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Post by mm67 on May 28, 2022 22:09:42 GMT -5
As was noted earlier Dixie has an interesting history, The word Dixie refers to the South although its origins nay have been in NY. . Dixie was the song of the Confederacy. It was the Confederate army marching song and was played at various events in the Confederate South. I am not sure of the composer. Thought it was some northerner with southern sympathies. No doubt it is a catchy tune. Lincoln famously liked it but the fact that it was the anthem for the slave-holding confederacy made his opinion more notable. I wonder if any of the southern schools use it, today. Certainly, it is of greater import than Old Black Joe. Peace.
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Post by Crucis#1 on May 28, 2022 23:17:10 GMT -5
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Post by nycrusader2010 on May 29, 2022 2:41:48 GMT -5
That's one thing this Red Sox fan can agree w/a Yankee (I think) fan on! As far as I'm concerned only Red Red Wine and Girl, You'll be a Woman Soon have withstood the test of time. Plus Sweet Caroline's origin was kind of weird- Diamond said he wrote it with Caroline Kennedy in mind; who, at the time, was all of 11 years old. OK - where to begin 1) Possibly closer to creepy than weird 2) I decided Sweet Caroline had to go the day I saw the Sox go up 9-0 on the Yankees after about 3 innings. By the time the bottom of the 8th came around the Sox were down 15-9 (which was the final). People were up dancing, singing along, trying to get on the jumbotron and having a good old time. The Sox had just blown a 9 run lead. No one should have been feeling good and dancing. They should have been irate. A NINE RUN LEAD 3) In 2008, DIamond was invited to opening day at Fenway. He would only appear for his normal fee. While I think the Sox should have covered expenses, this is the last bastion of people that generally care about one of his songs (not including Shrek fans - and in spite of authorship, that 's a Monkees' song), Diamond shouldn't have held out for more money 4) Diamond did show up for the first game (or so) after the marathon bombing in 2013. The vibe he gave that day was not one supporting the city. It felt like it was all about Diamond The song doesn't need to be banned or anything. It can be played in some rotation. It just does not need to be nor should it be a ritual for every single home game Dirty Water will always be more of a Red Sox song than Sweet Caroline I appreciate your perspective
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Post by rgs318 on May 29, 2022 8:19:31 GMT -5
As was noted earlier Dixie has an interesting history, The word Dixie refers to the South although its origins nay have been in NY. . Dixie was the song of the Confederacy. It was the Confederate army marching song and was played at various events in the Confederate South. I am not sure of the composer. Thought it was some northerner with southern sympathies. No doubt it is a catchy tune. Lincoln famously liked it but the fact that it was the anthem for the slave-holding confederacy made his opinion more notable. I wonder if any of the southern schools use it, today. Certainly, it is of greater import than Old Black Joe. Peace. The composer was Daniel Decatur Emmett. He was born in Ohio (and his parents were from Virginia). It was written and published in NYC in the 1850s. It was first used in minstrel shows as a "walk-about" tune. It was clearly "a" song of the Confederacy but was not the only one. The South never adopted any song as a "national anthem." There could have been more support for "Bonnie Blue Flag" if they had. Since there was no Southern government when it was written, and because it was a parody of a love song, what it later became should not necessarily make it objectionable. After all, at every meeting of the German-American Bund the Stars and Stripes were prominently displayed. Some who want our national flag changed do bring that us as one of their objections. Also, there were "slave-holders" in the North before and during the war not just in the Confederacy. Also, it was the stars and stripes that was flown over American ships carrying slaves to America - not the Stars and Bars. It certainly carries "baggage" and if some are hurt by its use, that should be enough reason to stop playing it as a regular tune.
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Post by rgs318 on May 29, 2022 8:24:01 GMT -5
PS: According to the most common explanation of the name, $10 notes issued before 1860 by the Citizens' Bank of New Orleans and used largely by French-speaking residents were imprinted with dix (French: “ten”) on the reverse side—hence the land of Dixies, or Dixie Land, which applied to Louisiana and eventually the whole South.
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Post by mm67 on May 29, 2022 9:17:58 GMT -5
PS: According to the most common explanation of the name, $10 notes issued before 1860 by the Citizens' Bank of New Orleans and used largely by French-speaking residents were imprinted with dix (French: “ten”) on the reverse side—hence the land of Dixies, or Dixie Land, which applied to Louisiana and eventually the whole South. Unsurprisingly, the seemingly most simple can be quite complicated. For instance, Dixie.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 29, 2022 18:53:09 GMT -5
Augustine P. Conniff was born January 1879. When he was 18 and living just outside of Wilkes Barre Pa, the Lattimer Massacre occurred. Lattimer was about 25 miles to the south of Wilkes Barre. Mule drivers who worked the mines in that area protested that because the mule yard had been moved to a more distant location, they were now working an extra two hours a day, for which they received no pay. This grew into a more widespread protest over low pay and working conditions. Miners earned $300 a year, about a $1 a day. The miners working the anthracite mines of eastern PA, in the region around Wilkes Barre, were initially Irish, who were eventually largely replaced by even cheaper labor, --immigrants from Eastern Europe and Italy.
