|
Post by mm67 on May 27, 2022 8:23:05 GMT -5
Could it be that Old Mamie Reilly & the Alma Mater are two different issues? Mamie Reilly is a Stephen Foster minstrel song.It is a catchy 19th c tune. Also, its lyrics truly have little to do with HC today. Might best is a good time to quietly with little fanfare put Mamie to rest, sort of a mercy killing. On the other hand the Alma Mater has its roots in the German O Christmas Tree. Unfortunately, the rebs in Maryland coopted the melody. Maryland wisely dropped it due to its ties between Maryland & the Confederacy.(Obviously, Maryland was a Union state but it had slave owning confederate sympathizers such as Roger Taney on its Eastern shore.) The melody is more widely associated with Christmas rather than the Confederacy HC has no such association with the Confederacy & could easily keep the tune. Are there other colleges which use O Tannenbaum? TBT Alma Mater is derivative and as such, I find it a bit tedious.. Of course I reverentially stand and that's about it for me. On the other hand Cornell's Alma Mater which is a modified offshoot is terrific in my view. I doubt in today's climateif there would be any interest in changing Alma Mater. It is part of the school's history but it is a relic of the past.
|
|
|
Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on May 27, 2022 8:26:52 GMT -5
Let’s ban everything and be perpetually offended.
|
|
|
Post by WCHC Sports on May 27, 2022 8:31:37 GMT -5
I always thought the tune being "O Christmas Tree, O Christmas Tree" was quite strange. I've never been taught the lyrics, nor could I venture a guess that even 2% of my class know the lyrics. I love the tune of Mamie Reilly, having heard it numerous times at sporting events and played by the band. Nobody really sings it, but when I read them, I agree that the current lyrics essentially make no sense. I always felt that they probably meant a lot more to the Irish, pub-drinking, semi-nonsensical and antiquated undercurrent of ancient HC culture. As an Italian kid from NY, I chalked it up to the weird, white bread history of old US colleges.
It is sad, but with the lack of strong attendance at many of our sporting events (outside of Football, and only recently rekindled due to the success of the team), and the lack of a band most of the time, the musical numbers are probably not as significant as the well-known Alma Maters or fight songs of other massive sports schools (ND, Alabama) or the academies like Army and Navy.
The more significant and visible target one was the one that was printed on shirts, cufflinks, ties, hats, sweatshirts, jerseys, and our courts/fields: the knight on a horse. Because that knight rode through the moors and fields and deserts killing innocent Arabs 920 years ago, we obviously cannot dare to put him on our apparel. At that point, might as well stop the music too.
|
|
|
Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 27, 2022 8:49:52 GMT -5
Fight songs or other songs become associated with a team in various ways and I don’t think it matters if the lyrics are relevant when taken at face value. For example, Sweet Caroline was written and sung by a man from Brooklyn who likely grew up as a Dodgers fan (born in 41) and maybe transitioned to the Yankees or Mets, but isn’t that song now a legitimate part of the Red Sox heritage and game day experience? Should it be cancelled because the lyrics are not relevant to a baseball game in Boston? Mamie Reilly has a much longer heritage with Holy Cross and to me it doesn’t matter that the school is not associated with Ernest Thayer’s Classic poem, with baseball HOFer Mike “King” Kelly, or with the great Commonwealth of Kentucky. The song should be played by our band at every game here on out
|
|
|
Post by WCHC Sports on May 27, 2022 9:04:17 GMT -5
Fight songs or other songs become associated with a team in various ways and I don’t think it matters if the lyrics are relevant when taken at face value. For example, Sweet Caroline was written and sung by a man from Brooklyn who likely grew up as a Dodgers fan (born in 41) and maybe transitioned to the Yankees or Mets, but isn’t that song now a legitimate part of the Red Sox heritage and game day experience? Should it be cancelled because the lyrics are not relevant to a baseball game in Boston? It should be cancelled because the song sucks.
