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Post by sader1970 on Apr 29, 2018 20:22:37 GMT -5
Excellent response and great questions. Too late in the evening (just came back from an IVC annual awards dinner - no I didn't get one ) and been driving over an hour back home from Dorchester . . . . . BC H.S. Ugh! And have to get up before dawn to care for the grandkids the next couple of days. Not to sound like a martyr but just wanted to explain why I will not have time to respond for at least the next 2-3 days. Your post is certainly worth the time to truly digest your comments. Peace!
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Post by bison137 on Apr 29, 2018 21:29:17 GMT -5
I am not mystified the Flutie effect did not just go away. If Holy Cross were to do something spectacular in sports . . . . like win a national championship or at least become a final 4 basketball team and the name got out nationally, more students/parents would investigate the school and apply. When things go well, they tend to get better and better. When things go poorly, you get a spiral in the opposite direction. Life and colleges don't remain static. Unfortunately, we can only hope the Luth will stop the death spiral but I no longer have confidence in Holy Cross' president, BoT and Admissions folks. Some studies have concluded there was no lasting Flutie effect - but only a Boston effect, as Boston became such a hot place for students. Both Northeastern and Boston U showed more dramatic improvements than BC over the next two decades after Flutie.
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Post by hcpride on Apr 30, 2018 6:35:55 GMT -5
I am not mystified the Flutie effect did not just go away. If Holy Cross were to do something spectacular in sports . . . . like win a national championship or at least become a final 4 basketball team and the name got out nationally, more students/parents would investigate the school and apply. When things go well, they tend to get better and better. When things go poorly, you get a spiral in the opposite direction. Life and colleges don't remain static. Unfortunately, we can only hope the Luth will stop the death spiral but I no longer have confidence in Holy Cross' president, BoT and Admissions folks. Some studies have concluded there was no lasting Flutie effect - but only a Boston effect, as Boston became such a hot place for students. Both Northeastern and Boston U showed more dramatic improvements than BC over the next two decades after Flutie. Of course. Those who think BC's current success is due to the Flutie Effect, as I pointed out, must be mystified as to the fact it is still kicking in after 35 years. (sader1970 was half-kiddingly ascribing Villanova's statistical gains this year to a purported "Flutie Effect"; perhaps not knowing they had even greater gains last year, instituted early decision for the first time this year, and have been on a long term upward trajectory.)
Boston is now a very attractive place to go to school and schools like BC, BU, and Northeastern certainly owe at least a portion of their great success over the last 25 years or so to location. (Obviously there are many factors - including leadership, curriculum, etc. - as not every school in Boston has encountered great success.) Cities like NY and Philly have also become hot locations for students and many of their schools have similarly benefitted.
(As odd as it sounds it could be that 1 or 2 Crusaders might think we would have superior admissions stats and a greater academic reputation than BC today if it were not for the interminable Flutie Effect.)
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Post by ncaam on Apr 30, 2018 7:25:09 GMT -5
Boston from time immemorial has been an attractive location for college students. Flutie may have added to BC’s attractiveness but not much to Boston’s attractiveness.
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Post by alum on Apr 30, 2018 7:44:59 GMT -5
At the recent New Jersey President's Reception, Fr. Boroughs gave the number of applications as 7040. I've also heard out applicant numbers are up a bit, we're aiming for a slightly smaller class size than last year's arrivals, and therefore our acceptance statistic will improve. Not sure how that measures up relative to our competitor schools and given the increasing number of per-student applications in general. I always eyeball the relative academic qualifications (ACT/top 10%) of the enrollees (understanding 'test score optional' effect, of course) as that is a leading indicator and less easily manipulated. hcpride is right, of course, that the acceptance rate should not matter as it is easily manipulated but it is one of the many factors Admissions should work to improve. If the 7040 number is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it is not, I think that we will see some improvement with the acceptance rate (improvement being defined as a lower percentage knowing of course, that for a kid trying to get in, a higher number is preferable.) I glanced through several Common Data Sets and concluded that the yield is generally in the 31% range. If we assume a 31% yield, and a class size goal of (after melt) of 750 kids, that would necessitate accepting 2419 students. That would give an acceptance rate of 34.3% which would be a strong improvement over last year's 39%. (There were a whole lot of assumptions and it does not take a large change in numbers to throw this off so this information is of only limited utility right now.) Generate another 460 applications and the acceptance rate goes down to 32%. A lot of that is gamesmanship (free applications, for example) but but you have to play the game. My wife, who works in higher ed, called my attention to this article about test optional www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/04/27/large-study-finds-colleges-go-test-optional-become-more-diverse-and-maintain
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Post by hcpride on Apr 30, 2018 8:43:03 GMT -5
I've also heard out applicant numbers are up a bit, we're aiming for a slightly smaller class size than last year's arrivals, and therefore our acceptance statistic will improve. Not sure how that measures up relative to our competitor schools and given the increasing number of per-student applications in general. I always eyeball the relative academic qualifications (ACT/top 10%) of the enrollees (understanding 'test score optional' effect, of course) as that is a leading indicator and less easily manipulated. hcpride is right, of course, that the acceptance rate should not matter as it is easily manipulated but it is one of the many factors Admissions should work to improve. If the 7040 number is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it is not, I think that we will see some improvement with the acceptance rate (improvement being defined as a lower percentage knowing of course, that for a kid trying to get in, a higher number is preferable.) I glanced through several Common Data Sets and concluded that the yield is generally in the 31% range. If we assume a 31% yield, and a class size goal of (after melt) of 750 kids, that would necessitate accepting 2419 students. That would give an acceptance rate of 34.3% which would be a strong improvement over last year's 39%. My wife, who works in higher ed, called my attention to this article about test optional www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/04/27/large-study-finds-colleges-go-test-optional-become-more-diverse-and-maintainAgree the acceptance rate is rather easily manipulated (ED, etc.) and less important (to me, at least) than the academic quality of enrollees. Last year's acceptance rate was 39.6 and there is no way HC wants to hit 40. I agree with your approximations of what is likely to go on this year.