A large group of unarmed, protesting miners were marching down a public road when they were met by a contingent of Coal and Iron police (private police forces organized and paid by mine and foundry owners) and sheriff's deputies. The police opened fire, 19 miners were killed five later died of their wounds, and 35-40 were wounded, many shot in the back. The dead were Poles, Lithuanians, and Slovaks. There was an immediate uproar, even in the local press. Subsequently, the sheriff and over 100 deputies were arrested. After a trial, they were all acquitted, which sparked another uproar, though of a lower volume.
The Lattimer Massacre directly led to the formation of the United Mine Workers Union, and by 1902, nearly 150,000 miners in the anthracite coal region of Pennsylvania were members of the union. The first head of the UMW was John Mitchell, a second generation Irish immigrant.
In May 1992, as Conniff was completing his senior year at Holy Cross, the UMW went on strike throughout the coal region. The entire Pennsylvania National Guard, 10,000 strong, was called out and sent to the region. President Teddy Roosevelt became involved. The strike was settled in the fall of that year.
Conniff wrote the alma mater, in 1903. After graduating from law school, he became a labor lawyer, working on behalf of mine workers. He died in Washington DC. At the time of his death he was general counsel to a Federal agency with oversight over America's coal mine workers. _______________
So, I assign a high probability that the melody for the alma mater was taken from "The Red Flag", the anthem of socialists and social democrats by 1890, and which he may have heard sung in Wilkes Barre in the fall of 1902, as miners marched and held rallies. His use of 'The Red Flag' at that particular time would comport nicely with a Jesuit emphasis on Social Justice.
I also assign a high probability to the possibility that he sang the melody at Holy Cross, in a classics course, --perhaps a course on the lyric poetry of Horace. Horace is Horatio. The original (16th Century) German student song is "Lauriger Horatio", or Horace crowned with laurels, --the students singing his praise in Latin for the advice he gave.
I assign a very low probability that be borrowed the melody from 'O Maryland, My Maryland' This did not become the state song until 1939, which, given the lyrics, speaks volumes about 20th Century Maryland. He is unlikely to have ever heard it sung in eastern Pennsylvania circa 1900.
Finally, I assign a very low probability to "O Tannenbaum", the German musical tribute to a fir tree. It did not morph into a Christmas tree until later in the 20th Century. If he had indeed heard it sung, it likely would have been in a German Catholic church in Wilkes Barre. Conniff is a variant of the Irish surname, Cunniff.
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Post by mm67 on May 29, 2022 19:38:36 GMT -5
Pak Once again, you did it. Your post sparked my curiosity. I'm trying to get the timeline straight. The infamous Lattimer Massacre occurred in 1897. Young Mr Conniff was 18 at that time. Is it accurate to assume he was a Freshman at HC in Sept., '97? This was the month of "The Massacre." He would have been in the class of '01. Or, did he begin his studies at HC in 1898, Class of '02. The horror of Lattimore was still fresh in his heart & mind. Your weaving together the "Red Flag" to Mamie & "Lauriger Horatio" to Alma Mater was brilliant. Maybe the school should erect a statue of Joe Hill and replace Crusader with Hilltoppers. Thank you very much.
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Post by longsuffering on May 29, 2022 19:38:54 GMT -5
The BC rendition was "Holy Cross, oh Holy Cross, thou art full of apple sauce" not that any current BC students would know that.
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Post by mm67 on May 29, 2022 19:50:54 GMT -5
FWIW Here is the rendition I heard: O Holy Cross, O Holy Cross all they eat is apple sauce. They eat it mornin' noon & night. They even eat it when they're tight. O Holy Cross on bended knee, kiss the ass of old BC.
Sort of catchy, isn't it?