[... and it's also a Red Sox song now]
|
|
|
Post by WCHC Sports on May 27, 2022 9:04:44 GMT -5
Mamie Reilly has a much longer heritage with Holy Cross and to me it doesn’t matter that the school is not associated with Ernest Thayer’s Classic poem, with baseball HOFer Mike “King” Kelly, or with the great Commonwealth of Kentucky. The song should be played by our band at every game here on out I always considered that our primary fight song, imho.
|
|
|
Post by Sons of Vaval on May 27, 2022 9:38:47 GMT -5
Mamie Reilly has a much longer heritage with Holy Cross and to me it doesn’t matter that the school is not associated with Ernest Thayer’s Classic poem, with baseball HOFer Mike “King” Kelly, or with the great Commonwealth of Kentucky. The song should be played by our band at every game here on out I always considered that our primary fight song, imho. More than Chu Chu Rah Rah? I always felt like that was the fight song. Maybe 8485 or HC16 can advise.
|
|
|
Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 27, 2022 9:40:12 GMT -5
There are four songs with the same general melody, which antedate the alma mater.
The original: Lauriger Horatius, a 16th Century German student song in Latin about courtship, love, eating, and drinking.
The derivatives, in order.
O Tannenbaum. Modern lyrics written in 1824. This German song does not refer to a Christmas tree, rather to a fir tree. Think of it as an ode to a fir tree.
O Maryland, My Maryland. Lyrics based on a poem by James Ryder Randall, written in 1861. Randall was named after the 20th President of Georgetown University, James Ryder S.J. Randall attended Georgetown, and wrote the poem after his good friend Francis Xavier Ward, was killed in Baltimore at the very beginning of the Civil War by the 6th Massachusetts Militia. The poem was set to the melody or Lauriger Horatius by Jennie Cary, sister of Hetty Cary. Hetty Cary was the wife of Gen. John Pegram, CSA. killed near the end of the war. Hetty Cary, Jennie Cary, and a cousin sewed the first three battle flags of the Confederacy, at the director of Gen Beauregard, after the First Battle of Bull Run. Randall is sometimes called the poet laureate of the Confederacy.
The Red Flag. Written in 1889 by an Irishman living in London, a political activist, socialist, and Irish republican seeking independence from Britain. The song was immediately popular, becoming the anthem, even today, of socialists and communists worldwide.
The alumnus of Holy Cross who wrote the alma mater in 1903, wrote the lyrics to the melody of The Red Flag, the song being sung by striking coal miners near his home in Wilkes Bare PA in the months following his graduation from Holy Cross in 1902.
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on May 27, 2022 9:47:36 GMT -5
The usual good and meandering discussion that we will no-doubt beat the topic to death. So, let me be the one to ask Phreek who started it all: On what basis did you come to the conclusion that the Holy Cross alma mater's future is in danger? Just because Maryland is "retiring" their song doesn't follow that HC will. The words, not the tune might be their reason. I had an HC classmate/co-worker who used to joke that I was a "sh1t-stirrer" in the company [which I took as a compliment ]. Are you gunning for that title for Crossports, Phreek?
|
|
|
Post by HC13 on May 27, 2022 9:51:24 GMT -5
The usual good and meandering discussion that we will no-doubt beat the topic to death. So, let me be the one to ask Phreek who started it all: On what basis did you come to the conclusion that the Holy Cross alma mater's future is in danger? Just because Maryland is "retiring" their song doesn't follow that HC will. The words, not the tune might be their reason. I had an HC classmate/co-worker who used to joke that I was a "sh1t-stirrer" in the company [which I took as a compliment ]. Are you gunning for that title for Crossports, Phreek? I believe he has happily adopted that role!
