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Post by sader1970 on Jan 2, 2019 8:26:07 GMT -5
UNH, you may be referring to me, among others. If so, I meant to clarify that the rivalry in the mind of Holy Cross fans of a certain age most definitely applies to BC alums of a certain age as well. I can tell you that while at the last football game this fall that on the bus from the remote parking garage and back and walking to the stadium there was a lot of good-natured ribbing back and forth among Eagle and Crusader fans and satisfaction that the game was being played. And afterwards, even after the final one-sided results were in.
The BC athletic department had to very pleased with how many Holy Cross fans helped fill Alumni Stadium and bought things from their concession stands.
No, it's not a rivalry anymore but still important to a lot of people - "on both sides of the aisle."
As to some young BC student who doesn't know the history of the biggest rivalry in New England college sports (many believe bigger than Harvard-Yale), that's OK, because there are probably many Holy Cross students who aren't aware of it either. There are probably no professors around Mt. St. James anymore, like B+ McCann, who made it a point to educate his students of the glorious history of Holy Cross on and off the field.
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Post by hcpride on Jan 2, 2019 9:00:56 GMT -5
As to some young BC student who doesn't know the history of the biggest rivalry in New England college sports (many believe bigger than Harvard-Yale), that's OK, because there are probably many Holy Cross students who aren't aware of it either. There are probably no professors around Mt. St. James anymore, like B+ McCann, who made it a point to educate his students of the glorious history of Holy Cross on and off the field. That is a good point. So many BC students nowadays do not come from New England and have virtually no knowledge of Holy Cross so why on earth would they know (or care) about a rivalry with an unknown school that died decades before they were born?
I do run into BU/BC student and alums (older and younger) who think of BU/BC as longtime (and continuing) rivals. (Proximity/Applicant Overlap/Hockey/etc). Doesn't match BC/HC a half century ago. IMHO
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Post by jkh67 on Jan 2, 2019 20:17:24 GMT -5
UNH, you may be referring to me, among others. If so, I meant to clarify that the rivalry in the mind of Holy Cross fans of a certain age most definitely applies to BC alums of a certain age as well. I can tell you that while at the last football game this fall that on the bus from the remote parking garage and back and walking to the stadium there was a lot of good-natured ribbing back and forth among Eagle and Crusader fans and satisfaction that the game was being played. And afterwards, even after the final one-sided results were in. The BC athletic department had to very pleased with how many Holy Cross fans helped fill Alumni Stadium and bought things from their concession stands. No, it's not a rivalry anymore but still important to a lot of people - "on both sides of the aisle." As to some young BC student who doesn't know the history of the biggest rivalry in New England college sports (many believe bigger than Harvard-Yale), that's OK, because there are probably many Holy Cross students who aren't aware of it either. There are probably no professors around Mt. St. James anymore, like B+ McCann, who made it a point to educate his students of the glorious history of Holy Cross on and off the field. I fully agree. It was a bitter rivalry in my time in the '60s and fully acknowledged by both sides as such. Sic transit gloria mundi, baby! As for HC-BC vs. Harvard-Yale, I remember watching a football game many years ago in which the broadcaster noted that Harvard was playing Yale that same day in the game of the year in New England. The color commentator for the game I was watching was Dick MacPherson (a former head coach at UMass and Syracuse). He immediately rejoined that HC-BC, not Harvard-Yale, had been the N.E. game of the year "back in the day". I'm happy that those Saders who attended the BC game had a good time, but I'm not sure I see much future in football as the results are likely to be lopsided almost every time. Now basketball, that's something else again!
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Post by hc87 on Jan 2, 2019 22:12:35 GMT -5
HC was "Worcester's team" when it 1) played a major basketball schedule and 2) played BC at the end of the year in football....a fait accompli that neither exist anymore but it's also about 95% of the reason why HC and Worcester lost that relationship, probably never to be returned (at that level anyway).
