dan Curran and Dave Paulsen are looking to recruit players that are coming to Holy Cross primarily for the education that will set them up for success after graduation. If you think this automatically means we slide to a D-3 level program for our biggest sports, while you might be right, I don't see that as a given. Like me, you are entitled to your opinion. Just know that a kid coming to Holy Cross for that great academic experience will be enticed to leave that great academic experience for $$$ if that kid is any good. Leaving Curran and Paulsen with teams made of less talented players who will take the full scholarship and a chance to get a nice internship with the 90 Wide Program. Leaving Richmond, Fordham, Colgate, Lafayette and possibly Villanova to control the Patriot League. Good luck with that situation. If a kid is really THAT good and P5 schools want him, there's really nothing Holy Cross can do to keep him. That's just reality. We aren't shelling out well over six figures to a kid to keep him, nor should we do that. I do agree that we need to ensure we are staying competitive with other teams in the PL and across the top of the FCS landscape in the NIL race. |
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Post by mm67 on Jun 10, 2024 10:08:18 GMT -5
Practically speaking, will NIL greatly impact Div III programs(?) Theoretically of course this option is open to all. But in the real world are DivIII schools likely to have to deal with NIL entities? Division 3 football?   . Now that's the spirit let's just quit and play intramural football because we can just play on the freshman field in front of our girlfriends and not have to worry about the NCAA rules regarding NIL. Aw, come-on, give it a rest. As I wrote earlier, I applaud your efforts on behalf of our alma mater. |
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Post by football44 on Jun 10, 2024 10:37:21 GMT -5
Division 3 football? . Now that's the spirit let's just quit and play intramural football because we can just play on the freshman field in front of our girlfriends and not have to worry about the NCAA rules regarding NIL. Aw, come-on, give it a rest. As I wrote earlier, I applaud your efforts on behalf of our alma mater. Sorry mm67! We all bleed purple, but if the administration doesn't get serious about the new NIL world that all colleges and universities live in, then it will be a sad day for HC athletics. |
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 10, 2024 10:53:01 GMT -5
44, on behalf of myself, and likely the other posters who you have been answering on the NIL, we understand your sensitivity on the subject and please don't mistake our comments as lack of appreciation for what you and the other 1843 leaders are trying to do.
That said, I stand by my prior post that schools like Holy Cross and your efforts have a difficult road ahead as well many schools not in the rarified air of semi-professional, soon-to-be professional college athletes.
Best of luck in your efforts.
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Post by football44 on Jun 10, 2024 11:57:41 GMT -5
44, on behalf of myself, and likely the other posters who you have been answering on the NIL, we understand your sensitivity on the subject and please don't mistake our comments as lack of appreciation for what you and the other 1843 leaders are trying to do. That said, I stand by my prior post that schools like Holy Cross and your efforts have a difficult road ahead as well many schools not in the rarified air of semi-professional, soon-to-be professional college athletes. Best of luck in your efforts. Thank you Sader! It is very frustrating when you try as they say to teach an old dog new tricks. We understand that we in NO way are trying to buy players or look for Millions of dollars annually to help our coaches. But there is a level of participation that the administration needs to understand is critical for the future success of both our football and men's basketball programs. We are Holy Cross not Notre Dame. We get that. We need to at least be on par with our Patriot League competitors. Right now we are losing that race. |
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Post by hcnj on Jun 10, 2024 12:22:07 GMT -5
44, on behalf of myself, and likely the other posters who you have been answering on the NIL, we understand your sensitivity on the subject and please don't mistake our comments as lack of appreciation for what you and the other 1843 leaders are trying to do. That said, I stand by my prior post that schools like Holy Cross and your efforts have a difficult road ahead as well many schools not in the rarified air of semi-professional, soon-to-be professional college athletes. Best of luck in your efforts. Thank you Sader! It is very frustrating when you try as they say to teach an old dog new tricks. We understand that we in NO way are trying to buy players or look for Millions of dollars annually to help our coaches. But there is a level of participation that the administration needs to understand is critical for the future success of both our football and men's basketball programs. We are Holy Cross not Notre Dame. We get that. We need to at least be on par with our Patriot League competitors. Right now we are losing that race. 44, I really appreciate your passion and your perseverance in responding to posts that you feel are incorrect or you disagree with. I feel bad for you that so much of this upsets you as I'm sure you'd rather be doing other things other than for your commitment to something you believe deeply in. Thanks from someone who really doesn't know which side of the issue, or where in between, is the "right" place. And I know you are very supportive of 90-Wide and other programs aimed at our common goals. |