|
|
|
Post by WCHC Sports on May 27, 2022 9:53:18 GMT -5
I always considered that our primary fight song, imho. More than Chu Chu Rah Rah? I always felt like that was the fight song. Maybe 8485 or HC16 can advise. Fair. Also a great one. Also have no idea what the lyrics are, or what the hell a Chu Chu or Rah Rah or a Hoya is other than guttural "let's go!"-type noises
|
|
|
Post by sader1970 on May 27, 2022 10:15:28 GMT -5
. . . . . and down the Georgetown hoya-saxa rabbit hole we go . . . .
|
|
|
Post by mm67 on May 27, 2022 10:15:51 GMT -5
Pak stated in the first comment that the college is "scrutinizing" other songs. No doubt there will be a kerfuffle on this board if the college stops using a Stephen Foster minstrel tune, Mamie Riley. There will be thunderclap of outrage if the college decides to change the Alma Mater. All kinds of indirect conclusions will be raised, pc, the confederacy, etc. Maybe, the noise will approach the level of the Crusader folly. Might be time to relax, take out the popcorn & watch the show. If I had to guess I would say that the playing of Mamie Riley will be ended with little or no notice. The music & lyrics are simply out of place, today.(Dixie is a catchy tune, too) The boring Alma Mater will in all likelihood stay in place.
|
|
|
Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 27, 2022 10:32:48 GMT -5
The usual good and meandering discussion that we will no-doubt beat the topic to death. So, let me be the one to ask Phreek who started it all: On what basis did you come to the conclusion that the Holy Cross alma mater's future is in danger? Just because Maryland is "retiring" their song doesn't follow that HC will. The words, not the tune might be their reason. I had an HC classmate/co-worker who used to joke that I was a "sh1t-stirrer" in the company [which I took as a compliment ]. Are you gunning for that title for Crossports, Phreek? The College in the commencement program notes drew a derivative association between the alma mater's melody and the melody and lyrics of O Maryland My Maryland, noted that the Maryland dropped the latter as the state song in 2021 because of its association with the Confederacy, etc., and suggested the state song was emblematic with continued racism in the United States. I believe the college erred in associating the alma mater with O Maryland. The correct association is with the The Red Flag anthem. Which opens a different kettle of fish. What the college should do, IMHO, is draw a derivative association with Lauriger Horatius, the original. Ensure that the melody of the alma mater is identical to Lauriger Horatius, and if needed, tweek the phrasing to fit the music and tempo of the original. The original translated from the Latin. LAUREL-CROWNED Horatius, True, how true thy saying! Swift as wind flies over us Time, devouring, slaying. Where are, oh! those goblets full Of wine honey-laden, Strifes and loves and bountiful Lips of ruddy maiden? Grows the young grape tenderly, And the maid is growing; But the thirsty poet, see, Years on him are snowing! What ’s the use on hoary curls Of the bays undying, If we may not kiss the girls, Drink while time ’s a-flying? Horatius is the same name as Horace, so the great Roman poet is being honored by this song. A fitting melody for alma mater!.
|
|
|
Post by rgs318 on May 27, 2022 10:41:09 GMT -5
If I had to guess I would say that the playing of Mamie Riley will be ended with little or no notice. The music & lyrics are simply out of place, today.(Dixie is a catchy tune, too) The boring Alma Mater will in all likelihood stay in place. I always thought of "Give another Hoya and a Chu-Chu Rah-Rah" as the HC fight song - based on when it was played at games. BTW, Dixie was a love song parody written in NYC before the Amercan Civil War. Abraham Lincoln said it was his favorite song (and asked the army name to play it at the White House after Lee surrendered at Appomattox.
|
|
|
Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 27, 2022 10:48:17 GMT -5
The college plans to have a further conversation this fall on several other songs that have their supposed origin in blackface minstrel shows. Emphasis mine, and not in the source text. Perhaps the blackface association is not out of place. The English looked down on the Irish as Negroes. One cartoon below indicates that Negroes were better-mannered than the Irish. thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/10/06/negative-stereotypes-of-the-irish/^^^ After stirring the pot, this might bring it to a full boil.
|
|
|
Post by CHC8485 on May 27, 2022 11:03:37 GMT -5
As to Mamie Reilly - I suspect it was a drinking type song sung by the young lads in the stands way back when that just became part of the tradition/lore As to the Alma Mater - It's a 1600's German folk song that had the "modern" lyrics written in 1824. According to Wikipedia other uses of the melody are many
Holy Cross has had a number of "fight" songs over the years. I have always considered Chu! Chu! Rah! Rah! with The Slogan (March on as Knights of Old ...) tacked on as the HC Fight song.
