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Post by Tom on Dec 20, 2021 9:17:41 GMT -5
I would say that Gates is an experienced D-I player. Also DJ Hart, but practically speaking you can't expect a lot of game contribution from the a walk on
Dorsey, who played sparingly last year and this does have a full season of D-I hoops under his belt.
After that, Montgomery, Johnson, Humphrey, Townsel, Rabinovich, and Martindale have 28 games on a D-I team under the belt - ignoring injuries and DNP. Getting darn close to a full season's number of games. They're like freshmen heading into the tournament
That leaves Luc, Lewis, and Kenny almost half way through their freshmen year..
NAD pointed out on the Harvard game thread, that successful mid and low major teams have a solid core of juniors and seniors. I agree with that assessment. Gates alone does not constitute a solid core. Townsel is a senior, but, as far as D-I hoops goes, he's on that freshman/sophomore line with many of his teammates.
I think back to that 2005 NIT team. Sophomores Thomas and Simmons might have been the stars of the team. But junior Hamilton was right there and a senior class of Hurley, Smiley, Kinsey, and Lufkin that had no stars but was a solid core.
In answer to the question, I will call this squad inexperienced all year. I do not anticipate throwing that term around next year
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 20, 2021 9:38:33 GMT -5
I can't say anything nice here, so in the spirit of Christmas and in memory of my late mother, I won't say anything at all.
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Post by timholycross on Dec 20, 2021 10:37:39 GMT -5
I would say that Gates is an experienced D-I player. Also DJ Hart, but practically speaking you can't expect a lot of game contribution from the a walk on Dorsey, who played sparingly last year and this does have a full season of D-I hoops under his belt. After that, Montgomery, Johnson, Humphrey, Townsel, Rabinovich, and Martindale have 28 games on a D-I team under the belt - ignoring injuries and DNP. Getting darn close to a full season's number of games. They're like freshmen heading into the tournament That leaves Luc, Lewis, and Kenny almost half way through their freshmen year.. NAD pointed out on the Harvard game thread, that successful mid and low major teams have a solid core of juniors and seniors. I agree with that assessment. Gates alone does not constitute a solid core. Townsel is a senior, but, as far as D-I hoops goes, he's on that freshman/sophomore line with many of his teammates. I think back to that 2005 NIT team. Sophomores Thomas and Simmons might have been the stars of the team. But junior Hamilton was right there and a senior class of Hurley, Smiley, Kinsey, and Lufkin that had no stars but was a solid core. In answer to the question, I will call this squad inexperienced all year. I do not anticipate throwing that term around next year Put it this way, in a year "experience" won't be an excuse. If it is due to another set of departures, I don't want this staff leading the charge.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 20, 2021 10:38:44 GMT -5
Do players need a year or two or three of experience before they are ready to be taught an offense or defense?
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Dec 20, 2021 11:51:01 GMT -5
Now you're veering off towards coaching, KY.
One other factor in regards to experience: another advantage successful, experienced programs have is the cultivation of a "big brother" program, where the upperclassmen take the younger guys under their wings. IMHO that is a huge factor in continued success. Think RJJ might benefit from caddying for Jave Meade? Or Luth and Rabs having a Pat Whearty as a big brother? I remember hearing a former Crusader telling a bunch of us how part of the growing up process was getting the crap kicked out of him at practice every day (paraphrasing here, of course). I sometimes wonder if CBN took that into account when building the roster.
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Post by crusader1970 on Dec 20, 2021 12:15:38 GMT -5
I can't say anything nice here, so in the spirit of Christmas and in memory of my late mother, I won't say anything at all. Such a nice sentiment at this time of year.
I think my late mother would say the following about our current basketball program:
"Anyone who can keep his head when all others around him are losing theirs.....simply does not understand the situation!"
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 20, 2021 12:24:16 GMT -5
NAD pointed out on the Harvard game thread, that successful mid and low major teams have a solid core of juniors and seniors. I agree with that assessment. Experience is definitely important at the level in which we play. HOFRW said "You win with juniors and seniors in the Patriot League." So, I'll buy that being a very young team is contributing to having zero success. However, I'll also posit that if this team has as much talent as a couple posters have said, Nelson would have figured out a way to have won a few games against a very weak non-conference schedule. Central Connecticut is #320 in experience, yet they largely handled HC. Air Force has less experience than HC and toyed with us. HC have been blown out by Bryant, Air Force, La Salle, and Siena -- all of which are ranked low (Bryant has the best ranking of these four at #236). I don't buy that when the sophomores become juniors Nelson is going to just figure this thing out. We are showing no signs right now of heading in the right direction.
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Post by gks on Dec 20, 2021 12:27:18 GMT -5
There is little to no talent on this team. At least not enough to be competitive.