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Post by hc1996 on Jun 10, 2024 12:26:56 GMT -5
44, on behalf of myself, and likely the other posters who you have been answering on the NIL, we understand your sensitivity on the subject and please don't mistake our comments as lack of appreciation for what you and the other 1843 leaders are trying to do. That said, I stand by my prior post that schools like Holy Cross and your efforts have a difficult road ahead as well many schools not in the rarified air of semi-professional, soon-to-be professional college athletes. Best of luck in your efforts. Thank you Sader! It is very frustrating when you try as they say to teach an old dog new tricks. We understand that we in NO way are trying to buy players or look for Millions of dollars annually to help our coaches. But there is a level of participation that the administration needs to understand is critical for the future success of both our football and men's basketball programs. We are Holy Cross not Notre Dame. We get that. We need to at least be on par with our Patriot League competitors. Right now we are losing that race. Thanks for your efforts! Can you help clarify how we know we are losing the race within the PL? If it has already been discussed previously, I apologize. |
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jun 10, 2024 12:35:57 GMT -5
To be clear, I'm not donating anything that would do more than supply a few footballs, but I think that some of football44/1843 LLC's responses thus far are more than suspicion-arousing.
PP asked about donations that might result in coaches being liable for more taxes, unbeknownst to them. That might make them financially inflexible and penalized in a sense due to donor's activities. football44/1843 LLC says don't worry about it.
PP asked about the very visible policy of what HC says it can be done to/with their athletes. LLC replies that it is a private business and is free to do whatever they want; what they do is not Kit/Holy Cross's business. Holy Cross policy clearly makes it seem that isn't the case.
Well, aren't their student athletes HC's business? Perhaps you are enthusiastic and well-funded and eager to help. God bless you, sincerely. Let's win every PL and National Title every single year and share a drink. But that doesn't mean potential supporters will simply throw their money into the pot and lose it while athletes are disciplined/suspended/dismissed and the results you want aren't achieved. This forum more than maybe any other place outside of a player's living room is the place where you're likely to have the most support.
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Post by ndgradbuthcfan on Jun 10, 2024 13:00:50 GMT -5
As my moniker suggests I have eschewed big time college sports in favor of something with which I can more readily relate, i.e., the bowl of porridge that is "just right". I expect that Holy Cross will play by all the rules and keep pace with what all the other PL teams can legally offer their athletes.
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Post by bfoley82 on Jun 10, 2024 13:23:11 GMT -5
Practically speaking, will NIL greatly impact Div III programs(?) Theoretically of course this option is open to all. But in the real world are DivIII schools likely to have to deal with NIL entities? I have had NIL requests from D-3 athletes so YES it is open to all. |
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Post by football44 on Jun 10, 2024 13:44:02 GMT -5
Thank you Sader! It is very frustrating when you try as they say to teach an old dog new tricks. We understand that we in NO way are trying to buy players or look for Millions of dollars annually to help our coaches. But there is a level of participation that the administration needs to understand is critical for the future success of both our football and men's basketball programs. We are Holy Cross not Notre Dame. We get that. We need to at least be on par with our Patriot League competitors. Right now we are losing that race. Thanks for your efforts! Can you help clarify how we know we are losing the race within the PL? If it has already been discussed previously, I apologize. Thanks hc1996! Just go to the Fordham NIL or Colgate NIL website and you will see how actively involved their alumni and administrations are in being proactive in supporting their NIL programs. You can see that each of these schools are actively promoting their NIL programs. As an alumnus of HC, other than what you've heard about 1843 from me or my partners, have you seen any promotion or discussion from the athletic department at HC regarding the 1843 NIL? Programs like 90 Wide are great but they do not match the NIL programs are doing all over this country. (0 Wide is for when you graduate from HC, NIL starts when your a freshman or an incoming freshman. Just an example. |
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 10, 2024 13:50:45 GMT -5
