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Post by hchoops on May 6, 2021 13:48:28 GMT -5
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Post by rgs318 on May 6, 2021 14:46:49 GMT -5
I agree on that one. I still recall praying very hard for him to get a hit when he pitch hit for the Mets in his last MLB at bat. Some of his catches were almost ballet-like as he tracked down and pulled in what looked like a sure hit..poetry in motion.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 6, 2021 15:06:55 GMT -5
Willie Mays was/is a class act and clearly one of the top 20 players of all-time. I'd have him right behind Mickey Mantle for center fielder on my team. Of course, Mike Trout is gaining ground on both of them with every passing season. Happy Birthday to the Say Hey Kid
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Post by hchoops on May 6, 2021 15:12:15 GMT -5
I have him ahead of Mantle based mostly on length of excellence.
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Post by alum on May 6, 2021 15:44:55 GMT -5
The Catch
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Post by timholycross on May 6, 2021 16:17:54 GMT -5
He did put the Mets ahead in Game 2 of the WS even though he was running on fumes at that point (and only got up one more time in the Series). That was a good way to end things.
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Post by efg72 on May 6, 2021 19:44:52 GMT -5
I have him ahead of Mantle based mostly on length of excellence. All who saw him play received a special gift from above! |
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Post by hchoops on May 6, 2021 20:01:14 GMT -5
Saw him hit a homer and a double, with a steal, off Ken Holtzman in the dense fog at Candlestick in August, 1969.
Marichal shut out the Cubs
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Post by mm67 on May 6, 2021 20:03:54 GMT -5
Mays vs. Mantle? No contest. Certainly Mantle was a great player but nowhere near the level of Mays in all phases of the game.
Hit , hit with power, field, run & throw.
In the biography pf Mays "24" (written with John Shea} there is a statistical comparison which clearly shows Mays had superior hitting skills in most metrics.
No doubt,Mantle was superior at bunting.Some power numbers but not all slightly favored Mantle. Strike Outs? Walks favored Mantle. On a yearly basis Mays was more consistent over the course of his career.
Mantle was fast (especially sprinting from home plate to first base) but he could not run the bases ( involves more tha speed/ stealing) at the level of Mays. Mays could exert control of the game on the base paths in a way Mantle never equaled..(Jackie was the best)
Mantle was a fine outfielder but in no way was he comparable to Mays. Mays covered the outfield. (Especially in the days of injured Monte Irvin and slow Don Mueller ) Arm strength & accuracy Mays is clearly superior. (There was no need for a cutoff man with Mays. Durocher told Mays that he was his own cutoff man)
Mays had an unparalleled on field game awareness & understanding. Some have described Mays' on field knowledge as that of a genius. If Mantle was never injured he would never have performed at the level of Mays in all these areas. If Mays had not lost two seasons in his prime serving his country in the Army, he most certainly would have broken Ruth's career HR record. Finally, it is widely accepted that the greatness of Mays defied statistics.
For these and many other reasons almost all pundits consider Mays to be the GOAT all around player. Mays was the greatest.
Happy 90th Birthday, Mr. Mays.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 6, 2021 20:49:33 GMT -5
Looking at the #1 key metric of "OPS", Mantle was clearly superior to Mays because he had such an advantage in on base percentage while they had, strangely, the same slugging average.
OBP
Mantle .421
Mays ,384
Slugging
Mantle .557
Mays .557
OPS
Mantle .977= #11 all time --- if you adjust for ballpark & league average, Mickey rises to # 7
Mays= .941 = #26 all time--- if you adjust Willie rises to a tie for #19
We could look at many other factors and hopefully enjoy a robust debate about these two all-time greats. One stat not to overlook: Mays hit into more than twice as many double plays-rally killers- 251 versus 113 for Mantle.
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Post by hchoops on May 6, 2021 21:26:12 GMT -5
WAR—pretty important stat
Mays—155.9
Mantle—109.6
Average - 7.1- 6.1
Best 7 WAR seasons—73.7- 64.7
My point is that Mays was excellent for far more years than Mantle
Even if .Mantle was a better hitter (in fewer seasons), Mays’ base running(steals are not close—338-153) and fielding (12 -1 Golden Gloves) put him ahead.
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Post by mm67 on May 6, 2021 22:18:12 GMT -5
OBP includes walks. Mantle had many more walks than Mays and many more strikeouts as well. No doubt Mantle was a great player on those fabulous Yankees teams. I can understand the reason so many fans especially in NY idolized him.
The statistics above solely compare hitting records and only in a partial way. In determining which player was best we would by definition look at the all around performance of the players.
In total Mantle did not come close to Mays. Willie was by far the better all around player. Mantle is never mentioned in discussions of greatest all around player whereas Mays is universally acclaimed. In various polls of all time greats Mays is always 1-2-3, whereas Mantle is around 10th +. Mays is simply on another ,higher level. And, this in no way detracts from Mantle's greatness. He was fabulous, a joy to watch at the plate.
In the 1950's there were three great, legendary centerfielders in NY - Willie, Mickey & The Duke of Flatbush. There were unending arguments as to which one was best. Those were great days.
As a Giants fan I "hated" the Dodgers & desperately wanted to beat them but I truly admired and liked their players (except for Scoonge). Those were great Dodgers teams but if my memory is correct they lacked depth in pitching. The Dodgers inspired a unique love & devotion among their fanatical fans. The Giants had some good teams but a dwindling fan base. (Says it all.) The Yankees hated by many both in & outside of NYC were the Lords of Baseball above all others. Dispassionate, corporate Yankees baseball whose support was based on their ability to win. Those were great days.
We lost a lot when the Dodgers & Giants left NY thanks to Robert Moses, Walter Omalley & the incompetent Horace Stoneham.
Those were great days. Peace.