My understanding concerning 'test score optional' is that among the more prominent Catholic schools with HC applicant overlaps, Georgetown, Notre Dame, BC, Villanova and Fordham require test scores while Holy Cross and Providence do not. There are certainly arguments on both sides of the issue as to whether it increases diversity, etc.
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 30, 2018 8:52:30 GMT -5
One thing that I have seen mentioned repeatedly is the absence of Holy Cross at College Fairs around the country. And, we do not sent representatives to schools that used to regularly send students to HC. Do we still offer book prizes in various categories to graduating seniors and to high school debate and mock trial teams? Those got the school name (brand?) out there as well...and for very little money.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Apr 30, 2018 9:17:11 GMT -5
One thing that I have seen mentioned repeatedly is the absence of Holy Cross at College Fairs around the country. And, we do not sent representatives to schools that used to regularly send students to HC. Do we still offer book prizes in various categories to graduating seniors and to high school debate and mock trial teams? Those got the school name (brand?) out there as well...and for very little money. The book prize is still being offered to schools through out the US. I have provided a link to the HC web site. www.holycross.edu/alumni/holy-cross-book-prizeCurrently,there is a need to find additional sponsors for the schools noted in a link at the bottom of the page. There are schools in Demarest and Little Silver (Red Bank) New Jersey, that are in need of sponsorship. If you call the Alumni office they can provide additional information regarding how Alumni and friends can participate. magazine.holycross.edu/issue_49_2/49_2_alumninews/bookprize
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Post by rgs318 on Apr 30, 2018 9:24:04 GMT -5
crisis#1 thanks for that link. I see that Holy Angels Academy is in need ot an alum to sponsor a book prize. I will be contacting the Book Prize Committee Chair: Irene Drago '78 at irenedrago@gmail.com. That is just what I needed to know!
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Post by Crucis#1 on Apr 30, 2018 9:36:55 GMT -5
crisis#1 thanks for that link. I see that Holy Angels Academy is in need ot an alum to sponsor a book prize. I will be contacting the Book Prize Committee Chair: Irene Drago '78 at irenedrago@gmail.com. That is just what I needed to know! Irene will be happy to hear from you and that an additional school has found an Alumni sponsor. She will also be able to provide a compete list of all schools that currently are receiving the HC Book Prize throughout the United States.
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Post by Tom on Apr 30, 2018 9:44:08 GMT -5
Frightening that having to write an essay was such a negative factor. At my college/grad school effective writing was one of the weakest skills of the students in our graduate counseling program. We not only went to a required essay, it had to be written in person on one of our three campuses. The college essays at this point are a bit of a joke in that there is absolutely nothing to prevent a student from getting 'help' in writing them. I can't imagine college admission folks are unaware of that. (But I have heard anecdotally that additional required essays may reduce applicants as CHC8485 notes. Just as waiving fees or test scores may increase applicants). Silly anecdote. . . . I have a cousin (much smarter than I am) who had her college essay published in a book of called "Essays That Worked". She has a younger sister who did work study in the admissions office at Columbia and saw an application with the published essay copied verbatim. At least one college knows not all essays are 100 percent original meterial
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Apr 30, 2018 11:16:43 GMT -5
IMO, Holy Cross is way behind the curve in recognizing and adjusting for shifts in demographics. Its as if admissions is still living in the world that existed when the Director of Admissions matriculated. A few factoids about how Boston's population demographic has moved away from the Catholic Irish demographic over the past 30-40 years. BC, to its credit, early on recognized this shift, and adjusted. Holy Cross, not so much. www.bostonplans.org/getattachment/5b407528-bf69-4c01-83b9-d2b757178e47The New York Times recently had an article about a port city in northern England that once had a great fishing fleet, but no longer. Now the largest employers are fish processing plants, which process fish caught by other European Union nations. The city strongly favored Brexit. But now, the city wants, post Brexit, free trade so the fish can come and go without tariffs. The question being posed by others in England, is why did you vote for Brexit? The answer. www.nytimes.com/2018/04/23/business/grimsby-brexit.htmlOne can say that a similar longing for the past affects how Holy Cross approaches admissions, and certainly is a central component in the worldview of some Crossports posters.