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 3, 2019 7:26:33 GMT -5
Not sure about all that. Holy Cross was definitely Worcester’s school in the 1930’s and 1940’s. In large part because of the many Irish Catholic immigrants and first generation Irish and Holy Cross had many of the same going there. There was a perception that the HC students had the same background but from more successful families. My mother and her twin sister were born and raised in Worcester and their parents were working class Irish immigrants.
In those days, the equivalent of “mixers” was at the Carol Club where the local girls could meet Holy Cross men in a safe environment.
My Mom and her twin sister “moved on up” in status when they married my Dad and Uncle.
Now, HC is co-ed, no mixers with Worcester girls. In fact, many more locals go to college themselves. Probably a lot fewer marriages with locals unless the local also already goes to HC.
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Post by ndgradbuthcfan on Jan 3, 2019 9:02:59 GMT -5
Not sure about all that. Holy Cross was definitely Worcester’s school in the 1930’s and 1940’s. In large part because of the many Irish Catholic immigrants and first generation Irish and Holy Cross had many of the same going there. There was a perception that the HC students had the same background but from more successful families. My mother and her twin sister were born and raised in Worcester and their parents were working class Irish immigrants. In those days, the equivalent of “mixers” was at the Carol Club where the local girls could meet Holy Cross men in a safe environment. My Mom and her twin sister “moved on up” in status when they married my Dad and Uncle. Now, HC is co-ed, no mixers with Worcester girls. In fact, many more locals go to college themselves. Probably a lot fewer marriages with locals unless the local also already goes to HC. Your Mom and Aunt would probably say that it was your Dad and Uncle who "moved up". By the way, did you attend high school in Worcester (I did; Worcester North, in 1964)?
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Post by WCHC Sports on Jan 3, 2019 9:18:22 GMT -5
Germany and Japan were our rivals in the 1930s and 1940s as well. Now? History.
Bucknell is our rival, and if we don't play them well enough, then they are winning the rivalry. Academically in the rankings, and athletically in the same league-- whether you like it or not-- they are the rival of the last 15-20 years.
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 3, 2019 9:45:09 GMT -5
I agree with WCHC. But there is no need to have only one rival, is there?
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Post by hc87 on Jan 3, 2019 20:10:04 GMT -5
i freakin' hate Lafayette....jerks
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Post by longsuffering on Jan 3, 2019 20:43:27 GMT -5
Perhaps ND can fill this in a bit, but I remember in the 60's and 70's the tremendous Assumption Greyhound basketball teams from Serge Debari through to John Grochowalski captured Worcester's love and affection. The 'hounds always seemed to be going to Evansville, Indiana for the NCAA division two final tournament, sold out their gym, played Providence and HC, and received great positive coverage in the Telegram and Gazette (separate papers back then).
We got the Globe delivered in the AM, the Traveler in the PM, and my father would bring home the Gazette from work. Assumption didn't get much coverage in the Boston papers but seemed to get equal coverage with HC in the Worcester papers.
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Post by hcpride on Jan 3, 2019 21:45:35 GMT -5
Germany and Japan were our rivals in the 1930s and 1940s as well. Now? History. Bucknell is our rival, and if we don't play them well enough, then they are winning the rivalry. Academically in the rankings, and athletically in the same league-- whether you like it or not-- they are the rival of the last 15-20 years. I see your point that we (Bucknell and HC) are similarly ranked academically and play each other in all sorts of sports within the Patriot League but I think rivalries are enhanced by relative geographic proximity (wherein fans can travel to the other locale) and student body similarities (applicant overlap). Bucknell is 5-6 hours away from HC (and not in a strong alumni area) with very little (if any at all) applicant overlap. If Fordham was a full PL member, they would be a 'better' (IMHO) rival. Ditto for PC - in fact PC would be an excellent rival for us (very near by and very similar students).