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2022 19:56:06 GMT -5
Pak. Look up the Molly McGuires & the history of that region in Pa. coal mines. Ive toured the Mauch Chunk area.The miners were paid in company money & then that had to be used for rent, food then paid back to mine owners.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 30, 2022 9:23:59 GMT -5
Pak Once again, you did it. Your post sparked my curiosity. I'm trying to get the timeline straight. The infamous Lattimer Massacre occurred in 1897. Young Mr Conniff was 18 at that time. Is it accurate to assume he was a Freshman at HC in Sept., '97? This was the month of "The Massacre." He would have been in the class of '01. Or, did he begin his studies at HC in 1898, Class of '02. The horror of Lattimore was still fresh in his heart & mind. Your weaving together the "Red Flag" to Mamie & "Lauriger Horatio" to Alma Mater was brilliant. Maybe the school should erect a statue of Joe Hill and replace Crusader with Hilltoppers. Thank you very much. He was class of 1902. Would have enrolled in 1898 as the class of '02. Graduated at age 23. He wrote the lyrics for the alma mater in '03. While his father was the superintendent of schools for Plains Township, the years 1893-1897 saw the worst depression in U.S. history up to that time. This was the depression that ended the Gilded Age. The unemployment rate in some states appears to have exceeded the rate for the Great Depression 30+ years later. So perhaps he deferred applying because of the 1893-97 depression. I went looking to see if there is a yearbook for the class of 1902 that is on-line, but there is none. Don't even know if there is a yearbook. Did find these tidbits though. "1902 340 students are enrolled, making Holy Cross the largest Jesuit college in the nation; Boston College is a distant second." "Jan. 15, 1901 First intercollegiate basketball game is held: Harvard 20, Holy Cross 10. The game took place at Mechanics Hall." "1903 First varsity football game is played on campus on the newly finished athletic field at the base of the hill: Holy Cross 36, Amherst 0." So one can clearly see the dogs that HC wanted to run with back then!
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Post by mm67 on May 30, 2022 9:33:43 GMT -5
Pak Once again, you did it. Your post sparked my curiosity. I'm trying to get the timeline straight. The infamous Lattimer Massacre occurred in 1897. Young Mr Conniff was 18 at that time. Is it accurate to assume he was a Freshman at HC in Sept., '97? This was the month of "The Massacre." He would have been in the class of '01. Or, did he begin his studies at HC in 1898, Class of '02. The horror of Lattimore was still fresh in his heart & mind. Your weaving together the "Red Flag" to Mamie & "Lauriger Horatio" to Alma Mater was brilliant. Maybe the school should erect a statue of Joe Hill and replace Crusader with Hilltoppers. Thank you very much. He was class of 1902. Would have enrolled in 1898 as the class of '02. Graduated at age 23. He wrote the lyrics for the alma mater in '03. While his father was the superintendent of schools for Plains Township, the years 1893-1897 saw the worst depression in U.S. history up to that time. This was the depression that ended the Gilded Age. The unemployment rate in some states appears to have exceeded the rate for the Great Depression 30+ years later. So perhaps he deferred applying because of the 1893-97 depression. I went looking to see if there is a yearbook for the class of 1902 that is on-line, but there is none. Don't even know if there is a yearbook. Did find these tidbits though. "1902 340 students are enrolled, making Holy Cross the largest Jesuit college in the nation; Boston College is a distant second." "Jan. 15, 1901 First intercollegiate basketball game is held: Harvard 20, Holy Cross 10. The game took place at Mechanics Hall." "1903 First varsity football game is played on campus on the newly finished athletic field at the base of the hill: Holy Cross 36, Amherst 0." So one can clearly see the dogs that HC wanted to run with back then! Amazing! Thank you.