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Post by hcpride on Apr 30, 2018 15:26:50 GMT -5
Boston from time immemorial has been an attractive location for college students. Flutie may have added to BC’s attractiveness but not much to Boston’s attractiveness. True, but I think the point is that as the cities such as NY, Washington, Boston, etc. improved in the 80's (safety, etc) and beyond they became even more attractive destinations for the college-bound. Of course this is just one of many reasons why some schools improved in reputation, applicants, etc.
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Post by alum on May 7, 2018 10:03:37 GMT -5
I am told that HC is not going to the waiting list which means the yield must be in an appropriate range. Of course, that is still subject to summer melt.
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Post by matunuck on May 31, 2018 10:09:10 GMT -5
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Post by hcpride on May 31, 2018 11:00:04 GMT -5
Interesting factoid: “About one-third of the students considered to be at the very top of the class or with a national test score of 33 to 36 ACT or 1500 to 1600 SAT gained admission to Notre Dame this year,” Bishop said. “ … We’re up four percent in applications, but we’re up 18 percent in what we would call ‘highest-ability applicants.’”
As far as the elimination of class rank in some high schools and differences between high schools who still rank: "Bishop said a change to this year’s evaluation process was less reliance on class rank, due to the prevalence of ranking oddities across high schools."
Given the current high school class rank issues as well as the varying levels of grade inflation between high schools it makes sense to retain a focus on test scores as an important factor in identifying the top academic students.
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Post by matunuck on May 31, 2018 11:36:45 GMT -5
We should at least require subjects tests.
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Post by matunuck on Jun 27, 2018 10:24:43 GMT -5
June 27 and still no admissions update anywhere on our website. #parforthecourse
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Post by hc6774 on Jun 27, 2018 19:40:04 GMT -5
Fr B told a gathering on Cape Cod Monday that we had 7000 applications and like last year the yield/acceptances exceeded expectations.
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Post by purplehaze on Jun 28, 2018 8:42:21 GMT -5
I heard at my reunion that there are about 800 coming in the freshman class, definitely exceeding the projected yield. HC's total enrollment is certainly at or slightly above 3000 now. Consider that we just graduated 737 (fairly sure that was the number) in the class of '18 and we can easily agree that the average class size is about 750 at this time.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jun 29, 2018 7:23:57 GMT -5
As an aside -- but a comment on HC's outreach, or failure thereof -- Marin Catholic High School is the only Catholic high school in affluent Marin County, across the Golden Gate Bridge.
The school published all the acceptances for the class of 2017, which probably numbered around 180 graduates. These included acceptances at the following schools.
American BC Boston U Bryant Bucknell Clark Colgate Fairfield Fordham Georgetown Lafayette Lehigh Loyola MD Providence UConn UMass Amherst UNH USMA USNA Univ of Vermont WPI plus all eight Ivies.
The notable omission was not an oversight om my part.
^^^^ I believe this is indicative of Ann doing zero informational mailings / solicitations of interest in having a student apply, even to students at Catholic high schools with solid academic reputations located in affluent areas.. Why would someone know of Bryant, but not HC?
Marin Catholic is located in Kentfield. Median household income in Kentfield in 2016 was $182,000.
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Post by HCFC45 on Jun 29, 2018 7:32:49 GMT -5
As an aside -- but a comment on HC's outreach, or failure thereof -- Marin Catholic High School is the only Catholic high school in affluent Marin County, across the Golden Gate Bridge. The school published all the acceptances for the class of 2017, which probably numbered around 180 graduates. These included acceptances at the following schools. American BC Boston U Bryant Bucknell Clark Colgate Fairfield Fordham Georgetown Lafayette Lehigh Loyola MD Providence UConn UMass Amherst UNH USMA USNA Univ of Vermont WPI plus all eight Ivies. The notable omission was not an oversight om my part. ^^^^ I believe this is indicative of Ann doing zero informational mailings / solicitations of interest in having a student apply, even to students at Catholic high schools with solid academic reputations located in affluent areas.. Why would someone know of Bryant, but not HC?Marin Catholic is located in Kentfield. Median household income in Kentfield in 2016 was $182,000. Interesting that 2 Worcester schools are listed - Clark and WPI, but not HC! She needs to go - time for a change! !
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Post by hcpride on Jun 29, 2018 9:02:04 GMT -5
PP - Nice data. Are we really surprised at this point that HC is a virtual unknown on the west coast to seventeen-year-olds and their forty-something parents? (Of course there are exceptions to this and every other generality in life.) [Speaking of Catholic High School graduates, looking at a Long Island powerhouse, Chaminade and its 375 Catholic graduates heading to college this year, a couple of things might jump out for those who don't know some fairly recent trends. For example, 24 going to SUNY Binghamton (v 8 HC, 8 FU, 9 PC, 12 ND, 14 U of Miami, 15 VU) and 13 to University of South Carolina.]
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Post by Chu Chu on Jun 29, 2018 12:10:06 GMT -5
Lots of Patriot League schools as well. Wow. Devastating.
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Post by joutsHC77 on Jun 29, 2018 12:30:29 GMT -5
List indicates graduates aren't scared to venture east for college. Pathetic leadership from the top down. Clean house.
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