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Post by Ignutz on Jan 3, 2019 23:14:39 GMT -5
Germany and Japan were our rivals in the 1930s and 1940s as well. Now? History. Bucknell is our rival, and if we don't play them well enough, then they are winning the rivalry. Academically in the rankings, and athletically in the same league-- whether you like it or not-- they are the rival of the last 15-20 years. I see your point that we (Bucknell and HC) are similarly ranked academically and play each other in all sorts of sports within the Patriot League but I think rivalries are enhanced by relative geographic proximity (wherein fans can travel to the other locale) and student body similarities (applicant overlap). Bucknell is 5-6 hours away from HC (and not in a strong alumni area) with very little (if any at all) applicant overlap. If Fordham was a full PL member, they would be a 'better' (IMHO) rival. Ditto for PC - in fact PC would be an excellent rival for us (very near by and very similar students). If you’re speaking of academics, I’ll strongly disagree with your “very similar students” comment. The VSS are at Chestnut Hill CC. I might concede to “somewhat similar “ overall, but that’s still a stretch academically.
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Post by hcpride on Jan 4, 2019 5:52:25 GMT -5
I see your point that we (Bucknell and HC) are similarly ranked academically and play each other in all sorts of sports within the Patriot League but I think rivalries are enhanced by relative geographic proximity (wherein fans can travel to the other locale) and student body similarities (applicant overlap). Bucknell is 5-6 hours away from HC (and not in a strong alumni area) with very little (if any at all) applicant overlap. If Fordham was a full PL member, they would be a 'better' (IMHO) rival. Ditto for PC - in fact PC would be an excellent rival for us (very near by and very similar students). If you’re speaking of academics, I’ll strongly disagree with your “very similar students” comment. The VSS are at Chestnut Hill CC. I might concede to “somewhat similar “ overall, but that’s still a stretch academically. Not sure I agree with you about the VSS nowadays (although it is certain a good proportion of HC applicants also apply to BC) To the extent this helps see who is going after the same kids, US News & World Report lists four cross-applicant schools as part of its annual and widely-read ratings each year: Holy Cross: BC, Fordham, Providence, UMass Amherst Boston College: Georgetown, Northeastern, Notre Dame, University of Virginia Fordham: Binghamton (SUNY), BC, BU, NYU Providence College: BC, Holy Cross, Fairfield, Fordham Note: The four cross-applicant schools are presented alphabetically by USNWR. This is the 2019 report/survey. I read this as, for example, Holy Cross applicants have tended to apply (at the greatest rate) also to these four other schools. PC-HC is a true double cross (that has surprised more than one HC person). Certainly if applicant overlap and general geographic proximity are components to a rivalry...PC and Fordham (if full Patriot members) would make very nice rivals for us.
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Post by hcpride on Jan 4, 2019 6:04:20 GMT -5
If you’re speaking of academics, I’ll strongly disagree with your “very similar students” comment. The VSS are at Chestnut Hill CC. I might concede to “somewhat similar “ overall, but that’s still a stretch academically. Not sure I agree with you about the VSS nowadays (although it is certain a good proportion of HC/Fordham/PC applicants also apply to BC) To the extent this helps see who is going after the same kids, US News & World Report lists four cross-applicant schools as part of its annual and widely-read ratings each year: Holy Cross: BC, Fordham, Providence, UMass Amherst Boston College: Georgetown, Northeastern, Notre Dame, University of Virginia Fordham: Binghamton (SUNY), BC, BU, NYU Providence College: BC, Holy Cross, Fairfield, Fordham Note: The four cross-applicant schools are presented alphabetically by USNWR. This is the 2019 report/survey. I read this as, for example, Holy Cross applicants have tended to apply (at the greatest rate) also to these four other schools. PC-HC is a true double cross (that has surprised more than one HC person). Certainly if applicant overlap and general geographic proximity are components to a rivalry...PC and Fordham (if full Patriot members) would make very nice rivals for us. More so than some of our full-Patriot brethren.