Experience is a moot argument.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Dec 20, 2021 12:51:39 GMT -5
So if Ralph Willard took over prior to last year, would the team have the same performance level as they do now? I tend to doubt it; I think they would be very competitive.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Dec 20, 2021 12:55:21 GMT -5
I'm not saying they would have many more wins either, because I do think experience matters. But they would be a lot more competitive than they have been to date.
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Post by gks on Dec 20, 2021 13:19:39 GMT -5
So with Ralph they win what 8 games?
Ralph's teams were very talented. There is NO comparison to the current team.
All you have to do is an eye test.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 20, 2021 14:20:04 GMT -5
I think Ralph had quite a few players who were not strong talents
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Post by mm67 on Dec 20, 2021 14:42:30 GMT -5
Doesn't the doing in actual games count just as much & possibly more than the teaching? Obviously, teaching takes place not just during practice but during the game, too, in timeouts, half time and additionally in post game film study and coaching. But, there is no substitute for game experience for a a team to play as a unit - five fingers of a hand ( The late great John Wooden's description of the Walt Hazzard, Gail Goodrich NCAA championship team as told in many sports accounts . Wooden's first championship team after many years coaching.)
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Dec 20, 2021 15:50:30 GMT -5
I'm glad we didn't assign Jehyve Floyd a final grade after his freshman year. Did not compare to what he became as an upperclassman. Same with Billy Walker and Roger Breslin; I'm sure there are others.
I think it's interesting to look at RW's first HC team. With pretty much the entire squad for his first game (a team with some experience), they knock off Providence. Then the players started dropping off with injuries, and he couldn't win much with Josh Sankes surrounded by a bunch of freshmen/walk-ons. But they were competitive most of the time (and Tim Szatko and Brian Wilson were 2 other guys that ended up being a lot better than what they showed as frosh, although they gave it their best). We know what happened after that.
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Post by crusader1970 on Dec 20, 2021 15:56:07 GMT -5
So if Ralph Willard took over prior to last year, would the team have the same performance level as they do now? I tend to doubt it; I think they would be very competitive. If you took a poll of CROSSPORTS posters, I think 98% of them would agree with you.
The players are giving a huge effort every game. They simply are not getting the coaching they need to improve their games and make, as RW would say, "a whole that is better than the sum of the parts."
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Post by trimster on Dec 20, 2021 16:18:26 GMT -5
So if Ralph Willard took over prior to last year, would the team have the same performance level as they do now? I tend to doubt it; I think they would be very competitive. I think they would look like a much more cohesive unit.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 20, 2021 16:19:23 GMT -5
I'm glad we didn't assign Jehyve Floyd a final grade after his freshman year. Did not compare to what he became as an upperclassman. Same with Billy Walker and Roger Breslin; I'm sure there are others. I think it's interesting to look at RW's first HC team. With pretty much the entire squad for his first game (a team with some experience), they knock off Providence. Then the players started dropping off with injuries, and he couldn't win much with Josh Sankes surrounded by a bunch of freshmen/walk-ons. But they were competitive most of the time (and Tim Szatko and Brian Wilson were 2 other guys that ended up being a lot better than what they showed as frosh, although they gave it their best). We know what happened after that. Great example with Jehyve Floyd. I think this is one of the very rare occasions where your memory fails you--when it comes to Tim Szatko as he was PL rookie of the year.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 20, 2021 16:20:39 GMT -5
I was at that game at the Dunk. It shocked the Friars and their faithful. I also went the following year and Providence knew from that first experience not to look past the Crusaders. We were close and had a shot at another upset but just didn't quite have enough to close the gap at the end. I was upset with a certain player who lollygagged the ball up the court with time running short as I thought the momentum was going our way. It was a 6 point loss and close enough that the Friars didn't want to play us again anytime soon.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 20, 2021 19:56:27 GMT -5
I'm glad we didn't assign Jehyve Floyd a final grade after his freshman year. Did not compare to what he became as an upperclassman. Same with Billy Walker and Roger Breslin; I'm sure there are others.I think it's interesting to look at RW's first HC team. With pretty much the entire squad for his first game (a team with some experience), they knock off Providence. Then the players started dropping off with injuries, and he couldn't win much with Josh Sankes surrounded by a bunch of freshmen/walk-ons. But they were competitive most of the time (and Tim Szatko and Brian Wilson were 2 other guys that ended up being a lot better than what they showed as frosh, although they gave it their best). We know what happened after that. Rob Champion. He looked totally overmatched as a freshman and didn't really start to gain any composure until the very tail end of his sophomore season, IIRC. Obviously, he hit what clearly turned out to be the shot of the decade for Holy Cross.