In he 1940's the student body requested (commissioned ?) band leader Fred Waring (and the Pennsylvanians) to write a new fight song. I can't fond the recording of that anywhere but know it was on the album called Songs of Holy Cross released for the College's 150th Anniversary. Lyrics below and you may see why it was discontinued. I know of at least 2 others that were used perhaps in the 20's & 30's and discontinued.
Here's the current songs in use sung by the HC Choir every Family Weekend. If we decided to change I could see either Linden Lane or the Varsity Song below becoming the Alma Mater
Alma Mater The Slogan Hoiah, Holy Cross! Linden Lane, Varsity Song Mamie Reilly, Chu! Chu!
Here's the Lyrics to the Fred Waring Fight Song firts part is almost spoke...
Here's to a man, a man who's strong and fine Give a Hoiah A Hoiah (sung as if an echo)
Here's to a man Who mans the purple line Give a Hoiah! A Hoiah (sung as if an echo)
Upon his charger White He will fight with the might of the old Crusader.
His glorious unstained shield on the field will not yield to the bold invader
He'll be loyal to the royal purple and white team Every minute he'll be in there with the right team
A Hoiah give a cheer for Holy Cross A Hoiah for dear old Holy Cross.
[Refrain repeated twice] Ho-ly Cross Crusaders Who's greater than the Holy Cross Crusaders Here's a Hoiah Foy Ya So Ya Can't Give in Crusaders Fight to win!
|
|
|
Post by rgs318 on May 27, 2022 11:03:54 GMT -5
The post-war Irish saw freed Blacks as competition for the same jobs. That rivalry caused some hard times between the races. It did not help that noted political cartoonist, Thomas Nast, drew the Irish with many physical similarities to Blacks. The Irish also had issues with Jews. I read (as required HC reading) in The Late George Apley a line in a letter he received from his cousin..."You have your Jews (in NYC) and we have our Irish (in Boston) and we must bear our burdens gracefully."
|
|
|
Post by Non Alum Dave on May 27, 2022 11:30:05 GMT -5
Based on hearing it at most football games I've attended, I just assumed the fight song was "Thunderstruck"......
|
|
|
Post by Tom on May 27, 2022 13:26:10 GMT -5
- This came up a few years ago. Someone on the board suggested "Lift High the Cross" as a replacement. 8485 then dubbed it "the hymn in the gym"
- Has it also been suggested that the Boston Pops remove O Tannenbaum from their Christmas concerts
- I happened to be on the football field a few years ago immediately after a win right near the team's post game huddle. While the band played the Alma Mater, I sang along (aren't you supposed to). Coach Chesney and some of the players were impressed
- I think WAY more people associate the alma mater with O Tannenbaum than with Maryland O Maryland
- I don't think having bad people latch on to something innocuous necessarily means that society needs to abandon it, especially if the two aren't generally associated. When I see the Stars and Bars I think Confederacy. When I hear a certain melody, I think of Holy Cross and Christmas trees. The Confederacy does not come to mind. Maybe non-Crusaders from the state of Maryland associate things differently when they hear that melody
- Next thing they'll be saying we should change the name of the school newspaper because some bad people had a newspaper with the same name, even though no rational person would associate Holy Cross with that loathsome organization
|
|
|
Post by hc87 on May 27, 2022 13:47:59 GMT -5
"All we eat is....apple sauce...."