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Post by ndgradbuthcfan on Jan 4, 2019 6:15:44 GMT -5
Perhaps ND can fill this in a bit, but I remember in the 60's and 70's the tremendous Assumption Greyhound basketball teams from Serge Debari through to John Grochowalski captured Worcester's love and affection. The 'hounds always seemed to be going to Evansville, Indiana for the NCAA division two final tournament, sold out their gym, played Providence and HC, and received great positive coverage in the Telegram and Gazette (separate papers back then). We got the Globe delivered in the AM, the Traveler in the PM, and my father would bring home the Gazette from work. Assumption didn't get much coverage in the Boston papers but seemed to get equal coverage with HC in the Worcester papers. Played Providence and HC and beat them occasionally. Also had a home game against South Carolina, coached by Al Maguire's brother, Frank. Finished 3rd in the country, three years in a row. Their teams had a lot of local kids from St. John's, North and Fitchburg. Clark also reached final four one year and Worcester State women won the D3 title.
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Post by Ignutz on Jan 4, 2019 21:37:24 GMT -5
If you’re speaking of academics, I’ll strongly disagree with your “very similar students” comment. The VSS are at Chestnut Hill CC. I might concede to “somewhat similar “ overall, but that’s still a stretch academically. Not sure I agree with you about the VSS nowadays (although it is certain a good proportion of HC applicants also apply to BC) To the extent this helps see who is going after the same kids, US News & World Report lists four cross-applicant schools as part of its annual and widely-read ratings each year: Holy Cross: BC, Fordham, Providence, UMass Amherst Boston College: Georgetown, Northeastern, Notre Dame, University of Virginia Fordham: Binghamton (SUNY), BC, BU, NYU Providence College: BC, Holy Cross, Fairfield, Fordham Note: The four cross-applicant schools are presented alphabetically by USNWR. This is the 2019 report/survey. I read this as, for example, Holy Cross applicants have tended to apply (at the greatest rate) also to these four other schools. PC-HC is a true double cross (that has surprised more than one HC person). Certainly if applicant overlap and general geographic proximity are components to a rivalry...PC and Fordham (if full Patriot members) would make very nice rivals for us.
I still like the wise-ass commentary from years back: The one thing that Holy Cross and BC students/alums have in common is that we all got into BC. 😇
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Post by DiMarz on Jan 8, 2019 19:18:58 GMT -5
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Post by trimster on Jan 8, 2019 19:51:33 GMT -5
Perhaps ND can fill this in a bit, but I remember in the 60's and 70's the tremendous Assumption Greyhound basketball teams from Serge Debari through to John Grochowalski captured Worcester's love and affection. The 'hounds always seemed to be going to Evansville, Indiana for the NCAA division two final tournament, sold out their gym, played Providence and HC, and received great positive coverage in the Telegram and Gazette (separate papers back then). We got the Globe delivered in the AM, the Traveler in the PM, and my father would bring home the Gazette from work. Assumption didn't get much coverage in the Boston papers but seemed to get equal coverage with HC in the Worcester papers. Don’t forget Jake Jones, Mike Boylan, Jim Boylan, Bill Wurm. They had some great teams and quite a following. Went to an HC AC game at Laska Gym when Potter and Vicens were frosh. Assumption would have won a one point game but one of their big men missed a point blank shot with seconds left.
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 9, 2019 8:34:09 GMT -5
The videos keep getting better. Now the team needs to follow suit!