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Post by longsuffering on May 30, 2022 19:54:46 GMT -5
Pak Once again, you did it. Your post sparked my curiosity. I'm trying to get the timeline straight. The infamous Lattimer Massacre occurred in 1897. Young Mr Conniff was 18 at that time. Is it accurate to assume he was a Freshman at HC in Sept., '97? This was the month of "The Massacre." He would have been in the class of '01. Or, did he begin his studies at HC in 1898, Class of '02. The horror of Lattimore was still fresh in his heart & mind. Your weaving together the "Red Flag" to Mamie & "Lauriger Horatio" to Alma Mater was brilliant. Maybe the school should erect a statue of Joe Hill and replace Crusader with Hilltoppers. Thank you very much. He was class of 1902. Would have enrolled in 1898 as the class of '02. Graduated at age 23. He wrote the lyrics for the alma mater in '03. While his father was the superintendent of schools for Plains Township, the years 1893-1897 saw the worst depression in U.S. history up to that time. This was the depression that ended the Gilded Age. The unemployment rate in some states appears to have exceeded the rate for the Great Depression 30+ years later. So perhaps he deferred applying because of the 1893-97 depression. I went looking to see if there is a yearbook for the class of 1902 that is on-line, but there is none. Don't even know if there is a yearbook. Did find these tidbits though. "1902 340 students are enrolled, making Holy Cross the largest Jesuit college in the nation; Boston College is a distant second." "Jan. 15, 1901 First intercollegiate basketball game is held: Harvard 20, Holy Cross 10. The game took place at Mechanics Hall." "1903 First varsity football game is played on campus on the newly finished athletic field at the base of the hill: Holy Cross 36, Amherst 0." So one can clearly see the dogs that HC wanted to run with back then! Pak, my maternal grandfather graduated from HC in 1898 and in the early 70s I was directed to a shelf in the bottom of the stacks in Dinand Library. I found yearbooks for all four of his years as I recall. One thing I remember is the HC proms and banquets were held at the Bancroft Hotel downtown. That tall narrow building is still functioning as apartments today I believe. I also responded to a call for volunteers to help in the archives several years ago. They were at that time in the attic of Dinand and I think they would have every yearbook.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 31, 2022 6:42:52 GMT -5
He was class of 1902. Would have enrolled in 1898 as the class of '02. Graduated at age 23. He wrote the lyrics for the alma mater in '03. While his father was the superintendent of schools for Plains Township, the years 1893-1897 saw the worst depression in U.S. history up to that time. This was the depression that ended the Gilded Age. The unemployment rate in some states appears to have exceeded the rate for the Great Depression 30+ years later. So perhaps he deferred applying because of the 1893-97 depression. I went looking to see if there is a yearbook for the class of 1902 that is on-line, but there is none. Don't even know if there is a yearbook. Did find these tidbits though. "1902 340 students are enrolled, making Holy Cross the largest Jesuit college in the nation; Boston College is a distant second." "Jan. 15, 1901 First intercollegiate basketball game is held: Harvard 20, Holy Cross 10. The game took place at Mechanics Hall." "1903 First varsity football game is played on campus on the newly finished athletic field at the base of the hill: Holy Cross 36, Amherst 0." So one can clearly see the dogs that HC wanted to run with back then! Pak, my maternal grandfather graduated from HC in 1898 and in the early 70s I was directed to a shelf in the bottom of the stacks in Dinand Library. I found yearbooks for all four of his years as I recall. One thing I remember is the HC proms and banquets were held at the Bancroft Hotel downtown. That tall narrow building is still functioning as apartments today I believe. I also responded to a call for volunteers to help in the archives several years ago. They were at that time in the attic of Dinand and I think they would have every yearbook. Thanks!! I did find excerpts for the Purple Patcher of 1910 on-line. Augustine P. Conniff was listed as vice president of the alumni club of Northeastern PA, for which there was a full roster of officers. There were eight clubs, two of which Pennsylvania clubs. No club for New Jersey There is a hint that the alma mater may have arisen from the alumni, and these clubs. There is no glee club or choir mentioned in the list of clubs and activities at Holy Cross. The conclusion of the description of the alumni clubs in the Purple Patcher states: The description of athletics in the Purple Patcher. So, no more bitching and moaning from the peanut gallery, thank you.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 31, 2022 9:46:58 GMT -5
A stanza in the Georgetown fight song. The Georgetown alma mater is to the score of "Men of Harlech" the chorus, Men of Harlech, the original, in both godforsaken Welsh and English, --not the version sung by Michael Caine and Stanley Baker in a movie about a long-ago battle in which the characters played by Caine and Baker were awarded the Victoria Cross, the highest British military honor.
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Post by longsuffering on May 31, 2022 11:27:56 GMT -5
A stanza in the Georgetown fight song. The Georgetown alma mater is to the score of "Men of Harlech" the chorus, Men of Harlech, the original, in both godforsaken Welsh and English, --not the version sung by Michael Caine and Stanley Baker in a movie about a long-ago battle in which the characters played by Caine and Baker were awarded the Victoria Cross, the highest British military honor. Could they have any more Ivy Envy?🙂
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Post by Chu Chu on May 31, 2022 11:39:50 GMT -5
"the life of the athlete at Holy Cross is no bed of thistledown."
Indeed! Could not this be our new, resurrected recruiting mantra?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 31, 2022 12:03:53 GMT -5
"the life of the athlete at Holy Cross is no bed of thistledown."
Indeed! Could not this be our new, resurrected recruiting mantra? No recruit offered unless he/she can define thistledown!