You have no clue who we are and what we know! Time will tell what your "expert" Zach Leach knows about the NIL world. I know who the three principals for 1843 LLC are. Leach is not my expert. He is KH's 'expert'. I did not know he was on KH's staff until this morning. And it struck me that given his background and experience, he was hired by KH for the specific purpose of helping KH and HC safely and legally navigate the confusing and ever-evolving world of NILs. I daresay that the HC athletic department has never ever had a practicing lawyer on its staff. Phreek, Zach Leach has been the Compliance Director (Assistant AD for Compliance) since 2021, so he handles all NCAA Compliance. He also is a salary arbitration consultant for the Boston Bruins and studied under Michael McCann at UNH Franklin Pierce School of Law, who was a constant commenter during Deflategate. He is obviously a great asset for Kit but probably not costing HC an additional expense just for NIL. Hopefully he serves HC well in coach contract negotiations after going head to head with agents on behalf of the Bruins. |
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jun 10, 2024 13:51:27 GMT -5
I am not trying to be the skunk at the party, but there could be real and painful consequences for an HC athlete who receives an NIL 'outside the system'. From descriptions offered for how HC !843 LLC will operate, HC 1843 LLC seems to me, to be 'outside the system'. Below is an image excerpted from a document titled College of the Holy Cross Name, Image, and Likeness Policy for Student Athletes July 1, 2021 Fair to posit that every student athlete receives a copy of this policy when they enroll.  |
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 10, 2024 13:56:03 GMT -5
Showcasing my ignorance, is there not supposed to be an arms-length relationship between the college and the NIL entities?
I was surprised when Kit informed us of the third party organization that was intended to be an educational vehicle for Crusader student-athletes in order for the athletes to not be taken advantage of by the unscrupulous.
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 10, 2024 13:59:06 GMT -5
I am not trying to be the skunk at the party, but there could be real and painful consequences for an HC athlete who receives an NIL 'outside the system'. From descriptions offered for how HC !843 LLC will operate, HC 1843 LLC seems to me, to be outside the system. Below is an image excerpted from a document titled College of the Holy Cross Name, Image, and Likeness Policy for Student Athletes July 1, 2021 Fair to posit that every student athlete receives a copy of this policy when they enroll. Not your fault that HC websites don't get updated that often but three years is like three generations in the fast evolving world of NIL. I'm glad you pointed out Zach Leach because I think HC has NIL under as good control as possible with him and he was already on staff. |
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Post by hc1996 on Jun 10, 2024 13:59:47 GMT -5
Thanks for your efforts! Can you help clarify how we know we are losing the race within the PL? If it has already been discussed previously, I apologize. Thanks hc1996! Just go to the Fordham NIL or Colgate NIL website and you will see how actively involved their alumni and administrations are in being proactive in supporting their NIL programs. You can see that each of these schools are actively promoting their NIL programs. As an alumnus of HC, other than what you've heard about 1843 from me or my partners, have you seen any promotion or discussion from the athletic department at HC regarding the 1843 NIL? Programs like 90 Wide are great but they do not match the NIL programs are doing all over this country. (0 Wide is for when you graduate from HC, NIL starts when your a freshman or an incoming freshman. Just an example. Got it. This is concerning!! Happy to have fellow alums like you pushing to make sure we continue to be successful. Much appreciated!!! |
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jun 10, 2024 14:04:14 GMT -5
Showcasing my ignorance, is there not supposed to be an arms-length relationship between the college and the NIL entities? I was surprised when Kit informed us of the third party organization that was intended to be an educational vehicle for Crusader student-athletes in order for the athletes to not be taken advantage of by the unscrupulous. The 'arms length' is that an NIL contract is between the student athlete and a third party. The College does not review or approve the contract, nor does it enforce the contract terms if there is a breach. That does not mean that the College can not regulate the NIL process as it spplies to students matriculating at the College. |
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Post by longsuffering on Jun 10, 2024 14:04:23 GMT -5
Showcasing my ignorance, is there not supposed to be an arms-length relationship between the college and the NIL entities? I was surprised when Kit informed us of the third party organization that was intended to be an educational vehicle for Crusader student-athletes in order for the athletes to not be taken advantage of by the unscrupulous. If the college hired the third party organization then it isn't arms length and if students will get billed by the third party organizations to protect (educate) them, then you could expect partial participation at best. |
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Post by gks on Jun 10, 2024 14:19:38 GMT -5
This thread has become ridiculous. You have a group of dedicated alumni looking to give student-athletes a modest monetary amount for their time and effort in promoting the college. A simple thank you would do instead of what I'm reading. No, HC will not turn into SMU circa 1980-85. I feel like we're reading the same arguments that were made when football scholarships returned.
