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Post by tannerboyle on May 30, 2018 15:35:36 GMT -5
I couldn't agree more with Tannerboyle's comment about HC needing to find an identity in athletics. Interest in our athletic program is quite possibly at an all time low. Rivalries, you know those games that really get the adrenaline flowing, are practically non-existent. I really hope Bob Chesney can bring some life back to an athletic program in desperate need of an injection of optimism. There are one of two ways forward for The College athletically 1. Drop football completely 2. Ask the NCAA for a waiver to drop down to D3 in football only Once option 1 or 2 is executed The College needs to go about getting the basketball team into the NCAA tournament consistently. Just about any and all resources should be steered to hoop. It is our only shot at national relevance and on a dollar cost average is achievable. Once that’s done, the school needs to look toward regional sports like lacrosse and hockey where they also have the shot for relevance on a national stage. The school wastes millions, LITERALLY MILLIONS of dollars every year on the football program, it is disgusting. Short of The College wanting to gain relevance per the above outlined bullets, they should still execute on option 1 or 2 and with the money saved create a fund to bring in inner-city students that would otherwise not be able to afford tuition but otherwise demonstrate academic talent/excellence. The expected value of those students/a program like that - ya know, it being a Jesuit school and all - is exponentially higher than the expected value of a whooping at Yankee or Alumni stadiums
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Post by rgs318 on May 30, 2018 16:01:48 GMT -5
You failed mention third option...succeed with an improved football program and use that as a cornerstone of a real effort to secure an overall strong athletic program.
Do you really believe that throwing in the towel in PL/FCS football will inspire any confidence at all in those looking at the other HC athletic teams?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 30, 2018 16:11:24 GMT -5
Holy Cross “wastes” money on football the same way it wastes money on the Dinand Library, the Hogan Campus Center, lecture series, landscaping, and so many other things. They are ALL part of a first class college experience, a first class education.
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Post by tannerboyle on May 30, 2018 16:22:57 GMT -5
You failed mention third option...succeed with an improved football program and use that as a cornerstone of a real effort to secure an overall strong athletic program. Do you really believe that throwing in the towel in PL/FCS football will inspire any confidence at all in those looking at the other HC athletic teams? It is a dead medium and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional. Your college has a student body of 2,700 - a FCS enrollment that does not make. Let’s say the college carries 80 students on its football team. Now put 80 over 1350 (representative of half enrollment - ie male student) body) and you get nearly 6%. 6%!! of your male student body is on the roster. I haven’t even got to cost yet - but your “cornerstone” reference is apropos, the millions wasted on football certainly acts as a stone for the rest of the athletic department, unfortunately it sits around the neck of every other sport with the eventual threat of drowning. Now let’s get back to the enrollment, we will put the millions of dollars per annum wasted by football aside, name me another competitive FCS team that has 2700 students or less, you can’t do it. Your problem - like many other alums is you don’t want to admit to the current landscape of college athletics and where HC sits on that time/space continuum. Basketball is the ONLY answer that fits your “cornerstone” comment. There are a couple other sports that also have a shot at bringing HC glory but the only way any of that happens is if the albatross is cut from around the athletic departments neck. For those excited about the new holy cross football hire, you do realize that the head coaching job at Holy Cross - in recent/modern history - was once a top 3 head coaching job in New England, right? I hold out hope that by hiring a coach from assumption, the college is forecasting where it should actually be competing in football.
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Post by tannerboyle on May 30, 2018 16:28:12 GMT -5
Holy Cross “wastes” money on football the same way it wastes money on the Dinand Library, the Hogan Campus Center, lecture series, landscaping, and so many other things. They are ALL part of a first class college experience, a first class education. A first class education in how to take a beating from Fordham and BC while wasting the athletic departments treasure? No thanks. You really putting football up there with lecture series and Dinand? We might be in bigger trouble than i thought. Maybe this is how that chaired religious studies professor snuck in the door, ignorance. Keeping your head in the sand finds nothing but more sand.
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Post by sader1970 on May 30, 2018 20:40:24 GMT -5
The numbers are closer to 3,000 (3,020 to be exact in the fall 2017 and 48% male) now and 90 on the football team. That doesn't change your point but just wanted to make the numbers closer to reality.
