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Post by hchoops on Aug 14, 2021 16:36:03 GMT -5
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Post by sader1970 on Aug 14, 2021 17:15:30 GMT -5
On another thread, I posted how Tom Gilmore going to UPenn thought he had been admitted to Penn State. Guess Tom wasn't the only person confused. From hoops' referenced article:
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Post by Crucis#1 on Aug 14, 2021 18:07:26 GMT -5
Surprised to see a typo in the first paragraph in the Daily Pennsylvania. It hit me smack dab immediately when I opened the link.
“Alan Cotler & Robert Litan | The Ivy League must allow full merit and athletic scholarships Guest Column | By allowing full merit and atheltic scholarships, Penn — and the other Ivy League schools — can be competitive with other institutions in athletics as well as other disciplines.”
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Post by timholycross on Aug 14, 2021 18:53:45 GMT -5
The authors don't seem to realize that the world of college basketball since 1970 has, to understate it considerably, changed?
I can't see the Ivies changing their culture that much. Adding athletic scholarships doesn't do that.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Aug 14, 2021 20:13:27 GMT -5
The Ivy football model (need-based academic aid in lieu of scholarships) is down to just nine schools. But they could certainly afford to offer grants in aid if they chose.
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Post by hcpride on Aug 14, 2021 20:30:16 GMT -5
I'd guess the bulk of hoops and football players at HYP are paying zero to attend (given the financial aid formula) so I don't see (unnecessary) athletic schollies happening there. I can't speak to the financial aid practices of the other Ivies.
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 14, 2021 22:41:03 GMT -5
The Ivies have the best of both worlds. Scholarships wouldn't alleviate the main ceiling on their recruiting - their high academic admissions standards.
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Post by hc6774 on Aug 15, 2021 6:13:11 GMT -5
What would be the impact of 1 fball & 1 bball scholarship per year on PL programs?
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wstruz71
Climbing Mt. St. James
Posts: 82
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Post by wstruz71 on Aug 15, 2021 9:04:10 GMT -5
On another thread, I posted how Tom Gilmore going to UPenn thought he had been admitted to Penn State. Guess Tom wasn't the only person confused. From hoops' referenced article: When I was a graduate student at Princeton, Penn was alluded to as the State University in Philadelphia.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Aug 15, 2021 9:26:42 GMT -5
What makes the Ivies less than competitive is not financial aid, but the Academic Index. Merit scollies won't help get an athlete into the IL who doesn't have a good AI score.
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Post by hcpride on Aug 15, 2021 9:38:30 GMT -5
What makes the Ivies less than competitive is not financial aid, but the Academic Index. Merit scollies won't help get an athlete into the IL who doesn't have a good AI score. Yes. And one has to remember that the Ivies are national powers in MANY sports and successfully recruit national and world class talent in those sports. Without merit schollies. The Ivy Academic Index - for certain other sports - is the limiting factor. And the Ivy League and its fans are generally supportive of this tradeoff.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Aug 15, 2021 9:41:34 GMT -5
The Ivies have now a great strategy that continues to enhance their brand's appeal to their target consumers. They have growing applications and endowments. I don't see why they would want to change strategy at this point.
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Post by hc87 on Aug 15, 2021 10:00:05 GMT -5
This article reads like me pining for the Big East here frankly Not an expert on the situation, but it is my belief that Ivy football anyway has the best of both worlds now being "non-scholly." They are able to offer generous financial aid without the restrictions (# of schollies, rostah sizes etc) that schollie programs have to abide by. When I was at the Cross, I know we routinely were able to get guys for football that were offered by Ivies....due mainly to our ability to offer a full scholarship. That advantage we had has mostly gone by the wayside due to the Ivies (particularly HYP) upping their financial aid packages today for prospective football players. I also remembah reading/hearing about how when UPenn improbably made the Final 4 in '78-'79, they were selling Penn St merch at the Final 4 venue
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 15, 2021 10:34:24 GMT -5
This article reads like me pining for the Big East here frankly Not an expert on the situation, but it is my belief that Ivy football anyway has the best of both worlds now being "non-scholly." They are able to offer generous financial aid without the restrictions (# of schollies, rostah sizes etc) that schollie programs have to abide by. When I was at the Cross, I know we routinely were able to get guys for football that were offered by Ivies....due mainly to our ability to offer a full scholarship. That advantage we had has mostly gone by the wayside due to the Ivies (particularly HYP) upping their financial aid packages today for prospective football players. I also remembah reading/hearing about how when UPenn improbably made the Final 4 in '78-'79, they were selling Penn St merch at the Final 4 venue On another thread we have been discussing Northeastern University's rise up the selectivity rankings. I have been loosely following the current saga of all women's Mills College in Oakland, CA. which announced it would become a Northeastern University campus to remain open but that means it would become co-ed. The case is tied up in court with alumni opposing the move and I have googled Mills College periodically to follow the story. I would say two or three times at least, legitimate news outlets have written stories saying the proposed merger is with Northwestern University in Chicago. Perhaps if the proposed merger really was with Northwestern the alumni wouldn't have filed suit.
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Post by hcpride on Aug 15, 2021 11:19:39 GMT -5
This article reads like me pining for the Big East here frankly Not an expert on the situation, but it is my belief that Ivy football anyway has the best of both worlds now being "non-scholly." They are able to offer generous financial aid without the restrictions (# of schollies, rostah sizes etc) that schollie programs have to abide by. When I was at the Cross, I know we routinely were able to get guys for football that were offered by Ivies....due mainly to our ability to offer a full scholarship. That advantage we had has mostly gone by the wayside due to the Ivies (particularly HYP) upping their financial aid packages today for prospective football players.[br I agree completely regarding our former ability to regularly win kids offered at the Ivies due to full schollie v relatively meager grant in aid. Just one very minor clarification, the newer generous financial aid at HYP is offered to ALL qualifying students (not just athletes). Different world.