The NIL organizers are making sure that HC is equipped to compete in the current world of FCS football. They should be thanked.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jun 10, 2024 14:27:49 GMT -5
Showcasing my ignorance, is there not supposed to be an arms-length relationship between the college and the NIL entities? I was surprised when Kit informed us of the third party organization that was intended to be an educational vehicle for Crusader student-athletes in order for the athletes to not be taken advantage of by the unscrupulous. If the college hired the third party organization then it isn't arms length and if students will get billed by the third party organizations to protect (educate) them, then you could expect partial participation at best. The third party functions as a clearinghouse for recording NIL contracts. Colgate uses a similar clearinghouse. Third parties intending to offer NILs to HC student athletes register with and notify the clearinghouse. Students intending to sign an NIL contract with a third party notify the clearinghouse. It appears there can be a post-facto review of the signed contract. If the NIL offered is big enough dollars, the student-athlete would be well-advised to hire an attorney, and if it is really big, a tax accountant. |
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Post by alum on Jun 10, 2024 15:10:54 GMT -5
I am not sure how I come down on any of this and I am not even sure I fully understand it.
I think that 90 Wide is great and that it ought to be encouraged although I am a little unclear as to how the players can get summer internships when they are on campus working out. Maybe its more about jobs after graduation. I think that 1843 sounds like its purpose is to provide cash money to some number (not all) of football and men's hoops athletes. From what I have read so far, it looks to me like its about retention more than high school recruiting but I could be misunderstanding it. Am I also right that there is the MOGL program which looks more like a small dollar mechanism for players to control their own destiny with autographs, appearances, etc.?
As far as I am concerned, the goal is to win PL titles. After that, in football, I would like to see us advance in the playoffs, possibly even reach a national championship game some day. If we have fifth year seniors, perhaps that is possible. In hoops, I am looking for occasional victories against top 75 programs during the OOC portion of the season and perhaps an opening round win in the tournament. I don't think that anything more is ever going to be possible.
I think we should be able to compete with the PL schools with regard to NIL. Maybe not the Ivies if they decide to really get involved.
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Post by efg72 on Jun 10, 2024 15:18:40 GMT -5
As I continue to read this thread, I am reminded of the insights from the great philosopher Lawrence Berra, "The Future Aint What It Used to Be."
If we continue to grow 1843 LLC and recruit players who understand Holy Cross, I like the chances for our football and basketball coaches/teams to win and achieve roster stability. The status quo will not work for Holy Cross, now or in the future.
If the CAF dollars are either general athletic revenue or assigned to a specific team as part of the base budget, we must do more. If we replace money that once came from the school treasures, I find it disappointing and not the reason I give to the CAF. My small to modest donations are made to follow the program's intent to support the extras, programs, and needs that put us on equal footing with the top FCS football teams and mid-major basketball programs.
Unfortunately, in the future, the CAF, at any level of funding, is unlikely to be enough for us to compete, recruit, develop, and retain coaches and players and win championships in football and basketball.