There are still a significant number of older, better healed alums, who support Holy Cross football and because of football. Admittedly, that number is dwindling as they age out and die and we get an alum base that is less male dominated/less football oriented as the co-ed years come into greater play.
No question a team of 13-15 players and less gear and lower travel costs than a team of 90 with much more expensive gear is a greater leverage point for getting the Holy Cross brand known nationally. That may be the reality in the long term future but not yet.
If HC choices turn to consider D-3 or abandoning football, I would be for the latter. It would help greatly with title IX requirements. But let's see how Chesney does first.
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Post by bringbackcaro on May 30, 2018 20:47:49 GMT -5
Holy Cross “wastes” money on football the same way it wastes money on the Dinand Library, the Hogan Campus Center, lecture series, landscaping, and so many other things. They are ALL part of a first class college experience, a first class education. A first class education in how to take a beating from Fordham and BC while wasting the athletic departments treasure? No thanks. You really putting football up there with lecture series and Dinand? We might be in bigger trouble than i thought. Maybe this is how that chaired religious studies professor snuck in the door, ignorance. Keeping your head in the sand finds nothing but more sand. There were more alums who had a great day associating with Holy Cross at the Fordham game (regardless of the score) than the combination of all alums who have ever cared about any lacrosse game or outcome in HC lacrosse history. The idea that shifting funds from football to lacrosse and hockey will somehow improve HC's relevance is just plain stupid.
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Post by bison137 on May 30, 2018 21:46:31 GMT -5
If HC choices turn to consider D-3 or abandoning football, I would be for the latter. It would help greatly with title IX requirements. But let's see how Chesney does first. I think the latter would be the only possible choice. To go D3 in football would also mean moving basketball to D3 as there is zero chance (maybe less) of the NCAA granting any sort of waiver. That is very clear. As far as I can tell, HC is not moving basketball to D3 any time soon.
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Post by tannerboyle on May 31, 2018 3:56:00 GMT -5
A first class education in how to take a beating from Fordham and BC while wasting the athletic departments treasure? No thanks. You really putting football up there with lecture series and Dinand? We might be in bigger trouble than i thought. Maybe this is how that chaired religious studies professor snuck in the door, ignorance. Keeping your head in the sand finds nothing but more sand. There were more alums who had a great day associating with Holy Cross at the Fordham game (regardless of the score) than the combination of all alums who have ever cared about any lacrosse game or outcome in HC lacrosse history. The idea that shifting funds from football to lacrosse and hockey will somehow improve HC's relevance is just plain stupid. What’s actually and truly stupid is maintaining an FCS football team at a school with an enrollment of 3,000 students and in so doing wasting millions of dollars each and every year. The FCS final had 19,000 in attendance, the division 1 lacrosse final had 31,000...do the math sparky.
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Post by sader1970 on May 31, 2018 6:10:18 GMT -5
Consider easing back on the throttle tannner. This really isn't about which sport is more popular among all collegiate sports fans, it is about which sport(s) are more popular at Holy Cross. What is the fan base among students, alums, Worcesterites at a Holy Cross LAX, soccer or any other sport compared to football or basketball (or hockey)? Like it or not, football has the most fannies in the seats by far and while you can dispute how the numbers are counted, I go to the games and the average is easily 5,000 or more even when the team has been doing poorly. Routinely, the attendance is better by 50% depending on the weather and opponent and has exceeded 10,000 for night games. When the Cross is competitive in basketball, 2,500-3,000 not unusual. Hockey? Believe reports are 800-1,100. LAX? Soccer? Not so much.
But the make-up of the attendees, "quality" if you will, is also important. Crossporters like to joke about the age of the football and basketball audience on Fitton and the Hart. Yep, they are pretty old and getting older every year. But those are alums who donate to the College, not just the Crusader Athletic Fund and some of the die-hard loyal denizens of Worcester who have been supporting Holy Cross for decades. These sports are part of the glue that holds the school together. You can't put a price tag on that. I assure you that Fr. Boroughs and his predecessors know that there are many intangible benefits to continuing these sports beyond the accounting dollars or they and the BoT would have pulled the plug on them many years ago.