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Post by rgs318 on May 31, 2022 12:20:13 GMT -5
A stanza in the Georgetown fight song. The Georgetown alma mater is to the score of "Men of Harlech" the chorus, Men of Harlech, the original, in both godforsaken Welsh and English, --not the version sung by Michael Caine and Stanley Baker in a movie about a long-ago battle in which the characters played by Caine and Baker were awarded the Victoria Cross, the highest British military honor. Outstanding rendition of that powerful Welch Hymn. Thank you for posting it. (The words from Zulu were written for the film because they could not get permission to use the actual words in the movie.)
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Post by WCHC Sports on May 31, 2022 12:55:06 GMT -5
How popular Holy Cross was to be named in A) another school's fight song stanzas, and B) among the Ivies, no less.
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Post by newfieguy74 on May 31, 2022 13:04:26 GMT -5
My feelings for HC run deep but I've never cared much for our alma mater, or any other alma mater. I find them corny and irrelevant. I am enjoying this discussion however. I also used to enjoy reminding my brother, a Cornell grad, of an apocryphal stanza to their alma mater:
High above Cayuga waters There's an awful smell Some say it's Cayuga waters I sat it's Cornell
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jun 1, 2022 9:33:18 GMT -5
The earliest HC yearbook on-line is for the class of 1907. There is a glee club, and a minstrel club. A photograph of the minstrel club shows performers in blackface. The first minstrel show was apparently in 1906, in Fenwick Theater. Frontspiece for this section of the yearbook is a caricature of a grinning Negro and a banjo. Mamie Reilly not listed on the program. Perhaps it was included in the 'pot-pourri of popular melodies'.
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Post by sader1970 on Jun 1, 2022 10:07:16 GMT -5
OK, down the rabbit hole we go. '74, you have the tune correct but here are the alternative words for St. Anthony's High School, circa 1962-66, in Smithtown (a/k/a "San Remo" for cache), NY
High above the new math classroom There's an awful smell. Some say it's DeMarco's bathroom, Others say No-ell
When he bathes, he needs no water. He just wallows in the dust. You can always tell our brother, He's the one with . . . . crust
Interpretation: The school was initially in one building and the classrooms were converted dorm rooms for Franciscan novitiates. Around '63-'64 an additional pre-fab building was built with 6 new classrooms and one room was devoted to math-only taught by Brother Noel. He was generally agreed to be a sadist who looked for every reason to hit students and stunk to high heavens. One of his favorite things was to put a student in a headlock with the victim's head in or near his armpits. DeMarco was Archie DeMarco, the former Navy lightweight boxing champ who was the Athletic Director. I believe many years later they named a subsequent football field for him long after the school went co-ed and quadrupled in size having absorbed a failing diocesan high school and moving to Huntington.
While I can't remember what happened yesterday (somewhat exaggerated), this little ditty is ingrained in my memory from 56 years ago.
Oh, as for Brother Noel and myself: as I was taking notes from the board (a good thing) and being hard of hearing, he asked me a question which I did not hear but made the mistake of responding "yes, brother?" and he said, "Mr. Nxxxxx, the answer is 'no.'" Come forward. As I got up from my desk to approach him, he said "Class, I don't think Mr. Nxxxxx like me?" The good news was I didn't get the armpit treatment, just a few slaps in the face.
He was a, euphemistically speaking "overweight" and virtually any student could have sent him to the hospital. I swore to myself that if he ever tried to lay a hand on me again that I would beat the sh!t out of him. He apparently sensed that and he never came close to doing that.
That said, he got the last laugh. While my marks were too high to flunk me for the course, he got to mark the NYS regents exam and flunked me with a 64. The only regents test I ever failed and was confident I had a high pass. My parents made me go to summer school as they insisted I not just get my high school diploma but a regents diploma. So, I went to the local public high school for 6 weeks and the first day the teacher says: "Just so we get a level set, if you don't mind, I'd like to ask each of you what your grade was." Go around the room and get to me: "64" (65 is passing). The entire room makes a loud groan including the teacher who then says incredulously "64?!!! That teacher hates you. If I was marking the test, I would either find a way to give you an additional point or look for ways to take away points. No one gets a 64."
Oh, so I don't study a lick during the summer because I already know the stuff and got something like 96 or 98 on my re-take without really trying.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Jun 1, 2022 10:32:26 GMT -5
I enjoyed reading your ditty. The abuse you suffered at the hands of Br. Noel unfortunately rang some bells. At St. John's Prep in Danvers, MA my brother was two years ahead of me. He was a bit less serious about his studies than I. One day in class he was talking and Br. Edgar, young and muscular, walked down the aisle and punched my brother in the mouth, breaking his tooth. The Br. should have been charged with a crime, but I only remember my parents asking my brother why he was talking in class. I also recall corporal punishment by nuns earlier in my education.
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