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Post by timholycross on Dec 20, 2021 20:26:26 GMT -5
I'm glad we didn't assign Jehyve Floyd a final grade after his freshman year. Did not compare to what he became as an upperclassman. Same with Billy Walker and Roger Breslin; I'm sure there are others.I think it's interesting to look at RW's first HC team. With pretty much the entire squad for his first game (a team with some experience), they knock off Providence. Then the players started dropping off with injuries, and he couldn't win much with Josh Sankes surrounded by a bunch of freshmen/walk-ons. But they were competitive most of the time (and Tim Szatko and Brian Wilson were 2 other guys that ended up being a lot better than what they showed as frosh, although they gave it their best). We know what happened after that. Rob Champion. He looked totally overmatched as a freshman and didn't really start to gain any composure until the very tail end of his sophomore season, IIRC. Obviously, he hit what clearly turned out to be the shot of the decade for Holy Cross. You might recall that the last regular season game of that Champion-ship (pun intended) season was at BU. Champion was in sort of a slump and was reluctant to shoot. Carmody ripped into him in front of everybody for not putting the ball up. I wish Nelson would do that with Martindale (perhaps he is, behind closed doors; but it ain't workin' yet)
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 20, 2021 20:31:25 GMT -5
Inexperienced teams can still be talented.
After watching ten games this year, I’m not sure who’s talented besides Luc.
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Post by hchoops on Dec 20, 2021 21:27:23 GMT -5
Rob Champion. He looked totally overmatched as a freshman and didn't really start to gain any composure until the very tail end of his sophomore season, IIRC. Obviously, he hit what clearly turned out to be the shot of the decade for Holy Cross. You might recall that the last regular season game of that Champion-ship (pun intended) season was at BU. Champion was in sort of a slump and was reluctant to shoot. Carmody ripped into him in front of everybody for not putting the ball up. I wish Nelson would do that with Martindale (perhaps he is, behind closed doors; but it ain't workin' yet) Carmody’s offense got Champion open 3s.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Dec 21, 2021 6:13:05 GMT -5
I'm glad we didn't assign Jehyve Floyd a final grade after his freshman year. Did not compare to what he became as an upperclassman. Same with Billy Walker and Roger Breslin; I'm sure there are others. I think it's interesting to look at RW's first HC team. With pretty much the entire squad for his first game (a team with some experience), they knock off Providence. Then the players started dropping off with injuries, and he couldn't win much with Josh Sankes surrounded by a bunch of freshmen/walk-ons. But they were competitive most of the time (and Tim Szatko and Brian Wilson were 2 other guys that ended up being a lot better than what they showed as frosh, although they gave it their best). We know what happened after that. Great example with Jehyve Floyd. I think this is one of the very rare occasions where your memory fails you--when it comes to Tim Szatko as he was PL rookie of the year. Oh, you're always having to point out every little inaccuracy....... . Yes, he showed a lot of progress from the very beginning. Just for kicks (and to take a break from work), I decided to go back and check Verbal Commits for the offers for the frosh-sophs. I am well aware that this site isn't always totally inclusive or accurate; I also realize that old offers sometimes get pulled when another recruit commits. Just trying to review the general interest that was out there when our guys were being recruited. Judson Martindale - Gardner Webb, Vermont, Bucknell, American, Fairleigh Dickinson, The Q, Cal Poly, UNC Greensboro, BU, St. Francis Brooklyn, Manhattan, South Dakota, Cleveland State, Bryant, Brown, Iona Michael Rabinovich - UNH, Hartford, UMBC, Sacred Heart, Lehigh, American, BU, Brown RJ Johnson - none reported Bo Montgomery - SIU Edwardsville, Campbell, Howard Louth M. Coulibaly - BU, Youngstown State, Delaware State, South Dakota, UMKC Bubba Humphrey - Lafayette, Brown, Sam Houston State, Kent State, Cleveland State Austin Lewis - Youngstown State, Air Force Caleb Kenney - Lees McRae, North Florida, Fairmont State, Millersville, Sam Houston State, Morgan State, Hampton, IUPUI, The Citadel Kyrelle Luc - Merrimack, BU, Fairleigh Dickinson, Towson, American, Cleveland State, Fairfield, Milwaukee Nolan Dorsey - New Mexico, Salem, Western Carolina, Appalachian State, UT Martin, Stetson, The Mount, Campbell, American, Air Force, Rider, Niagara, Navy, High Point FWIW
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 21, 2021 8:11:01 GMT -5
Thanks, Dave. Those offers certainly look good on paper.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 21, 2021 8:58:08 GMT -5
Brown wanted three of our guys. Curious who ultimately said no to who, our guys or Brown. Also, I'm sure it's been covered in the recruiting threads, but this list makes it look like RJ was found under a rock somewhere. Why were we the only offer for someone good enough to start as a Freshman?
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