As I have posted many times before, Fr. Boroughs is not an HC alum and his knowledge of Holy Cross prior to becoming president was mostly as a member of the BoT. I have personally heard him say multiple times that the one thing that Holy Cross is noted among all other things is its fanatical (in a good sense) alums. I also met the Jesuit provincial about 6 -8 months ago and despite having no connection to Holy Cross, other than being a Jesuit, telling me that besides being a great educational place, he has always heard that Holy Cross alums are like no other in their love of the place.
And, yes, this is why it is so disappointing that TPTB decided to get rid of the symbol of Holy Cross (besides the sacred and ubiquitous crosses on campus) the "Holy Cross Crusader." They have pulled a loose thread that will have serious ramifications for years to come.
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Post by hcpride on May 31, 2018 6:42:53 GMT -5
If HC choices turn to consider D-3 or abandoning football, I would be for the latter. It would help greatly with title IX requirements. But let's see how Chesney does first. I think the latter would be the only possible choice. To go D3 in football would also mean moving basketball to D3 as there is zero chance (maybe less) of the NCAA granting any sort of waiver. That is very clear. As far as I can tell, HC is not moving basketball to D3 any time soon. Dropping schollie FCS football at HC would have the same effect that dropping football had on our former (and nearby) D-1 competitors, Northeastern and BU. (Predictions of dire consequences from some quarters ultimately proved essentially inaccurate.)
When Hofstra dropped D-1 football the college president cited cost concerns (including, but not limited to, full football schollies and matching Title IX schollies) and the fact that the road to national relevance did not run through FCS football. While the non-revenue sports don't provide a path to national relevance either, their low costs justified continuance.
(This is not to suggest Northeastern, BU, or Hofstra are the same as Holy Cross in terms of history or current academic reputation.)
At some point we may look at a University of Chicago or NESCAC model - again, this is not to suggest an identical history and academic reputation.
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Post by trimster on May 31, 2018 7:42:56 GMT -5
Some excellent points made by the above two posters. The last 35 years have shown that the bottom hasn't fallen out of the alumni giving despite ending the athletic program as many of us remember it. The Holy Cross experience is about far more than the success or struggles of the athletic program and that has clearly been shown by the continued financial support of the college.
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Post by tannerboyle on May 31, 2018 8:26:22 GMT -5
Consider easing back on the throttle tannner. This really isn't about which sport is more popular among all collegiate sports fans, it is about which sport(s) are more popular at Holy Cross. What is the fan base among students, alums, Worcesterites at a Holy Cross LAX, soccer or any other sport compared to football or basketball (or hockey)? Like it or not, football has the most fannies in the seats by far and while you can dispute how the numbers are counted, I go to the games and the average is easily 5,000 or more even when the team has been doing poorly. Routinely, the attendance is better by 50% depending on the weather and opponent and has exceeded 10,000 for night games. When the Cross is competitive in basketball, 2,500-3,000 not unusual. Hockey? Believe reports are 800-1,100. LAX? Soccer? Not so much. But the make-up of the attendees, "quality" if you will, is also important. Crossporters like to joke about the age of the football and basketball audience on Fitton and the Hart. Yep, they are pretty old and getting older every year. But those are alums who donate to the College, not just the Crusader Athletic Fund and some of the die-hard loyal denizens of Worcester who have been supporting Holy Cross for decades. These sports are part of the glue that holds the school together. You can't put a price tag on that. I assure you that Fr. Boroughs and his predecessors know that there are many intangible benefits to continuing these sports beyond the accounting dollars or they and the BoT would have pulled the plug on them many years ago. As I have posted many times before, Fr. Boroughs is not an HC alum and his knowledge of Holy Cross prior to becoming president was mostly as a member of the BoT. I have personally heard him say multiple times that the one thing that Holy Cross is noted among all other things is its fanatical (in a good sense) alums. I also met the Jesuit provincial about 6 -8 months ago and despite having no connection to Holy Cross, other than being a Jesuit, telling me that besides being a great educational place, he has always heard that Holy Cross alums are like no other in their love of the place. And, yes, this is why it is so disappointing that TPTB decided to get rid of the symbol of Holy Cross (besides the sacred and ubiquitous crosses on campus) the "Holy Cross Crusader." They have pulled a loose thread that will have serious ramifications for years to come. Easing back on the throttle? The athletic department - in its current form - is the corporate equivalent of Sears and Toys R Us and there is one elephant responsible for that comparison. The points of my posts haven’t been “Lacrosse, lacrosse, lacrosse”, the numbers I’ve provided are in response to ill informed responses. If getting rid of football, lacrosse, and hockey meant consistent relevance in hoop i’d be all for it. The fact of the matter is there is ONE sport flushing millions annually and if anyone thinks those millions don’t create a drag on the entire department then they need to wake up. For those that think football is so important to the overall makeup of a college, head south to PC and ask them whether they care about whether or not they have a football team, or do the same at BU as someone else had pointed out. For those that hold out hope for a revival of the football program, i ask to what end? UMass won a 1AA championship not “too” long ago - a school with x multiple enrollment of HC and it was as if a tree fell in the middle of the woods at 3am, nobody cared.