|
|
|
Post by timholycross on May 27, 2022 13:53:45 GMT -5
Could it be that Old Mamie Reilly & the Alma Mater are two different issues? Mamie Reilly is a Stephen Foster minstrel song.It is a catchy 19th c tune. Also, its lyrics truly have little to do with HC today. Might best is a good time to quietly with little fanfare put Mamie to rest, sort of a mercy killing. On the other hand the Alma Mater has its roots in the German O Christmas Tree. Unfortunately, the rebs in Maryland coopted the melody. Maryland wisely dropped it due to its ties between Maryland & the Confederacy.(Obviously, Maryland was a Union state but it had slave owning confederate sympathizers such as Roger Taney on its Eastern shore.) The melody is more widely associated with Christmas rather than the Confederacy HC has no such association with the Confederacy & could easily keep the tune. Are there other colleges which use O Tannenbaum? TBT Alma Mater is derivative and as such, I find it a bit tedious.. Of course I reverentially stand and that's about it for me. On the other hand Cornell's Alma Mater which is a modified offshoot is terrific in my view. I doubt in today's climateif there would be any interest in changing Alma Mater. It is part of the school's history but it is a relic of the past. As I'm sure I didn't profess clearly enough, mm67, I'm hoping you're right in terms of both songs.
|
|
|
Post by timholycross on May 27, 2022 14:02:09 GMT -5
Fight songs or other songs become associated with a team in various ways and I don’t think it matters if the lyrics are relevant when taken at face value. For example, Sweet Caroline was written and sung by a man from Brooklyn who likely grew up as a Dodgers fan (born in 41) and maybe transitioned to the Yankees or Mets, but isn’t that song now a legitimate part of the Red Sox heritage and game day experience? Should it be cancelled because the lyrics are not relevant to a baseball game in Boston? It should be cancelled because the song sucks.
[... and it's also a Red Sox song now]
That's one thing this Red Sox fan can agree w/a Yankee (I think) fan on! As far as I'm concerned only Red Red Wine and Girl, You'll be a Woman Soon have withstood the test of time. Plus Sweet Caroline's origin was kind of weird- Diamond said he wrote it with Caroline Kennedy in mind; who, at the time, was all of 11 years old.
|
|
|
Post by Tom on May 27, 2022 15:19:00 GMT -5
It should be cancelled because the song sucks.
[... and it's also a Red Sox song now]
That's one thing this Red Sox fan can agree w/a Yankee (I think) fan on! As far as I'm concerned only Red Red Wine and Girl, You'll be a Woman Soon have withstood the test of time. Plus Sweet Caroline's origin was kind of weird- Diamond said he wrote it with Caroline Kennedy in mind; who, at the time, was all of 11 years old. OK - where to begin 1) Possibly closer to creepy than weird 2) I decided Sweet Caroline had to go the day I saw the Sox go up 9-0 on the Yankees after about 3 innings. By the time the bottom of the 8th came around the Sox were down 15-9 (which was the final). People were up dancing, singing along, trying to get on the jumbotron and having a good old time. The Sox had just blown a 9 run lead. No one should have been feeling good and dancing. They should have been irate. A NINE RUN LEAD 3) In 2008, DIamond was invited to opening day at Fenway. He would only appear for his normal fee. While I think the Sox should have covered expenses, this is the last bastion of people that generally care about one of his songs (not including Shrek fans - and in spite of authorship, that 's a Monkees' song), Diamond shouldn't have held out for more money 4) Diamond did show up for the first game (or so) after the marathon bombing in 2013. The vibe he gave that day was not one supporting the city. It felt like it was all about Diamond The song doesn't need to be banned or anything. It can be played in some rotation. It just does not need to be nor should it be a ritual for every single home game Dirty Water will always be more of a Red Sox song than Sweet Caroline
|
|
|
Post by longsuffering on May 27, 2022 15:32:28 GMT -5
I like Tessie by the Dropkick Murphys as a Red Sox song.
|
|