The CAF may keep the school investment in sports flat so the current spending can be spread to non-revenue sports while donations from alumni, family, and friends replace school dollars to provide funding to the base budget for the major sports. 90-Wide is a unique program offered by the alumni because it allows for mentoring, employment opportunities, and lifelong relationships for our student-athletes. However, in this new environment of the NIL, we will fall short even with the CAF and the crown jewel of Holy Cross, our 90-Wide program.
That makes the third leg of the stool, 1843 LLC, a critical piece of the future success of Holy Cross Football and Men's Basketball. The incredible work and dedication of Mark, Roger, Whitey, and others to establish this NIL is a statement of their loyalty to and love for Holy Cross. It is up to the Holy Cross Family and Worcester Business Community to join this effort by becoming a member and contributing financially at any level. This effort needs to grow, and we can start with any level of support from former scholarship players and walk-ons, as well as you, the dedicated fans and supporters of Crossports.
We can get this done, and in the words of former Redskin Coach George Allen, "The Future is Now."
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 10, 2024 15:44:55 GMT -5
Many good points in your post efg, but the thing with CAF and NIL is that both are only as good relative to what our peer institutions are doing. We all agree, I think, that our NILs are not competing with the P-5 schools, large state universities, etc. Within our own arena is who we are competing with. What we do only counts relative to our peers.
I just caution that NILs are not going to be a panacea at our level.
That said, I salute the efforts of our 1843 NIL group. Their hearts and brains are in the right place.
My limited Crusader donations, however, will remain going to the HC Fund and CAFs for football, men's and women's basketball. Living on the proverbial fixed income, I have only so many dollars that can go just so far for so many worthy causes. Might be naive but believe Holy Cross knows how to use my donations wisely and I can get a tax break when donating directly to HC. Not so, the NILs.
That's just me and I hope those who are in a different situation seriously consider NIL for our athletes.
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Post by Chu Chu on Jun 10, 2024 15:47:17 GMT -5
As I continue to read this thread, I am reminded of the insights from the great philosopher Lawrence Berra, "The Future Aint What It Used to Be." If we continue to grow 1843 LLC and recruit players who understand Holy Cross, I like the chances for our football and basketball coaches/teams to win and achieve roster stability. The status quo will not work for Holy Cross, now or in the future. If the CAF dollars are either general athletic revenue or assigned to a specific team as part of the base budget, we must do more. If we replace money that once came from the school treasures, I find it disappointing and not the reason I give to the CAF. My small to modest donations are made to follow the program's intent to support the extras, programs, and needs that put us on equal footing with the top FCS football teams and mid-major basketball programs. Unfortunately, in the future, the CAF, at any level of funding, is unlikely to be enough for us to compete, recruit, develop, and retain coaches and players and win championships in football and basketball. The CAF may keep the school investment in sports flat so the current spending can be spread to non-revenue sports while donations from alumni, family, and friends replace school dollars to provide funding to the base budget for the major sports. 90-Wide is a unique program offered by the alumni because it allows for mentoring, employment opportunities, and lifelong relationships for our student-athletes. However, in this new environment of the NIL, we will fall short even with the CAF and the crown jewel of Holy Cross, our 90-Wide program. That makes the third leg of the stool, 1843 LLC, a critical piece of the future success of Holy Cross Football and Men's Basketball. The incredible work and dedication of Mark, Roger, Whitey, and others to establish this NIL is a statement of their loyalty to and love for Holy Cross. It is up to the Holy Cross Family and Worcester Business Community to join this effort by becoming a member and contributing financially at any level. This effort needs to grow, and we can start with any level of support from former scholarship players and walk-ons, as well as you, the dedicated fans and supporters of Crossports. We can get this done, and in the words of former Redskin Coach George Allen, "The Future is Now." I am extremely pleased that football 44 and his partners at 1843 LLC have started to get things moving. I am sure that our NIL efforts will be different than Georgia (who have never beaten us) (just sayin'), and probably the 1843 LLC guys don't know exactly at this point how they will be supplementing our student athletes experience, but it is gratifying to know we are positioned to be in the game. We all have a lot to learn! |
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. Now that's the spirit let's just quit and play intramural football because we can just play on the freshman field in front of our girlfriends and not have to worry about the NCAA rules regarding NIL.