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 31, 2018 8:42:43 GMT -5
Mr Boyle-- you have hit this board like a whirlwind with post after post of late, criticizing the athletic program and demeaning many of the posters ("do the math sparky" was a real treat to read) as being old and out of touch and lacking the brilliant insights and judgment that you believe you alone possess. Would you mind telling us your background and association with Holy Cross, if any? It helps put things in perspective for the rest of us. I'm guessing you're young--but I could be wrong, so could you inform us? Thanks.
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Post by bringbackcaro on May 31, 2018 8:54:29 GMT -5
There were more alums who had a great day associating with Holy Cross at the Fordham game (regardless of the score) than the combination of all alums who have ever cared about any lacrosse game or outcome in HC lacrosse history. The idea that shifting funds from football to lacrosse and hockey will somehow improve HC's relevance is just plain stupid. What’s actually and truly stupid is maintaining an FCS football team at a school with an enrollment of 3,000 students and in so doing wasting millions of dollars each and every year. The FCS final had 19,000 in attendance, the division 1 lacrosse final had 31,000...do the math sparky. Lacrosse National Champion Yale had a total home attendance of 13,484 in 8 home games this year (avg: 1,686) A down Holy Cross football team had a total home attendance of 36,001 in 5 home games this year (avg: 7,200) If HC can improve the football program, there would likely me more people at the Homecoming game than the total 8-game season attendance for the National Champion in Lacrosse. As much as Lacrosse people try to drum up their sport, it is totally irrelevant outside of the families and people who play.
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Post by rgs318 on May 31, 2018 9:06:48 GMT -5
What’s actually and truly stupid is maintaining an FCS football team at a school with an enrollment of 3,000 students and in so doing wasting millions of dollars each and every year. The FCS final had 19,000 in attendance, the division 1 lacrosse final had 31,000...do the math sparky. Holy Cross played in neither game so, for HC, that does not matter one way or the other...pay attention sparky. You have used the term "waste" often enough for us all to know your opinion. However, many of us - as I am sure you can tell from the many posts here - do not agree with that opinion and hold others. If HC responds to Chesney and does well in the next few years, getting into the FCS playoffs and actually winning a game or two, would the cost of the sport still be a waste? I have to believe you would still find a way to make it seem so. Good luck with that.
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Post by sader1970 on May 31, 2018 9:10:22 GMT -5
If it bears repeating . . . . yes!
Your response post was just more evidence that you are not posting, you are screaming.
You think football is a colossal waste of money. We get it. But my impression is there more to this in background. Did you get cut from the football team? Lose a scholarship?
And, actually, this whole train of thought should be on a football thread, not NCAA LAX.
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Post by tannerboyle on May 31, 2018 9:16:30 GMT -5
Mr Boyle-- you have hit this board like a whirlwind with post after post of late, criticizing the athletic program and demeaning many of the posters ("do the math sparky" was a real treat to read) as being old and out of touch and lacking the brilliant insights and judgment that you believe you alone possess. Would you mind telling us your background and association with Holy Cross, if any? It helps put things in perspective for the rest of us. I'm guessing you're young--but I could be wrong, so could you inform us? Thanks. Based on the above, i guess I hit home pretty hard with some of the posts. If “sparky” is offensive then I can only imagine (and hope) you let Fr. B know how offensive that chaired religious studies Professors past teachings are. Alum of the college, graduated in the 90’s. I did not play a sport at The College. I also think football is a great sport, just not in its current form atop Mt St James. As for the last post about attendance, i have a hard time buying those numbers on the holy cross side of the ball. But let’s say they’re true, the average will be heavily skewed to homecoming weekend and what is Yale’s operating cost for their program versus HC football team. What is the end result of how the teams finished up in terms of providing their respective institutions national prestige. I also have to assume Yale (and other teams) took some form of treasure - besides the NCAA’s hunk of wood - from ESPN.