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Post by timholycross on Jan 9, 2019 9:44:40 GMT -5
Perhaps ND can fill this in a bit, but I remember in the 60's and 70's the tremendous Assumption Greyhound basketball teams from Serge Debari through to John Grochowalski captured Worcester's love and affection. The 'hounds always seemed to be going to Evansville, Indiana for the NCAA division two final tournament, sold out their gym, played Providence and HC, and received great positive coverage in the Telegram and Gazette (separate papers back then). We got the Globe delivered in the AM, the Traveler in the PM, and my father would bring home the Gazette from work. Assumption didn't get much coverage in the Boston papers but seemed to get equal coverage with HC in the Worcester papers. Don’t forget Jake Jones, Mike Boylan, Jim Boylan, Bill Wurm. They had some great teams and quite a following. Went to an HC AC game at Laska Gym when Potter and Vicens were frosh. Assumption would have won a one point game but one of their big men missed a point blank shot with seconds left. ...that blends in a couple of points. AC did play South Carolina, that game was in Providence as part of an 8 team 3 game tournament. Later on AC played HC in a consolation round, HC beat them very handily (at least 20 points). Sure enough, a week to 10 days later at Laska Gym, Holy Cross was very lucky to win a second time. AC had the misfortune in Evansville of always facing a school on the way up to Division 1. One opponent was Eastern Michigan,with George Gervin. Another one was Southwest Louisiana (now LA Lafayette), who did well at the D1 level until recruiting violations resulted in a one or two year death penalty. A third one was Morgan State, with Marvin The Human Eraser Webster. I'd say around the time Vicens and Potter left HC, AC's glory days were over. The cable TV explosion killed a lot of smaller programs with good followings as well as the bigger programs that didn't end up in big conferences.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 9, 2019 9:57:56 GMT -5
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Post by Tom on Jan 9, 2019 10:11:02 GMT -5
Don’t forget Jake Jones, Mike Boylan, Jim Boylan, Bill Wurm. They had some great teams and quite a following. Went to an HC AC game at Laska Gym when Potter and Vicens were frosh. Assumption would have won a one point game but one of their big men missed a point blank shot with seconds left. ...that blends in a couple of points. AC did play South Carolina, that game was in Providence as part of an 8 team 3 game tournament. Later on AC played HC in a consolation round, HC beat them very handily (at least 20 points). Sure enough, a week to 10 days later at Laska Gym, Holy Cross was very lucky to win a second time. AC had the misfortune in Evansville of always facing a school on the way up to Division 1. One opponent was Eastern Michigan,with George Gervin. Another one was Southwest Louisiana (now LA Lafayette), who did well at the D1 level until recruiting violations resulted in a one or two year death penalty. A third one was Morgan State, with Marvin The Human Eraser Webster. I'd say around the time Vicens and Potter left HC, AC's glory days were over. The cable TV explosion killed a lot of smaller programs with good followings as well as the bigger programs that didn't end up in big conferences. I believe Assumption was also the first D-II school to beat a team from the new Big East (Providence),
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Post by gks on Jan 9, 2019 10:12:29 GMT -5
AC had some excellent runs when Serge DeBari was the coach in the late 90s/early 2000s. They have currently fallen off the map. Too bad.
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Post by timholycross on Jan 9, 2019 11:15:24 GMT -5
...that blends in a couple of points. AC did play South Carolina, that game was in Providence as part of an 8 team 3 game tournament. Later on AC played HC in a consolation round, HC beat them very handily (at least 20 points). Sure enough, a week to 10 days later at Laska Gym, Holy Cross was very lucky to win a second time. AC had the misfortune in Evansville of always facing a school on the way up to Division 1. One opponent was Eastern Michigan,with George Gervin. Another one was Southwest Louisiana (now LA Lafayette), who did well at the D1 level until recruiting violations resulted in a one or two year death penalty. A third one was Morgan State, with Marvin The Human Eraser Webster. I'd say around the time Vicens and Potter left HC, AC's glory days were over. The cable TV explosion killed a lot of smaller programs with good followings as well as the bigger programs that didn't end up in big conferences. I believe Assumption was also the first D-II school to beat a team from the new Big East (Providence), I am sure that in 1973-74, Blaney's second year, HC and AC both won at McDonough Hall, Georgetown's former home (which looked like our Fieldhouse with stands!). Go figure.
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Post by trimster on Jan 9, 2019 11:29:38 GMT -5
AC had some excellent runs when Serge DeBari was the coach in the late 90s/early 2000s. They have currently fallen off the map. Too bad. I wasn't around for the late 40's to early 60's era, I read the other day HC was ranked in somewhere around 65 percent of the weekly top twenty polls during that time frame, but the 70's was a great time to be a college hoops fan in Worcester and in New England. Interest was very high, no ESPN, no Big East, great rivalries with geographic neighbors, end of season ECAC tourneys in Springfield, Hartford and Providence Civiv Centers. So glad I was around to see it.
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