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Post by longsuffering on May 8, 2021 0:01:02 GMT -5
Mays vs. Mantle? No contest. Certainly Mantle was a great player but nowhere near the level of Mays in all phases of the game. Hit , hit with power, field, run & throw. In the biography pf Mays "24" (written with John Shea} there is a statistical comparison which clearly shows Mays had superior hitting skills in most metrics. No doubt,Mantle was superior at bunting.Some power numbers but not all slightly favored Mantle. Strike Outs? Walks favored Mantle. On a yearly basis Mays was more consistent over the course of his career. Mantle was fast (especially sprinting from home plate to first base) but he could not run the bases ( involves more tha speed/ stealing) at the level of Mays. Mays could exert control of the game on the base paths in a way Mantle never equaled..(Jackie was the best) Mantle was a fine outfielder but in no way was he comparable to Mays. Mays covered the outfield. (Especially in the days of injured Monte Irvin and slow Don Mueller ) Arm strength & accuracy Mays is clearly superior. (There was no need for a cutoff man with Mays. Durocher told Mays that he was his own cutoff man) Mays had an unparalleled on field game awareness & understanding. Some have described Mays' on field knowledge as that of a genius. If Mantle was never injured he would never have performed at the level of Mays in all these areas. If Mays had not lost two seasons in his prime serving his country in the Army, he most certainly would have broken Ruth's career HR record. Finally, it is widely accepted that the greatness of Mays defied statistics. For these and many other reasons almost all pundits consider Mays to be the GOAT all around player. Mays was the greatest. Happy 90th Birthday, Mr. Mays. Wasn't Joe DiMaggio considered the all around Goat? |
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Post by hchoops on May 8, 2021 8:45:54 GMT -5
Only by Marilyn Monroe
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Post by Tom on May 8, 2021 8:49:54 GMT -5
Mays vs. Mantle? No contest. Certainly Mantle was a great player but nowhere near the level of Mays in all phases of the game. Hit , hit with power, field, run & throw. In the biography pf Mays "24" (written with John Shea} there is a statistical comparison which clearly shows Mays had superior hitting skills in most metrics. No doubt,Mantle was superior at bunting.Some power numbers but not all slightly favored Mantle. Strike Outs? Walks favored Mantle. On a yearly basis Mays was more consistent over the course of his career. Mantle was fast (especially sprinting from home plate to first base) but he could not run the bases ( involves more tha speed/ stealing) at the level of Mays. Mays could exert control of the game on the base paths in a way Mantle never equaled..(Jackie was the best) Mantle was a fine outfielder but in no way was he comparable to Mays. Mays covered the outfield. (Especially in the days of injured Monte Irvin and slow Don Mueller ) Arm strength & accuracy Mays is clearly superior. (There was no need for a cutoff man with Mays. Durocher told Mays that he was his own cutoff man) Mays had an unparalleled on field game awareness & understanding. Some have described Mays' on field knowledge as that of a genius. If Mantle was never injured he would never have performed at the level of Mays in all these areas. If Mays had not lost two seasons in his prime serving his country in the Army, he most certainly would have broken Ruth's career HR record. Finally, it is widely accepted that the greatness of Mays defied statistics. For these and many other reasons almost all pundits consider Mays to be the GOAT all around player. Mays was the greatest. Happy 90th Birthday, Mr. Mays. Wasn't Joe DiMaggio considered the all around Goat? Most older Yankee fans say DiMaggio. Most older non Yankee fans say Mays |
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Post by hchoops on May 8, 2021 9:02:55 GMT -5
Very old and many younger Yankee fans said Ruth
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 8, 2021 11:24:40 GMT -5
In my opinion, there should be no debate about Babe Ruth being, by far, the greatest baseball player who ever lived. I don't see anyone coming close to him. On top of being the modt productive batter ever he was a tremendous pitcher. I think the Yankees made a mistake in not pitching him once a week.
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Post by rgs318 on May 8, 2021 11:58:59 GMT -5
I agree about his pitching. Young folks seem to not know what an outstanding pitcher the Babe was. That puts him in a separate category for me.
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Post by hchoops on May 8, 2021 14:08:03 GMT -5
In my opinion, there should be no debate about Babe Ruth being, by far, the greatest baseball player who ever lived. I don't see anyone coming close to him. On top of being the modt productive batter ever he was a tremendous pitcher. I think the Yankees made a mistake in not pitching him once a week. No doubt about the hitting, and the pitching certainly adds to his unique talent. But since fielding and base running are also key elements of being the best player, Willie does provide at least some debate. |
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Post by mm67 on May 8, 2021 19:55:50 GMT -5
IMHO Babe's greatness transcended the game. One could say the same about Jackie Robinson.
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Post by alum on May 8, 2021 20:02:03 GMT -5
In my opinion, there should be no debate about Babe Ruth being, by far, the greatest baseball player who ever lived. I don't see anyone coming close to him. On top of being the modt productive batter ever he was a tremendous pitcher. I think the Yankees made a mistake in not pitching him once a week. It’s not even close. |
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Post by possum on May 9, 2021 6:45:03 GMT -5
Agree Ruth easily greatest of all time, a superstar as a hitter and pitcher.
Surprised no mention of Hammerin Hank, has better numbers offensively than Mays in most offensive categories and while not as flashy was an above average fielder and base runner. I was always under the impression that during their prime years Mays had better numbers but that's not the case Aaron outhomered Mays before and after age 35. It's also interesting to see the change in hitting philosophy with the modern day strikeout epidemic while Aaron averaged more walks than strikeouts over his career and Mays was close to even.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 9, 2021 20:11:50 GMT -5
What a shame that a San Francisco politician, in attempting to honor Willie Mays, sent out a tweet with a photo of Willie McCovey
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