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Post by tannerboyle on May 31, 2018 9:23:54 GMT -5
What’s actually and truly stupid is maintaining an FCS football team at a school with an enrollment of 3,000 students and in so doing wasting millions of dollars each and every year. The FCS final had 19,000 in attendance, the division 1 lacrosse final had 31,000...do the math sparky. Holy Cross played in neither game so, for HC, that does not matter one way or the other...pay attention sparky. You have used the term "waste" often enough for us all to know your opinion. However, many of us - as I am sure you can tell from the many posts here - do not agree with that opinion and hold others. If HC responds to Chesney and does well in the next few years, getting into the FCS playoffs and actually winning a game or two, would the cost of the sport still be a waste? I have to believe you would still find a way to make it seem so. Good luck with that. I look forward to watching this all play out. Clearly I’ve struck some nerves. I’m arguing dollars and cents, no more no less.
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Post by hcpride on May 31, 2018 9:24:07 GMT -5
I suppose there is a chance the Luth becomes somewhat of an albatross around our collective necks should all other indicators suggest the most prudent move is ditching schollie-FCS football. Were it not for the Luth, I am thinking the Chesney era would be our last chance for schollie-FCS relevance.
(Obviously, our dismal lax experiences over the last decade is another issue altogether.)
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Post by sader1970 on May 31, 2018 9:26:41 GMT -5
I think I am probably considered the resident-expert on sarcasm here and my sarcasm-detector went bonkers when you called out another poster as "sparky." In and of itself, not offensive. In fact, the greatest dog I ever owned was a black lab-golden retriever named "Sparky."
Since you find the term inoffensive, you won't mind if the rest of us posters refer to you as "Sparky," OK?
For the record and fully understanding that you were not directing your comment to me personally, I indeed let Fr. B know "how offensive that chaired religious studies Professors past teachings are." So, at least there we are on the same page.
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Post by tannerboyle on May 31, 2018 18:16:53 GMT -5
I think I am probably considered the resident-expert on sarcasm here and my sarcasm-detector went bonkers when you called out another poster as "sparky." In and of itself, not offensive. In fact, the greatest dog I ever owned was a black lab-golden retriever named "Sparky." Since you find the term inoffensive, you won't mind if the rest of us posters refer to you as "Sparky," OK? For the record and fully understanding that you were not directing your comment to me personally, I indeed let Fr. B know "how offensive that chaired religious studies Professors past teachings are." So, at least there we are on the same page. An undirected/unrequested quote response from the resident-expert on sarcasm, lucky me! I only wish you were nearly as well versed in the economics of college sports. You can call me Sparky but only if I can call you Doc Brown - question is who is going to get you up to 85mph in the Delorean to get you back to when The College was all male and Division 1 football made sense. Here endeth my side of the ‘discussion’ on this topic - I believe time, economics, and common sense will force the wind to blow in the right direction on this, the question is how soon. Godspeed
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Post by hc87 on May 31, 2018 22:38:41 GMT -5
There's really no substitute for football (be it FBS, FCS, D3 etc) in the college sports landscape. No other sport (imo anyway) fills the need for Homecoming, Parent's Weekend, President Council's Weekend, other events like playing at Yankee Stadium, playing at BC etc etc. It is what it is.
We blew it on basketball when we didn't join the Big East in the late 1970s...I think most of us here can agree to that....horse has left the barn there, games against Bucknell, Lehigh etc are never going to drum up much interest beyond the diehards here.
As is oft said here, all the other sports not named football or men's basketball are essentially niche college sports...nice to have, but will never really garner the College much notoriety, brand-sense etc.
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