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 15, 2021 13:56:59 GMT -5
This article reads like me pining for the Big East here frankly Not an expert on the situation, but it is my belief that Ivy football anyway has the best of both worlds now being "non-scholly." They are able to offer generous financial aid without the restrictions (# of schollies, rostah sizes etc) that schollie programs have to abide by. When I was at the Cross, I know we routinely were able to get guys for football that were offered by Ivies....due mainly to our ability to offer a full scholarship. That advantage we had has mostly gone by the wayside due to the Ivies (particularly HYP) upping their financial aid packages today for prospective football players.[br I agree completely regarding our former ability to regularly win kids offered at the Ivies due to full schollie v relatively meager grant in aid. Just one very minor clarification, the newer generous financial aid at HYP is offered to ALL qualifying students (not just athletes). Different world. And that's why HYP coaches have a more tenuous hold on their players, ie: Katie Benzan.
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Post by hcpride on Aug 15, 2021 15:49:30 GMT -5
I agree completely regarding our former ability to regularly win kids offered at the Ivies due to full schollie v relatively meager grant in aid. Just one very minor clarification, the newer generous financial aid at HYP is offered to ALL qualifying students (not just athletes). Different world. And that's why HYP coaches have a more tenuous hold on their players, ie: Katie Benzan. Yes. Quite common for seniors at HYP not to play (especially the minor sports and especially women). Prepping for grad school, relaxing, sick of the grind, etc. (I know Katie’s was for a different reason.) As a matter of fact, a good number of girls switch sports (which I found surprising at first). Lots of options for the kids when they are not on schollie.
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 15, 2021 16:01:45 GMT -5
Katie's journey has worked out beautifully with the extra Covid year. I never criticize any student athlete who makes full use of the portal which was designed for them to use or not as they see fit. Any opportunity afforded by the portal was earned by the athlete's skill and production. It's not an entitlement.
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Post by timholycross on Aug 15, 2021 17:27:29 GMT -5
I'd expect quite a few Ivy athletes have taken/will take advantage of the year they didn't play to graduate and move on to a free grad school elsewhere where they now have TWO seasons to play their sport.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Aug 15, 2021 21:18:21 GMT -5
And one has to remember that the Ivies are national powers in MANY sports and successfully recruit national and world class talent in those sports. Without merit schollies. The Ivy Academic Index - for certain other sports - is the limiting factor. And the Ivy League and its fans are generally supportive of this tradeoff. What sports are the MANY in which you describe? The Ivies are real good in squash and rowing. But most schools in major college athletics would dominate them in nearly every other sport. The Academic Index is at best an impediment to admission and worst case, de facto discrimination.
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Post by hc87 on Aug 15, 2021 22:31:20 GMT -5
Outside of football and men's basketball (and baseball and maybe a couple others), I think the Ivies are pretty competive in most sports nationally....
DFW is frustrated, and rightly so, in GTown's ineptitude at football.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Aug 15, 2021 22:50:57 GMT -5
Outside of football and men's basketball (and baseball and maybe a couple others), I think the Ivies are pretty competive in most sports nationally.... DFW is frustrated, and rightly so, in GTown's ineptitude at football. My opinions on football to not correlate to the Ivy League. But I do hold the need for a conference office to tell member schools who to admit (and who not to) as a usurpation of power.
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 15, 2021 23:18:27 GMT -5
Outside of football and men's basketball (and baseball and maybe a couple others), I think the Ivies are pretty competive in most sports nationally.... DFW is frustrated, and rightly so, in GTown's ineptitude at football. My opinions on football to not correlate to the Ivy League. But I do hold the need for a conference office to tell member schools who to admit (and who not to) as a usurpation of power. Power to the people, right on! -John Lennon
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Post by hcpride on Aug 16, 2021 4:48:20 GMT -5
And one has to remember that the Ivies are national powers in MANY sports and successfully recruit national and world class talent in those sports. Without merit schollies. The Ivy Academic Index - for certain other sports - is the limiting factor. And the Ivy League and its fans are generally supportive of this tradeoff. What sports are the MANY in which you describe? The Ivies are real good in squash and rowing. But most schools in major college athletics would dominate them in nearly every other sport. Gotta look beyond football, baseball, basketball (as I alluded to in my comment). Harvard, for example, has 40 varsity teams. I have some familiarity with the level of recruits for HYP. Brief example from Yale noting a few teams during the season just prior to the pandemic: yalebulldogs.com/news/2020/1/24/general-yale-boasts-13-programs-in-national-polls.aspx
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Post by DFW HOYA on Aug 16, 2021 10:24:31 GMT -5
Thanks for the follow-up on this--I was doing a search on Ivy participation in NCAA championship events since 1970 but this list proved the point as well as any. The Yale list isn't the "country club" sports, it's the "Hamptons" sports: rowing, sailing, squash, fencing...sports with little or no participation outside of mostly Northeastern, high income communities. How many schools have a squash team to begin with? By contrast, the Ivies have next to no post-season record since 1970 in sports such as baseball, soccer, track, volleyball, swimming, even tennis or golf. By contrast, Stanford is good at all of these.
Scholarships cloud the larger issue. If the Ivy League attracted the best track coaches, the best tennis coaches, etc., recruits would come. If the Ivy league had some of the best facilities in the world for Olympic hopefuls, people would come. But because they don't, and the entry into those sports is not through them, there's too many good places to go to be successful.
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